Telekinesis damage seems high


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With telekinesis you can throw up to 15 items at a target. If I have 15 daggers, and weapon specialization (dagger), do I get +2 damage to each dagger attack? What about smite evil?

For example, is there anything to stop a level 15 tortured crusader paladin with the Telekinetic Mastery item mastery feat using Last Stand and throwing 15 daggers at a single target, each dealing 1d4+30 damage? (15d4+450 damage in the first turn of combat - if all the attacks hit) (I assume there is a reason this can't happen that i've missed?)

Silver Crusade

I don't know about Weapon Specialization or similar feats but Smite Evil would apply I believe.

It's a very neat trick but something you could only do twice at 15th... what "casting" stat would use for it anyway?

Edit: looked it up in Weapon Master's Handbook, it would be Con.

While that is a metric f+%@ton of damage against a single target I don't know quite how useful it would be at 15th. Probably a lot though :3

Silver Crusade

The caveat of needing an item with a constant or daily use that is made using a Transmutation spell of 4th or higher is a bit tricky, have you already found one?


"Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner)"

From the spell description.
I t says standard damage. What exactly is standard damage. To me that means the damage dice of the weapon itself.
It points out no strength bonus, so we can interpret this in two ways:
1. we only do not add strength, but can add other stuff like smite
2. we do not add any bonuses to the damage dice of the weapon at all, and they only stipulated strength as they didn't think about using smite or something.

I think RAW you would indeed be able to do 15d4 + 450 damage.


Something that I was thinking about, does it treat the item's wielder's class level as the class level for telekinesis, or does it use the caster level of the item?

It says:
"You can coax telekinesis from transmutation magic items.

Prerequisite(s): Use Magic Device 5 ranks, base Fortitude save bonus +7.

Benefit(s): You can cause an item that has a transmutation spell of 4th level or higher in its construction requirements to cast telekinesis."

It seems as if the item casts it, not you. So you would use the item's caster level, and stats. It has 0 bab, and 0 casting stat, so would you be making 15 attacks at +0 to hit?

That certainly helps balance the insane damage

Silver Crusade

This thread might be of some help.

Traveler's Any Tooll works, nice!


J4RH34D wrote:
Something that I was thinking about, does it treat the item's wielder's class level as the class level for telekinesis, or does it use the caster level of the item?

Item Mastery feats use your BAB as your caster level.


Brew Bird wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:
Something that I was thinking about, does it treat the item's wielder's class level as the class level for telekinesis, or does it use the caster level of the item?
Item Mastery feats use your BAB as your caster level.

The specific wording of the feat says you make the item cast the spell though, not you. So which caster level do you use? The item's CL or the character's?


J4RH34D wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:
Something that I was thinking about, does it treat the item's wielder's class level as the class level for telekinesis, or does it use the caster level of the item?
Item Mastery feats use your BAB as your caster level.
The specific wording of the feat says you make the item cast the spell though, not you. So which caster level do you use? The item's CL or the character's?

There's an additional section in the book that explains how the Item Mastery feats work in greater detail. It's also on the d20pfsrd here.


Wow, I thought for sure someone would swoop in and say the full BAB+4+Con 15 attacks with double smite wouldn't work. Interesting.


Brew Bird wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:
Something that I was thinking about, does it treat the item's wielder's class level as the class level for telekinesis, or does it use the caster level of the item?
Item Mastery feats use your BAB as your caster level.
The specific wording of the feat says you make the item cast the spell though, not you. So which caster level do you use? The item's CL or the character's?
There's an additional section in the book that explains how the Item Mastery feats work in greater detail. It's also on the d20pfsrd here.

Ok I think you are pointing out this bit: "All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level.

Any spell-like ability‘s save DC is equal to 10 + the spell level + your Constitution modifier. If a spell-like ability calls for a calculation using your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma bonus or modifier, use your Constitution bonus or modifier instead."

Now what that is saying is you gain a spell like ability that does what the item mastery feat allows you to do.

Step 1:
You can activate the Telekentic Mastery item feat as a spell like ability with caster level=BAB.

Step 2:
Lets read the feat we are trying to use, Telekenetic Mastery.
"You can cause an item that has a transmutation spell of 4th level or higher in its construction requirements to cast telekinesis."
Hmm, this seems to say that the item casts the spell, not the player.
The spell like ability Telekentic Mastery allows me to make the item cast the spell.
So, which CL does it use, mine or the items?

