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Is a Dire bat a rodent?


Rules Questions

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Real, large, and epicly adorable.

Scarab Sages

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Bats are Chiroptera and Rodents are Rodentia and ne'er the twain shall meet.

You say chiroptera, and I say rodentia, let's call the whole thing off!


Ironically, placing cephalopods under Animal is less irritating than a clean divide between Chordata and the other phyla. This may be because I'm still bitter over a certain test in grade 6 where we were to draw out the tree and I had id marked wrong for dividing invertebrates at the Phylum level and not the Class level. I even pointed out that this was how reality was, and they refused to give me the mark.

And for some unknown reason, my browser doesn't contain "cephalopods" and wants to correct to "hydrocephalus," which I had to look up to make sure it was a real word.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Daeslan wrote:
For the purposes of Ratfolk "Rodent Empathy", does a dire bat qualify? A standard bat counts.

Daeslan,

Try this:
Step 1) Use a wish or miracle and change "Rodent Empathy" to "Pest Empathy".
Step 2) Ride on brother! Giant raccoons (go for the matched bandit look), dire bats (Batman!), giant cockroaches, giant snakes, giant carp (underwater adventures) etc...

If your lucky, you could find a liberal GM that views numerous creatures as "pests", depending on the campaign setting, and will let you communicate with anything from demons (pests in Mendev only) to pirates (pests in the Shackles)!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not 100% up on Golarion creation myths, but it would be entirely possible in that sort of universe for Bats to be Rodents (and all the other weirdness mentioned above.)

I don't know how much of a role evolution played in the development of life on Golarion. Certainly we can be sure that it has been messed with to some extent, but it is also plausible that it may not exist at all, that everything was created. If that were the case, then creatures wouldn't be 'related' by common descent and genetic similarity, but rather by common morphological similarities. In other words, if it looks like a flying mouse, it is a flying mouse.

Using scientific classification system for a universe without magic in a universe where the primary forces seem to be supernatural, rather than natural seems to be to an error.

Scarab Sages

John Compton wrote:

Wait what? Ultimate Equipment, no. No, Ultimate Equipment. Not okay. Bats are not rodents--not by a long shot. I would not apply a ratfolk's rodent empathy to bats, just as I would not apply it to whales (and other mammals that are not part of the same taxonomic order).

I'm happy to champion the noble cause of categorizing bats properly as the order chiroptera and not rodentia. This would, of course, make for a very silly FAQ, so I'll speak to the proper authorities directly.

To be fair, Fungus is listed as a Plant, but it is not a Plant in the real world as Fungi are a different Kingdom than Plants.


Curaigh wrote:
Azullius Koujou wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Doesn't Catwoman have some line about bats being mice with wings...?
more than likely she does, and several langauges have their word for bat including mouse.

Common joke in my HS German class

in your most Michael Keaton gravelly voice: "Ich bin das Fledermausmensch!"

(I never thought to confirm that the comic might be called this in German, though I have vague recollection of Herr Rowley saying the Germans would just say 'I'm Batman'

Shouldn't it be "Der Fledermausmensch?"


Tallow wrote:
John Compton wrote:

Wait what? Ultimate Equipment, no. No, Ultimate Equipment. Not okay. Bats are not rodents--not by a long shot. I would not apply a ratfolk's rodent empathy to bats, just as I would not apply it to whales (and other mammals that are not part of the same taxonomic order).

I'm happy to champion the noble cause of categorizing bats properly as the order chiroptera and not rodentia. This would, of course, make for a very silly FAQ, so I'll speak to the proper authorities directly.

To be fair, Fungus is listed as a Plant, but it is not a Plant in the real world as Fungi are a different Kingdom than Plants.

Last time I checked on a tree of life (like for instance the one here), Fungi are much closer to Metazoa/Animals than to Plants.


Did someone on the Development Team actually believe bats are mice with wings?


^The German name for Microchiroptera does suggest it.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
HealboyHeal wrote:
Daeslan wrote:
For the purposes of Ratfolk "Rodent Empathy", does a dire bat qualify? A standard bat counts.

Daeslan,

Try this:
Step 1) Use a wish or miracle and change "Rodent Empathy" to "Pest Empathy".
Step 2) Ride on brother! Giant raccoons (go for the matched bandit look), dire bats (Batman!), giant cockroaches, giant snakes, giant carp (underwater adventures) etc...

