I like the rings, I'm not great with balancing price unfortunately. But the effects are fun, flavorful, and not over powered
I like the rings... the effects are fun, flavorful, and not over powered
Thanks! I try.
...
No one else on the rings? Okay then, moving on.
(but seriously, if anyone else has comments/critiques on the rings, let me know)
So, here's another big one.
Humanity.
In game, Humanity keeps the Chosen Undead (and most of the other NPCs) looking fresh and human and not Hollow.
It can also be used to improve bonfires, heal HP, and... that's about it.
Oh, and it is a huge fricken plot element that the entire series is named after.
So... yeah. What to do with that?
Since this is the same group that helped me playtest (prior to the official one I mean) the Book of Passion, I'm pretty sure the main use of humanity in game will be keeping the PCs and NPCs fresh and human-looking. No one wants to have sexy times with a Hollow.
The other two uses... require talking about healing and bonfires.
So....
Estus Flasks
Here's a question: How much should an Estus Flask heal?
As a Cure potion?
Should it automatically scale (increasing every few levels or so), or should I follow the video game and require Fire Keeper Souls to upgrade the Flask from Cure Light to Cure Mod to Cure Serious to Cure Crit?
Should the party share one Estus Flask that they pass around (as a free action to avoid messing with the action economy - drinking is still a standard action) or should they each have their own?
Assume the party will have a divine spellcaster of some sort casting healing miracles. I know my players - we will have at least one character able to heal, possibly more than one.
I'm leaning towards a single Estus flask shared by the party just because I don't think it's practical to hand out enough Firekeeper Souls to upgrade more than one flask to Cure Crit - if that's the route I'm going. If they auto-upgrade without firekeeper souls (to keep stuff simpler) then there's no reason not to give them to all the PCs.
And yeah, assume an Estus Flask has 5 uses per bonfire rest by default. In theory, Humanity can be used to upgrade a bonfire higher, but that would take us back to the Humanity discussion.
Thoughts?
Have you seen dark souls 3? The way that it handles some things may make your life easier.
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Yeah in 3 you upgrade the Bonfire (which are all linked so you don't have to upgrade them individually) with Ash and you upgrade the Estus Flask itself with Estus Shards to get more uses out of it.
So using Firekeeper Soul/Ash to increase healing, Cure Light > Cure Moderate
and Shards to increase uses, starting at 1 for each flask, that way you don't have to worry about all of your players having one.
I have not done anything with DS3 yet (I've been holding it back as a special treat to get me "in the mood" this Fall/Winter when I'm finally ready to run this game).
And yeah, that sounds WAY easier - both because there's no tracking individual bonfires and because there's no issue of "do I restore this murdered firekeeper or improve my Estus Flask more?".
Ash eh? Where do you get Ash from? I mean, I assume it isn't just any old ash.
I think they're referring to Undead Bone Shards, which increase the amount restored (versus Estus Shards, which increase the number of uses).
Yeah shards are what he ment. I'd look up the ds3 changes as far as gameplay goes because some things are much easier to implement
Okay, so let me summarize this.
Each PC in the party starts with one Estus Flask each. To start with, each flask has only one "dose" in it, and that dose heals as per Cure Light Wounds plus the PC's current level (ie HD = CL of the cure spell).
Finding an Estus Shard allows the players to increase the size of their flasks, adding extra doses to a flask.
Since I will need to have multiple flasks get upgrades (since each PC has one), so for fairness, I should likely drop a number of shards equal to the number of players fairly close together so that no PC is significantly behind on Estus uses.
In addition, the PCs can find Undead Bone Shards - ie, rare bits of undead that don't vanish when the undead respawns due to their 'curse'.
An Undead Bone Shard can be used on any bonfire to increase the power of all bonfires, causing the Estus in the flask to be more powerful.
Thus, burning one Undead Bone Shard would increase one dose of Estus to the potency of Cure Moderate Wounds. A second Undead Bone Shard would increase the power to Cure Serious Wounds.
In fact, I could technically allow this to continue to scale beyond any spells in the book, with the fifth Undead Bone Shard improving healing to 6d8 plus level, for example. On the other hand, since other things are capping at aprox half their usual amount, maybe maxing out at 5d8 plus level (effectively Breath of Life without the raise dead aspect) would be best? Hm.
Okay, so does all that sound right from a lore/mechanics perspective?
Yes, I was planning on letting them use one another's Estus flasks at need.
And yes, I was planning on letting the party divy up the shards as they prefer, allowing them to put extra on certain characters and fewer on others.
My concern was that one option per party member might be a bit low for first level. I'm usually pretty generous with healing potions in loot at low levels - if only to prevent "five minute day" syndrome. My players are pretty good about that already (I've trained them well to preserve their resources and rely on unlimited abilities when possible) but one way I normally deal with that at low levels is lots of healing potions in the loot (and normal healing potions don't exist in Dark Souls).
Mm. Maybe I should start the Estus Flask with two doses each to start with. That would front-load the party, so I wouldn't have to worry about handing out shards for a while. That would help keep them feeling rare and special.
That sounds good to me, also if your party does need a pick me up then you could have them encounter some estus soup from DS3, I like the idea of front loading the party though
Okay then, moving on.
Or rather, moving back. Humanity.
We've got undead bone shards to improve bonfires.
We have estus flasks - and even Siegmeyer and his Estus Soup, apparently - for healing.
And "Human" vs "Hollow" - in terms of PCs anyway - is basically the same thing mechanically (well, aside from summons).
So... should pieces of Humanity actually do anything mechanically, or should I just keep them as plot items with no actual mechanical use or "value" in the system?