The closest example I can think of for this is using a wand.

We all know that when we use a wand to cast a spell (Similar to using the item to cast telekenesis) you use the caster level of the wand, not our own, unless we have specific class abilities that change this.

Therefore I Believe we use the item's CL, as it is casting the spell, not the character

Depending on how close of a parrallel to the wand you draw, you either use your own BAB and con mod, or you would use the item's. This depends on how literally you read "The item ... to cast telekinesis."

I am not sure how I would interpret it exactly.

EDIT

As I read this again "All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level.", it makes me think that depending on how far you extend "All effects" makes a big difference.
If you only classify it as all IMMEDIATE effects, then you only use your CL for making the item cast the spell.
But if you read it as ALL effects for all perpetuity then you would use your BAB as the CL for the CL of the spell as well.

After re-reading I am tempted to say that "All effects" means what it says and as such you would use your BAB as the CL for telekinesis.


J4RH34D wrote:

So, which CL does it use, mine or the items?

The closest example I can think of for this is using a wand.

We all know that when we use a wand to cast a spell (Similar to using the item to cast telekenesis) you use the caster level of the wand, not our own, unless we have specific class abilities that change this....

"All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level." Surely that covers it...?

Step 1: You use Telekinetic mastery, which allows the item to cast the spell as a spell like ability, using "your base attack bonus as the caster level."

The clarification text they added seems pretty clear...


Morbid Eels wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:

So, which CL does it use, mine or the items?

The closest example I can think of for this is using a wand.

We all know that when we use a wand to cast a spell (Similar to using the item to cast telekenesis) you use the caster level of the wand, not our own, unless we have specific class abilities that change this....

"All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level." Surely that covers it...?

I edited my previous post:

"As I read this again "All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level.", it makes me think that depending on how far you extend "All effects" makes a big difference.
If you only classify it as all IMMEDIATE effects, then you only use your CL for making the item cast the spell.
But if you read it as ALL effects for all perpetuity then you would use your BAB as the CL for the CL of the spell as well.

After re-reading I am tempted to say that "All effects" means what it says and as such you would use your BAB as the CL for telekinesis."

So it really does depend on how far you define "All effects"

EDIT

"Step 1: You use Telekinetic mastery, which allows the item to cast the spell as a spell like ability, using "your base attack bonus as the caster level.""

Except by a strict reading it doesnt actually allow you to cast the spell as a spell like ability. It allows you to make the Item cast the spell as a spell like ability

EDIT EDIT

But yes, I agree with you that the most RAW reading is that the spell being cast is an effect of the feat and as such uses your BAB=CL.

However the feat doesn't specify what you treat as the BAB for the purpose effects of the feat. And by a strict reading you are not casting the spell, so you do not use your BAB, but you use your BAB = CL only because it is specified you do.


J4RH34D wrote:

"Step 1: You use Telekinetic mastery, which allows the item to cast the spell as a spell like ability, using "your base attack bonus as the caster level.""

Except by a strict reading it doesnt actually allow you to cast the spell as a spell like ability. It allows you to make the Item cast the spell as a spell like ability

Bolded where I said the exact same thing in what you just quoted me saying. It clearly says the item casts it, using your base attack bonus as the caster level.

Also, you edit a lot.


Morbid Eels wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:

"Step 1: You use Telekinetic mastery, which allows the item to cast the spell as a spell like ability, using "your base attack bonus as the caster level.""

Except by a strict reading it doesnt actually allow you to cast the spell as a spell like ability. It allows you to make the Item cast the spell as a spell like ability

Bolded where I said the exact same thing in what you just quoted me saying. It clearly says the item casts it, using your base attack bonus...

Also, you edit a lot.

I do.

Sorry

I agree, it lets you use your BAB Specifically and only as CL for effects of the feat, which extends to the CL of the spell the item casts.
However, does it tell you anywhere to use your BAB for all efects of the feat? No, it doesnt, so strictly, you would use the BAB of whoever/whatever is casting the spell for BAB purposes of the spell (The attack roll), which by RAW is the item. Not you.

So you use your BA for the CL
But you use the Item's BAB and Stats


J4RH34D wrote:
However, does it tell you anywhere to use your BAB for all efects of the feat? No, it doesnt, so strictly, you would use the BAB of whoever/whatever is casting the spell for BAB purposes of the spell (The attack roll), which by RAW is the item. Not you.