If your lucky, you could find a liberal GM that views numerous creatures as "pests", depending on the campaign setting, and will let you communicate with anything from demons (pests in Mendev only) to pirates (pests in the Shackles)!

Now hold on! Bats are NOT pests! A bat can eat thousands of creatures like mosquitos controlling the threat for us and making our lives pest free. They are no more pests than spiders are!

Maybe an invasive species. That would actually be a cool Druid archetype. Healing the ecosystem and balance...

This is all in good fun. I'm just defending the honor of defenseless creatures.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
MageHunter wrote:
HealboyHeal wrote:
Daeslan wrote:
For the purposes of Ratfolk "Rodent Empathy", does a dire bat qualify? A standard bat counts.

Daeslan,

Try this:
Step 1) Use a wish or miracle and change "Rodent Empathy" to "Pest Empathy".
Step 2) Ride on brother! Giant raccoons (go for the matched bandit look), dire bats (Batman!), giant cockroaches, giant snakes, giant carp (underwater adventures) etc...

If your lucky, you could find a liberal GM that views numerous creatures as "pests", depending on the campaign setting, and will let you communicate with anything from demons (pests in Mendev only) to pirates (pests in the Shackles)!

Now hold on! Bats are NOT pests! A bat can eat thousands of creatures like mosquitos controlling the threat for us and making our lives pest free. They are no more pests than spiders are!

Maybe an invasive species. That would actually be a cool Druid archetype. Healing the ecosystem and balance...

This is all in good fun. I'm just defending the honor of defenseless creatures.

Thank you! We bats are not pests. I hope that now people will stop being so angry when I show up.


There is another problem: Where is the megachiroptera representation in Pathfinder?


^Good point -- the giant bats seem to be mega-sized Microchiroptera.

Shadow Lodge

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I spent a summer catching bats FOR SCIENCE. I have large paws, and as i was worried about squishing the poor things, would often just cup my hands and let the hang out while we figured out what species they were. (if it was too big to do that with? Hoary bat) They rarely tried to get out of what they must have thought was a self warming cave. When I let them go they'd often sit on my hand for a bit chilling out and I'd have to shake them to let them know i needed the hand back.


Oh the crazy derailed commentary. Haha....
I'm going to say this: Bats, while certainly NOT rodents in real life, count as rodents in Pathfinder since at least 2 books reference them as such. Unless someone can link a specific place in the rules that refutes this, I'm going to give my ratfolk the rodent bonus with his dire bat animal companion.


Then what about rabbits? Are they now rodents too?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Rabbits are rodents in real life, and in Pathfinder.


Nefreet wrote:
Rabbits are rodents in real life, and in Pathfinder.

Rabbits are lagomorphs, not rodents.


bats are clearly 100% flying rats IRL


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vhok wrote:
bats are clearly 100% flying rats IRL

No, that's pigeons.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Threeshades wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Rabbits are rodents in real life, and in Pathfinder.
Rabbits are lagomorphs, not rodents.

Learn something new every day.

Wikipedia wrote:

Evolution

Because the rabbit's epiglottis is engaged over the soft palate except when swallowing, the rabbit is an obligate nasal breather. Rabbits have two sets of incisor teeth, one behind the other. This way they can be distinguished from rodents, with which they are often confused.[6] Carl Linnaeus originally grouped rabbits and rodents under the class Glires; later, they were separated as the scientific consensus is that many of their similarities were a result of convergent evolution. However, recent DNA analysis and the discovery of a common ancestor has supported the view that they share a common lineage, and thus rabbits and rodents are now often referred to together as members of the superorder Glires.[7]

I'm old enough that rabbits were still classified as rodents when I was in school.

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:
I'm old enough that rabbits were still classified as rodents when I was in school.

Yeah, I recall being taught that rabbits were a rodent.

Regarding pathfinder's distinction of vermin and animals, I thought it had to do with vermin are not cute....More seriously, I've never found the pathfinder distinction between vermin and animals to be very well distinguished. The main distinction seems to be one of morality. Killing vermin is usually part of the scenario that presents vermin, while animals are only sometimes an enemy. A pregenerated scenario rarely (if ever) accounts for peaceful encounters with vermin.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I'm old enough that rabbits were still classified as rodents when I was in school.

Yeah, I recall being taught that rabbits were a rodent.

