Howdy folks!
I've been attempting a few fixes for balance and flavor around my current campaigns and I've come upon what I consider a problem with the Bloodrager class. it just doesn't seem [At least to myself] to fit the niche it was meant to, It's honestly a straight upgrade from Barbarian if the Primalist and Untouchable Rager archetypes are allowed, but even banning these would still leave me with a class that in my opinion is just Barbarian+.
So to the meat of what I need advice with, I don't want to totally nerf or make it unusable as a class, but neither do I want to have a class that seems to take purpose away from another, in this case that being Bloodrager taking away Barbarian's place. So I'd like some suggestions on maybe leaning Bloodrager closer to it's other parent class, Sorcerer, as to give it a more unique place that doesn't step on Barb's toes.
My only firm limitation is that I'd like to keep it at 4th casting as Skald already fits the 6th level slot for rage casters.
It's a big question on how to add/take away from the class in order to reshape it into a more Sorcerer-like Rager but if there's hope to be found anywhere it's on here!
All suggestions welcome and please be brutally honest if you disagree with any of my previous statements.
Personally I see the attitude that the original version of a class must never be superceded as the problem here. The unchained rogue works better than the original rogue and that's a good thing. The bloodrager gives the 'barbarian' a solid reason not to dump charisma, and a way to interact with the magic system and that too is a good thing IMO. The original barbarian still exists for those who want to play with those limitations.
That said, if you nerfed the bloodrage a bit and gave them more spell slots you could make a more separate place for the two classes.
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Do you use the unchained barbarian? Have the bloodrager use the unchained version of rage to differentiate the two.
Give them cantrips.
Change their good save from Fort to Will. (And their bloodrage bonus from Will to Fort)
I don't really agree that the bloodrager needs tweaking to differentiate it from the barbarian. But, there are some small things to make it feel more like a sorcerer.
Then don't allow primalist and untouchable rager. That is a simple fix.
You can do a lot of things with blood rager that make them great, even if you don't use that stuff (I often go with various types of reach stuff, which can make up for not getting pounce).
A lot of the bloodlines come with great stuff prepackaged, so it isn't hard to make them separate from the barbarian when you stop them from grabbing barbarian rage powers.
Aberrant has HUUUUGE reach.
abyssal has tons of str and auto enlarge person.
arcane has the ability to get a ton of buffs that apply the instant you rage (Also, anti caster stuff; once you can auto cast your spell buffs at level 10, they become a nightmare for casters when you longarm).
I am not as familiar with other bloodlines that do not start with A, but I am sure a lot of them have neat stuff too.
I have played both a barbarian and a bloodrager. If it weren't for the bloodline, bloodrager would feel like an arcane archetype for barbarian. The choice of bloodline adds distinction.
So, how about the following:
1) Bloodrage no longer give a morale bonus to Strength or Constitution. Nor does it prevent skill use. At 6th level, a new Improved Bloodrage ability gives a +2 morale bonus to Strength or Constitution. At 11th level, Greater Bloodrage increase the morale bonus to +4. At 20th level, Mighty Bloodrage increase that to +6.
2) The bloodline powers are made stronger to make up for the lower morale bonus during bloodrage.
3) Expand the bloodrager spell list with more sorcerer/wizard spells, including every spell up to 4th level that has an attack roll.
4) Add cantrips at 1st level.
With stronger bloodline powers, Primalists won't be so quick to swap them out.
I have to Disagree with your assessment of the class.
The fact they can cast spells, Has different skills, Uses bloodlines and powers make them totally different than a barbarian.
They also should roleplay differently than a brain-damaged potato which tends to be the Playstyle of AM SMASH types.
If you have a problem with them getting Rage powers then ban Primalist. As far as DR that comes built into the in several forms. Spells and Abilities. Stoneskin is on the Bloodrager list as is Resinous skin.
Many of the Bloodline powers do things a Barbarian can not. Especially the Aberrant and Arcane Bloodlines. Which are the 2 strongest bloodlines IMHO.