I would assume the item uses your base attack bonus too, otherwise it's a pretty odd to have an item mastery feat that specifically provides telekinesis if it's inherently terrible for it's main purpose. I agree that the RAW doesn't explicitly state one way or the other, though. Wouldn't that also mean that it's the item deciding what aspects of the spell to use / who to attack, by your reading of RAW? (I mean, it does say the item casts the spell, not you. So if it's not based off of you and your stats, then it must be based off the inanimate object's and subject to it's control?)


I agree that it does make it utterly terrible for combat if it doesn't use your BAB for BAB purposes.

I think we agree that by RAW though the item casts the spell and uses your BAB for CL and that is the only difference.
Whether that is intended is highly unlikely.

However it does remove the likelyhood of the insane damage in the OP.
It also makes combat maneuver's less likely.

However, it doesn't effect the "Sustained Force" use of telekenesis.

So it MIGHT be intentional. It allows you to use telekenesis to move stuff around and be all utility like, while limiting it's combat effectiveness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another way to stop the insane damage:
Even if the item uses all of your stats and BAB etc, it is still the one making the attacks. As such your smite does not benefit the attack rolls the item makes, nor their damage.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Technically, yes, by RAW the item is in charge of what effects it causes.
I agree that certainly is not intended in the slightest.


J4RH34D wrote:

Technically, yes, by RAW the item is in charge of what effects it causes.

I agree that certainly is not intended in the slightest.

Wow, spending a feat so that once per day a 0 BAB inanimate object (that doesn't mave the capacity to make decisions) can not decide to cast a spell that uses your BAB as caster level... Excellent!

I'll stick to it being the item+you combined that casts the spell and you dont use the item's non-existent BAB/decision making capabilities, as that's almost certainly what was intended, from logic and the flavor text saying that you use "the item through your force of will and channel the item’s inherent magic through your own body".

Going back to RAW though: You keep drawing parallels to wands, what BAB does a wand of scorching ray use?

Silver Crusade

This is why you try to avoid overly strict RAW readings of things if those readings make things not work.

You use your stuff for the effect, there's no effect in the game to my knowledge where you use your stuff for the casting and then something else for the effect of the spell being cast.

The item has no BAB or CON.


I drew one comparison to the Wand with regards to CL.

Wands also don't use quite the same wording as the feat.
"so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity."
With a wand you cast the spell from the wand, you don't make the wand cast the spell.
Slight difference but an important one.

I agree that this is almost certainly how the rules are intended to work. However this is the rules subforum and as such I am trying to interpret the rules as closely to what they say as I can.

I agree that the intention is probably to use your bab, casting stat, etc. However the feat does not actually allow you to and the overhead only allows you to use your BAB = CL.

So there are a couple of questions and clarifications that need to be answered and made.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You asked if their were any reason's why it might not work.
And I have given you multiple depending on specific readings of the ability.

To itemize my reasons:

1. The feat only allows you to use your BAB for the CL of the spell, it does not make provisions for you to use any of your stats for anything else.(Except for the dc)
2. Even if you are allowed to use your stats, the feat clearly says the item casts the spell, and as such the attack's do not benefit from your smite evil/weapon training/sneak attack.


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Rysky wrote:

This is why you try to avoid overly strict RAW readings of things if those readings make things not work.

You use your stuff for the effect, there's no effect in the game to my knowledge where you use your stuff for the casting and then something else for the effect of the spell being cast.

This.

Also, I'm amending the situation to use a bag of holding as the item, within which 15 butchering axes can be stored... (45d6+450 damage = 607 average damage assuming all hit?)

Silver Crusade

1. This dividing, for lack of a better term, of casting and effect doesn't exist in Pathfinder.

2) Even if this is true, while weapon training and combat feats or Sneak Attack might not apply Smite Evil would since they just apply to any damage rolls you do.


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Rysky wrote:

This is why you try to avoid overly strict RAW readings of things if those readings make things not work.

You use your stuff for the effect, there's no effect in the game to my knowledge where you use your stuff for the casting and then something else for the effect of the spell being cast.

The item has no BAB or CON.

The OP asked for reasons why it might not work, so I specifically went at this with the mindset of devils advocate. I asked myself if I could find any reason why it might not work. I have found two, but they require rather specific readings that are very probably against the intention of the feat, but can easily be read in this way.