Regarding pathfinder's distinction of vermin and animals, I thought it had to do with vermin are not cute....More seriously, I've never found the pathfinder distinction between vermin and animals to be very well distinguished. The main distinction seems to be one of morality. Killing vermin is usually part of the scenario that presents vermin, while animals are only sometimes an enemy. A pregenerated scenario rarely (if ever) accounts for peaceful encounters with vermin.

As somebody with a weird sense of what is cute, I'm pretty sure that's not it since counterexamples abound.

Scarab Sages

The Sideromancer wrote:


As somebody with a weird sense of what is cute, I'm pretty sure that's not it since counterexamples abound.

I was kidding about the cute. I, personally, think slugs are cute (though that would probably change if giant slugs were real).


The main difference between animal and vermin is supposed to be that the vermin are 'mindless' (or at least, have very simplistic minds incapable of doing much beyond their basic instincts). Rats are fairly intelligent and capable of learning tricks, so don't count as vermin in this sense.

Vermin also tend to also play a different role in dungeon ecosystems; undead and demons would probably kill any animals who got too close, but they and vermin usually ignore one another.


So, a haunting or demonic presence helps to keep down the rat populations? Not a bad way to protect your homestead if your going away on a long trip. Put demon summoning on the list right after winterizing your pipes.


I think vermin are invertebrates that are mindless. I'm not sure why the game needed this distinction in the first place. So im happy 5e just rolled both into beasts.

Liberty's Edge

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Rodents? Preposterous. We all know bats are bugs.


RealAlchemy wrote:
Curaigh wrote:
Azullius Koujou wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Doesn't Catwoman have some line about bats being mice with wings...?
more than likely she does, and several langauges have their word for bat including mouse.

Common joke in my HS German class

in your most Michael Keaton gravelly voice: "Ich bin das Fledermausmensch!"

(I never thought to confirm that the comic might be called this in German, though I have vague recollection of Herr Rowley saying the Germans would just say 'I'm Batman'

Shouldn't it be "Der Fledermausmensch?"

How it would be in Italian: Io sono Uomo Pipistrello!(not a 100% sure on the spelling...incidentally Italians call Batman Batman, but Spiderman IS Uomo Ragno.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
poster 1 wrote:

Common joke in my HS German class

in your most Michael Keaton gravelly voice: "Ich bin das Fledermausmensch!"
poster 2 wrote:
Shouldn't it be "Der Fledermausmensch?"

Hmm. The root is feminine (die fledermaus), the added suffix would be -mann, not -mensch, and the gender would change to male, not neuter:

"Ich bin der Fledermausmann!"


Daeslan wrote:

Oh the crazy derailed commentary. Haha....

I'm going to say this: Bats, while certainly NOT rodents in real life, count as rodents in Pathfinder since at least 2 books reference them as such. Unless someone can link a specific place in the rules that refutes this, I'm going to give my ratfolk the rodent bonus with his dire bat animal companion.

Just need to find some class to dip into that you can grow wings with, then your Rat folk can step in from the dark night and cry "I'm Bat Man!"


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Coidzor wrote:

Speaking of weirdness, IIRC, sponges would technically be a kind of plant.

kanonen wrote:
they would possibly fall under vermin
No, vermin are invertebrates. Bats and Dire Bats are mammals and have spines and the like.
Well rats are considered vermin in PF and they are also mammals.
This is news to me, could you point me to a citaion? I'm coming up empty trying to track it down.
Huh weird after doing a search on the pfsrd aparenlty its only fiendish and celestial rats (as well as every other celestial and fiendish small animal wtf?) also Sea Anemone and all sorts of crabs.

This is a bit late of a response, but they aren't vermin either, it's just that the PSRD filter doesn't filter them out ever. So even if you filter out all creature types those celestial and fiendish rats will still show up along with a few other things.


Wikipedia wrote:
....Well-known rodents include mice, rats, squirrels, prairie dogs, porcupines, beavers, guinea pigs, hamsters, gerbils and capybaras. Other animals such as rabbits, hares, and pikas, whose incisors also grow continually, were once included with them, but are now considered to be in a separate order, the Lagomorpha. Nonetheless, Rodentia and Lagomorpha are sister groups, sharing a most recent common ancestor and forming the clade of Glires....

Bats do not have continuously-growing incisors. (They're also the only mammals capable of true flight.)


They use more medieval folk taxonomy than scientific taxonomy.

A good rule of thumb is that you are starting to question how something in D&D fantasy gaming does not make sense scientifically is that you just aren't getting D&D fantasy gaming.

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