Also, the Rage mechanic is already different as Bloodrage is an SU rage and Regular rage is an EX rage. Where a Barbarian would gladly fight in an antimagic field a Bloodrager might try to find a way around such impediments.
The Bloodrager also has access to pick up a familiar on many of the bloodlines which can also bring up great RP as well as being different.
I have to Disagree with your assessment of the class.
The fact they can cast spells, Has different skills, Uses bloodlines and powers make them totally different than a barbarian.
They also should roleplay differently than a brain-damaged potato which tends to be the Playstyle of AM SMASH types.
+1 for all these points. There was an interesting thing which I saw once (but now of course can't find) that argued that bloodragers, particularly the arcane bloodline, were more like magus(maguses, magi,???) than they were like barbarians.
I have to Disagree with your assessment of the class.
The fact they can cast spells, Has different skills, Uses bloodlines and powers make them totally different than a barbarian.
They also should roleplay differently than a brain-damaged potato which tends to be the Playstyle of AM SMASH types.
If you have a problem with them getting Rage powers then ban Primalist.
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The Bloodrager also has access to pick up a familiar on many of the bloodlines which can also bring up great RP as well as being different.
Barbarians and bloodragers both learn Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Survival, and Swim. Barbarians also learn Knowledge (nature). Bloodragers also learn Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft. Their class skills differ only a little. Their class skill lists have a cosine similarity of 86%. For comparison, the barbarian's and fighter's class skills have a cosine similarity of 70%.
A bloodline is just a name without its bloodline powers, bloodline feats, and bloodline bonus spells, so counting bloodlines and powers as two separate differences seems exaggerated. Nonetheless, the powers, feats, and bonus spells are three differences.
I never played an AM SMASH barbarian. My gnome barbarian Muffin in a Serpent's Skull campaign was a wilderness survival expert with Con 25 and Raging Climber, Raging Leaper, Raging Swimmer, and Night Vision rage powers. Her specialty in combat was deliberately provoking an attack of opportunity and dodging it with her Mobility feat to allow herself one safe combat maneuver with her glaive and give fellow party members a safe opportunity to surround the foe. My human bloodrager GMPC Val Baine in my Iron Gods campaign is a crafter with a clockwork familiar giving her +2 to Craft. She fights with a pistol in one hand and a +1 adamantine saber in the other. She made both weapons herself.
My barbarian and bloodrager characters are more similar to each other than they are to the AM SMASH barbarian. I like playing support characters.
Primalist has some non-abusive uses. My bloodrager Val Baine has two archetypes: a homebrew archetype to give her firearm proficiency and the Mending cantrip to repair her firearm, and Primalist. Val gave up her 1st-level Elemental Air bloodline power to gain her familiar. Unfortunately, the 12th-level Elemental Air bloodline power is essentially, "Your 1st-level power grows stronger." To avoid a dead 12th-level bloodline power, she used Primalist to swap it out for two rage powers, Reckless Abandon and Ghost Rager (Ghost Rager no longer requires Superstition).
If you wanted to make the Bloodrager sufficiently different, you could give it 3/4ths BAB, 6th level casting from the Bloodrager/Magus list, Bard spell progression, and give them a second good save (will save probably).
Keep the rest of their abilities the same. Profit.
Krugdork called out the Primalist and Untouchable archetypes for bloodrager. Primalist archetype makes bloodrager class more like barbarian class by removing some bloodline powers and adding some rage powers. Untouchable archetype removes spellcasting from bloodragers to add spell resistance, which is inconveniently mandatory like saves of the barbarians's Superstition rage power.
Thus, we have two archetypes that make the bloodrager more like the barbarian. Do we have any archetypes that make the bloodrager more like the sorcerer? Crossblooded bloodrager combine two bloodlines like Crossblooded sorcerer, but that is an archetype resembling an archetype. Enlightened bloodrager gains cantrips, but at the cost of bloodline bonus spells and two bloodline powers. Did I miss any others?
Let me hastily throw together an archetype that adds more sorcerer abilities. It is probably unbalanced, but it does give a taste of a bloodrager more like a sorcerer.