In terms of the intention of the feat, I highly doubt the feat is intended to allow a level 15 paladin to do 15d4+450 damage, or a level 15 rogue to do 11*(1d4+8d6) for an average of 335.5.
The damage is a bit too high for me to accept that it was intentional.

Silver Crusade

Morbid Eels wrote:
Rysky wrote:

This is why you try to avoid overly strict RAW readings of things if those readings make things not work.

You use your stuff for the effect, there's no effect in the game to my knowledge where you use your stuff for the casting and then something else for the effect of the spell being cast.

This.

Also, I'm amending the situation to use a bag of holding as the item, within which 15 butchering axes can be stored... (45d6+450 damage = 607 average damage assuming all hit?)

While amusing I don't think you can store shapr/pointy things in a Bag of Holding?

And then you would still have to take time dumping them all out before using the ability.


Aw drat.

Silver Crusade

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Ah! I knew there was a FAQ about this already.

Weapon Attacks and Special Abilities: Many places in the rules use the term “ranged weapon attacks” and similar terms, but how does this apply to spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities (heretoafter called special abilities) that require ranged attacks but might not necessarily seem like weapons? wrote:


In general, special abilities that require attack rolls benefit and suffer from all modifiers affecting attack rolls even if those modifiers mention weapon attack rolls (such as the penalty for firing into melee, the bonus on attack rolls from Point-Blank Shot and inspire courage, and the like), unless the spell specifically calls out that it doesn’t apply them (for instance spiritual weapon calls out that it isn’t affected by feats and combat actions, but it would still have to deal with cover, and firing into melee if ranged).

When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack. For instance, if a spell or special ability launched a dozen different ranged attacks simultaneously, only one (of the user’s choice) would receive bonus damage. This doesn’t apply on area effects with the rare potential for extraneous attack rolls, like fireball. However, there is a category of abilities that deserve a special note: Abilities like Arcane Strike that specifically enhance a character’s weapon or weapons themselves never apply to special abilities (with the exception of special abilities like the warlock’s mystic bolts that specifically call out that Arcane Strike applies).

In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.” The exception is abilities that deal damage when a creature touches or hits you in melee (for instance, the occultis’s energy ward focus power), which should also deal damage when a creature makes a melee touch attack against you but rarely call them out directly.

Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.

Abilities that modify the action usage of ranged weapon attacks or require their own special action almost never work with special abilities, since special abilities require their own actions. For instance, Pinpoint Targeting wouldn’t work with scorching ray or the soundstriker’s weird words because each of them requires its own action to activate and thus can’t be part of the feat’s specific standard action. Rare exceptions include mystic bolts and kinetic blade, which can specifically be used as part of other actions.

So you would get the bonus smite damage only once, not for every weapon.


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Oh thank god, thank you rysky. A reason why not I can get behind.

Silver Crusade

Np ^w^


Rysky, on your rebuttal to number 2. The issue is that by RAW you are not the one making the damage rolls, the item is.

And Morbid, as long as the items weigh less than 25 lbs each you can upscale them.
If we use deuling swords for 1d8 at 3lb,
That goes
1d8 3lb
2d6 6lb
3d6 12lb
4d6? 24lb

That means we can do 60d6 + others.

Silver Crusade

J4RH34D wrote:

Rysky, on your rebuttal to number 2. The issue is that by RAW you are not the one making the damage rolls, the item is.

And Morbid, as long as the items weigh less than 25 lbs each you can upscale them.
If we use deuling swords for 1d8 at 3lb,
That goes
1d8 3lb
2d6 6lb
3d6 12lb
4d6? 24lb

That means we can do 60d6 + others.

Smite Evil works on a wand of Magic Missile , it'll work on this. And the items if they are weapons use their weapon damage, not their by weight damage.


I am glad we have a reason that doesn't require me to be intentionally obtuse and overly pedantic in my reading of the rules.

I forgot about that FAQ -_-

You can still get 60d6 + 30 for an average of 240, which is still rather high.
You could carry them around on a cart, or if you don't mind making a ruccus you could drag them behind you and just cut the string tying them all together and then throw them.


That is their weapon damage. Remember going from a medium to a large weapon increases their damage.

This is just a gargantuan dueling sword.

As per smite using on the wand, refer to my post upthread that deals with that.
When you use a wand you cast the spell from the wand, with the feat technically you make the item cast the spell.
That is a slight but important difference.
With a wand you cast the spell, with this feat, you are not.

EDIT
Relevent text upthread
"Wands also don't use quite the same wording as the feat.
"so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity."
With a wand you cast the spell from the wand, you don't make the wand cast the spell.
Slight difference but an important one."

Silver Crusade

J4RH34D wrote:

I am glad we have a reason that doesn't require me to be intentionally obtuse and overly pedantic in my reading of the rules.

Yeah, don't do that, that's just bad.
J4RH34D wrote:
That is their weapon damage. Remember going from a medium to a large weapon increases their damage.
I thought you were talking about the "other objects" option.
J4RH34D wrote:
When you use a wand you cast the spell from the wand, with the feat technically you make the item cast the spell.
J4RH34D wrote:

With a wand you cast the spell from the wand, you don't make the wand cast the spell.

Slight difference but an important one."

There's no difference at all, you're overthinking to the point of causing a problem when there isn't one.


Except there is a difference and an important one.

Are you saying that when a intelligent item casts a spell it uses its wielder's stats?

We have a similar situation here. We are making an item cast a spell. It's just not an intelegent item.

Most magic items I am aware of allow you to cast the spell. This feat is different


I think the easiest way to imagine my thought process is to change "item" in the feat to "a nearby spellcaster capable of casting the spell".

If we made a different entity cast the spell obviously we would use their stats.

In the feat we are making a different entity, the item, cast the spell.


J4RH34D wrote:

Except there is a difference and an important one.

Are you saying that when a intelligent item casts a spell it uses its wielder's stats?

I hate to rejoin this awful debate, but I do read that "Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers" implying normal magical items' owners are the ones that activate their powers. Not sure if that's the distinction you're looking for. There's also "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores." Whereas non-intelligent items dont, and aren't considered creatures and therefore don't have BAB and can't actually cast anything. Meaning it's the character that does all the work, especially when it comes to making attacks and controlling said spells. The line about using your BAB as the caster level seems to exist to improve the spell's caster level, you don't restrict the spellcasting's aiming and decision making to that of an inanimate brainless object just because it doesn't say you don't...


The issue is that there is no correct parralel I can find to this feat.

I can't find anything anywhere that says it makes an item cast a spell besides this feat.
So the only comparison I can make is intelligent items which can cast spells themselves and use their own stats.
Even normal magic items use their own CL most of the time.

This is a unique case as far as I am aware.
We have an item that can not usually cast spells being made to cast a spell. The only rules we have for items casting spells is intelligent items...


J4RH34D wrote:

The issue is that there is no correct parralel I can find to this feat.

I can't find anything anywhere that says it makes an item cast a spell besides this feat.
So the only comparison I can make is intelligent items which can cast spells themselves and use their own stats.
Even normal magic items use their own CL most of the time.

This is a unique case as far as I am aware.
We have an item that can not usually cast spells being made to cast a spell. The only rules we have for items casting spells is intelligent items...

But the parallel is right there, it even lists what separates it from a normal magic item* (the caster level etc), and intelligent items list what separates them from other magic items, including these. (It seems like you're saying a horse is more comparable to a penguin than a pony.) Seeing as you're fixating on what it doesn't explicitly say:

1: Where does it say that when you activate a normal command word magic item that it isn't the item casting it's spell?
2: Where does it say that said normal command word magic item specifically uses/doesn't use your BAB?

*Even in the first line it says it's "similar to activating a command word item", so we can clearly see the intent for it to function similarly to a normal magic item (with it's given item mastery modifications) rather than being it's own sentient casting creature. Especially given it lacks all of the intelligent item text about it being its own creature, having its own stats and being able to cast it's own abilities.


I am saying using this feat is more akin to an intelligent item casting a spell than it is to the character using a wand.

A wand is an example of a magic item that the player uses to cast a spell.
A necklace of fireballs is an item a character uses to emulate a spell.
Most magic items are used by the character to do something.

In this feat it differs. The character isn't using the feat to do something but is instead making an item do something.

I use a ladder to climb ten ft. That is how items normally work.

In this case I am making a magic item climb 10 ft.There is a difference in who is performing the action.
When I use something I am doing the action. When I make something else do it, it is performing the action.


No. I repeat:

1: Where does it say that when you activate a normal command word magic item that it isn't the item casting it's spell? (Surely it makes sense that the character "activates" the item, hence all the activation wording in the magic items section, which then casts the spell, just like this feat allows. Meaning it functions in the same way except where specified in the item mastery text.)
2: Where does it say that said normal command word magic item specifically uses/doesn't use your BAB?