Split Expression archetype
Sorcerous Powers (Su): The bloodrager against the bloodline powers of the sorcerer bloodline of the sane name as the bloodrager's bloodline, in addition to his bloodrager bloodline powers. These sorcerer bloodline powers count the bloodrager level as sorcerer levels for their effect. They do not require bloodraging to use. If a bloodrager bloodline power and a sorcerer bloodline power have effects that could stack, such as the Aberrant Bloodrager's Abnormal Reach increasing reach and the Aberrant Sorcerer's Long Limbs increasing reach, then they stack. Likewise, at 12th level the bloodrager Unusual Anatomy 50% chance to ignore critical hits or sneak attacks stacks with the sorcerer Unusual Anatomy 25% chance to give a 75% chance.
In addition, whenever a bloodrager would gain a bloodline bonus spell, he may instead select a spell of equal or lower spell level from the bonus spells of the sorcerer bloodline of the same name.
This ability replaces fast movement, blood sanctuary, and the bloodline bonus feats at 9th and 15th levels.
Krugdork called out the Primalist and Untouchable archetypes for bloodrager. Primalist archetype makes bloodrager class more like barbarian class by removing some bloodline powers and adding some rage powers. Untouchable archetype removes spellcasting from bloodragers to add spell resistance, which is inconveniently mandatory like saves of the barbarians's Superstition rage power.
While it is one of the few sources of GOOD spell resistance (a lot of sources end up weak; but this one is 8+lvl+ another scaling 4, for a total of 32).... but I would hardly call it mandatory.
Even if the casting of blood ragers can be a bit 'meh' at times when cast normally (4 lvls and all; great utility like fly, but it is definitely not your main thing)..... it is a class that can auto cast a buff at level 11 for no action (since it comes with the rage).
That means you can throw on things like long arm automatically. Realizing that made me realize how fantastic arcane is at killing casters (walk up, get reach to make 5' steps useless, adn make it so the enemy HAS to eat an AoO whether they run or cast). It also made aberrant even more insanely good at reach.
It honestly makes me feel sorry for war priests (who end up with swift action anemia). Sure, bloodrager has less spells and has a limit on the level of spell it can cast with greater bloodrage... but that is still really strong.
Krugdork called out the Primalist and Untouchable archetypes for bloodrager. Primalist archetype makes bloodrager class more like barbarian class by removing some bloodline powers and adding some rage powers. Untouchable archetype removes spellcasting from bloodragers to add spell resistance, which is inconveniently mandatory like saves of the barbarians's Superstition rage power.While it is one of the few sources of GOOD spell resistance (a lot of sources end up weak; but this one is 8+lvl+ another scaling 4, for a total of 32).... but I would hardly call it mandatory.
Even if the casting of blood ragers can be a bit 'meh' at times when cast normally (4 lvls and all; great utility like fly, but it is definitely not your main thing)..... it is a class that can auto cast a buff at level 11 for no action (since it comes with the rage).
That means you can throw on things like long arm automatically. Realizing that made me realize how fantastic arcane is at killing casters (walk up, get reach to make 5' steps useless, adn make it so the enemy HAS to eat an AoO whether they run or cast). It also made aberrant even more insanely good at reach.
It honestly makes me feel sorry for war priests (who end up with swift action anemia). Sure, bloodrager has less spells and has a limit on the level of spell it can cast with greater bloodrage... but that is still really strong.
I meant "mandatory" in the semse that, "As long as the untouchable is bloodraging, the spell resistance is persistent, and can only be lowered by ending the bloodrage." That leads the the same problem as Superstition: difficult to heal a bloodrager or barbarian via divine magic before losing the extra hit points from raging.
My bloodrager Val likes the utility spells: Expedition Excavation, Mount, and Burrow. She skipped Fly because her bloodline lets her fly. She wishes the bloodrager spell list had more utility spells, such as Crafter's Fortune or Make Whole or anything at 4th level, but she is nerdy for a bloodrager.