I agree with you on the intent. However that is not what the wording actually says.

It says the item casts it so the item casts it. That is indisputable.

I found an item that has similar text.
Ring if the ram

Not that it is a non intelligent item and it makes an attack roll itself.
The character forces it to do something.


It doesn't define anywhere in general if an item uses your BAB. A tentacle cloak gives YOU tentacles YOU can attack with so you use YOUR abilities.

The ring of the ram maKes an attack itself (and has to call out to use your CL for bab).

The stats you use depend on what is performing the action unless specified otherwise (ring of the ram uses CL for bab and the feat tells you to use BAB for CL).


J4RH34D wrote:

I found an item that has similar text.

Ring if the ram
J4RH34D wrote:
"The ring of the ram maKes an attack itself (and has to call out to use your CL for bab)."

Check again on that, it uses it's own caster level as its a base attack bonus. If you're saying the Item mastery items work the same way, the BAB would equal its caster level which equals your BAB thanks to the item mastery text.

Anyway, I didn't really ask for an example of an item that makes a special attack roll using an improvised BAB based on it's caster level. I asked different questions, specifically about command word items that cast spells.

I agree that unless specified otherwise (like the ram ring's special improvised CL BAB) you use the stats of whatever is performing the action, provided it's sentient and the one choosing to do the action.

Sass:
My previous questions still stand, but out of curiosity, if your character shoots a crossbow, do you use the crossbow's BAB instead of the character's? (You know, because the character only activated the crossbow, whereas the crossbow actually fired the bolt?)


You are using the crossbow to shoot, you are not making the crossbow shoot.

1. It doesn't say that anywhere.
Again it depends on the specefic item.
A use activated wand for example:
"Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole."

The character is casting the spell from the wand.

2. Again it doesn't say that anywhere and depends on the wording of the item being used.


We have examples of items where the item says we use the item to do something wands and we have an item where we make an item do something ring of the ram

With wands we know we make the roll. With the ring we know the ring makes the roll.

The feat is closer to the ring than to wands.


J4RH34D wrote:

1. It doesn't say that anywhere.

Again it depends on the specefic item.
A use activated wand for example:

While we're at it, you said so yourself "With wands we know we make the roll." but there is no text to say that's any different for the majority of magical items. The character that uses the wand isn't able to cast the spell from her own body, the spell is still coming from the wand, hence why "To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area." So the Character is clearly activating the wand which then casts the spell. Which is why even non-spellcasters can activate wands and the like. They're functionally identical to most other magic items in this regard - and the wand contains no special text to differentiate itself from other magic items. The only time you wouldn't use the character's own BAB for a magic item is when it's specifically called out, such as with the ring.


As I have said time and again I know I am wrong by RAI. I want to make that clear again.

Again there is no text anywhere that says what stats to use except where it says that you use your stats when you do something.
When you use a wand, "[you] [cast] a spell from a wand". That means that you use your stats because you are using the wand to do something.

Now when you activate the ring, or activate the feat, you make the item do something. It is doing it so it uses it's stats.

It is specific pedantry and not 100% of people will read it this way 100% of the time.

You asked for reasons why it might not work, so I have shown you a reason why it might not work, if you read the RAW in this way.

You do not read it this way, and I honestly don't either, but it is feasible to read it this way.


I still can't find where it explicitly says you cast the spell after activating a wand.

I can only find instances of "activating" a wand and other magic items, and that the spell is always "from a wand" rather than it saying the spell is from the character. Seeing as I'm sure when you use a wand you do use your own stats I can't see why other magic items would be any different unless they're specifically called it out as being so. (Such as for the ram ring)


It isn't specified anywhere.
So it has to be inferred.

"Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity."

To infer missing subjects we need to find out who the sentence is talking about.
"casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action" Lets look at this bit here. Who can spend an action? "The person using the wand" is the answer that makes the most sense.

So we stick that in wherever a subject would go once we start aprsing the sentence bit by biy.

"Wands use the spell trigger activation method." The wand is the subject there, that parses fine as a sentence.

"so casting a spell from a wand" This doesn't parse without adding a subject, so we add our subject. We also need to adjust "casting" to "casts"

"so [The person using the wand] cast[s] a spell from a wand"

The last phrase has to be parsed as well "is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity."

This becomes "[This] is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity."

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