The bloodrager spells with attack rolls are fun. She is a full BAB, so touch attacks are easy for her. The nearly-guaranteed hit makes up for her lower level spells. ShroudedInLight recommended boosting bloodrager to a 6-spell-level caster, but bloodrager is a good design for an arcane 4-spell-level caster.
I have not made good use of the auto-cast from Greater Bloodrage. Val usually uses it for Shield, since defense is her weak point. Any suggestions besides Shield or Long Arm? She seldom faces wizards casting spells, because the Iron Gods adventure path arms its wizards with laser pistols.
Oh, sorry. I thought you meant 'mandatory' as in 'you pretty much HAVE to take this'. I thought you were talking about the aspects of superstition that are like beast totem or invulnerable archetype- the thing that theory crafters feel you HAVE to have.
The kind of situation where you find it hard to suggest totems other than beast. Which can suck when you see a nice totem line but feel 'is it worth pounce?'.
I agree that superstition tends to be a mixed bag- I tend to just grab a race like half elves to bump up will saves and leave it. Not as good as the 'pretty much nothing can get a save based spell on me' tankiness of superstition... but if I wanted that, I would grab a destined bloodline (AHAH! Another good bloodline! Not quite as many options as aberrant and arcane, but being sturdy for little cost has its own benefits; ends up feeling like barbarian though, only with good AC- very good choice for primalist really).
sidenote- are laser pistols different from other ranged weapons? I haven't kept up on the high tech rules. Wouldn't dominating reach still be good against ranged attacks? Sure, not 'you failed a concentration check' levels, but it still hurts to get smacked around.
Well, mirror image is always good. There are other various defensive buffs against ranged and fire attacks, but nothing quite as good offensively as longarm.
The list might be better if you go with urban blood rager (who gets to pick from the bard list). Those help with general utility too, and not just buffs.
sidenote- are laser pistols different from other ranged weapons? I haven't kept up on the high tech rules. Wouldn't dominating reach still be good against ranged attacks? Sure, not 'you failed a concentration check' levels, but it still hurts to get smacked around.
Well, mirror image is always good. There are other various defensive buffs against ranged and fire attacks, but nothing quite as good offensively as longarm.
The list might be better if you go with urban blood rager (who gets to pick from the bard list). Those help with general utility too, and not just buffs.
A laser pistol has a range increment of 50 feet, hits touch AC, deals 1d8 fire damage, and offers Rapid Shot without the feat. It also consumes expensive battery charges quickly. I have not seen how well a wizard with a laser pistol fares in combat, because the party was careful to avoid combat with them.
Yes, Mirror Image would be good for the auto-cast. Val had instead taken the 4th-level version, Shocking Image, which is not compatible with Greater Bloodrage, but she will learn another 2nd-level spell at 15th level.
The story of Val Baine and her archetypes is why I am interested in a sorcery-heavy bloodrager. The quest in the first module of Iron Gods is finding the lost wizard Khonnir Baine. The module threws in Khonnir's 13-year-old daughter Val Baine as a sympathetic character to encourage the party. When two PCs took the Local Ties campaign trait, we decided that the dwarven gunslinger had worked for Khonnir for 12 years, which bumped Val's age to 17. I made her an apprentice wizard able to cast only cantrips. Then the party invited her along on the quest, since she deserved a chance to search for her father. I had promised the three players an NPC to fill out their party. Val was of Kellid heritage, so the players suggested I stat her out as a Savage Technologist barbarian. But she had already cast cantrips in the first game session. As a compromise, I converted her to bloodrager, and when I adapted Savage Technologist to Savage Spellslinger for bloodrager, I added cantrips. The cantrips developed an interesting synergy with the gunslinging.
I did steal the Adopted Magic ability from Urban Bloodrager for the 7th rewrite of my homebrew archetype, but changed it to borrow spells from the sorcerer/wizard list rather than the bard list. Val knows Disguise Self and Make Whole because of it.
Now I have a workable and balanced archetype for bloodrager than does lean more toward sorcery. But I built it for a technological setting, so it has no general appeal.