I suggest keeping humanity perhaps as an "ability score" that may do something and it goes down by x every time you did and is increased by y every time you use humanity...I'm not sure what it would do unfortunately
Perhaps you lose one humanity whenever you die and you can full heal by dropping your humanity by one (maybe your starting humanity is equal to your CHA modifier) and if it hits zero then you are considered hollow? I don't know what that would mean though
Hmm. I'm actually less interested in "liquid Humanity" (ie the number at the top left of the screen) which increases Chaos magic and drop rates (since drops won't be random, so drop rates won't exist) and more interested in "solid humanity" that you find on corpses and heals you when absorbed (is it full heals? I remember it being less than that - more like Estus-level healing).
I like the plot/lore elements of being able to kill enemies and pick up actual physical pieces of the Dark Soul which one then uses to make oneself look human and non-rotten. And everything that implies.
Also, just in case people didn't notice, I posted new monsters in the Dark Souls monster thread.
Perhaps it'll cure hollowing and heal, and yeah it's a full heal just like embers in ds3
Hm. Okay, well, THAT is going to be valuable for the healing alone.
A "potion of heal" - if such a thing was legal - would cost 3,300 gp, so I'll need to calculate that use of it in when considering loot values.
Although, I suppose that's still way cheaper than raise dead + restoration, so I guess that will help keep death from becoming meaningless (since it will cost a rare item to look socially acceptable again).
Okay, we've dealt with spending souls, humanity, estus, and slots.
That leaves one major thing...
Spells.
Option 1) I leave things Pathfinder standard. Sorceries = Arcane, Miracles = Divine, and Pyromancy = ... just fire spells?
Option 2) I create new spell lists, resorting the existing Pathfinder spells into three groupings - Sorceries, Divine, and Pyromancy. Different classes access one or more of those spell lists. For example, Clerics would have access to Divine spells only.
Option 3) I create new spells based on those in Dark Souls. As with the rings, if something similar already exists, it would be renamed and ported over. Otherwise, I'd create all spells from scratch. The spells from the game are the only spells that would exist.
Hm. None of those are really appealing. Option 1 is easy and balanced, but basically drops Pyromancy off the face of the Lordran. Options 2 and 3 are both massive pains in the butt, but are more setting-correct.
Any ideas for a 4th Option that sucks less than my current ideas?
Dang spells are not my forte sorry...I'm really not sure, lemme think on it and I'll get back to you
I actually slapped together a "Darksigned Undead" template a few months ago, in anticipcation of making a Dark Souls Mod for Pathfinder, so this might be interesting or useful:
Thou who art undead, art chosen.
Creating a Darksigned Undead
“Darksigned Undead” is an acquired template that can be added to any living humanoid creature. The creature retains all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.Senses: A Darksigned Undead gains darkvision 10 ft.
Defensive Abilities: Darksigned Undead are cursed with immortality. When reduced to 0 HP, a Darksigned Undead fades to nothing, and instantly reforms at its most recent Resonance Point (usually a Bonfire). This is not a teleportation ability, although it functions similarly.
Hunger for life: Darksigned Undead do not gain XP normally, instead they gain Souls equal to the XP they would have gained. Darksigned Undead may use Souls to level up as per experience points. Souls may also be voluntarily transfered to another Darkisigned Undead, or placed in an appropriate receptacle, such as an urn, jar, or sarcophagus.
Weaknesses:
Hollowing: If a Darksigned Undead is reduced to 0hp while possessing no souls, he gains a negative level, and takes 1d4 points of intelligence, wisdom and charisma drain. If a Darksigned Undead reaches 0 in any of these abilities, he loses the Darksigned Undead Template, and gains the Hollowed template.
I actually slapped together a "Darksigned Undead" template a few months ago, in anticipcation of making a Dark Souls Mod for Pathfinder, so this might be interesting or useful:
** spoiler omitted **
On this model, each Humanity/Human Effigy/Ember function as Single-use Greater Restoration.
Huh. Fairly neat, but I prefer to go with Miyazaki's version of hollowing - ie, it only happens when the PLAYER gives up.
Which, in theory, shouldn't happen unless I f-up royally.
Also, I happen to have already addressed this independently.
For my game, the PCs will be type humanoid (undead).
That is humanoid type, undead subtype.
Undead subtype humanoids gain the dark sign (respawn at bonfires), and certain bonuses to Ability scores and natural armor, but do not lose their con, nor do they gain any normal racial stuff. Thus the PCs won't get human bonus feats or bonus skills - they'll get the benefits listed for the "undead" race.
Basically, the idea is that the undead subtype is a step between human (or possibly elf for someone from Oolacile) and proper undead type (my go-to for hollows).
Been awhile since I played Dark Souls, but weren't most of the spells fairly simple.
I think if I had to mess with it I would slap together talents from Spheres of Power to make spells. Increase cast time for some of the more powerful spells and assign a number of uses per rest at a bonfire.
Oh right, that was a big change in ds3, they added a mana bar instead of the spell counter
Hm. See, I actually liked how DS1 basically uses vancian casting.
Ie, you have spells lots, you prepare spells into those slots, you cast them from those slots, and when you run out, you need to rest.
And to GM Rednal - yeah, that's why I'm reluctant to mess with stuff too heavily.
So I guess the real question is if it's worth having Sorcery and Pyromancy as separate things, or if they should just be wrapped back into "Arcane" magic.
Oh, I did see an option 4 elsewhere. Or maybe an Option 1B. Anyway, that option kept the spell lists the same (ie, Sorcery and Pyromancy had the exact same spell lists) but made Sorcery prepared (ie Wizards) and Pyromancy spontaneous (ie Sorcerers). (And Miracles = all Divine magic). So that's an option too.
Funny thing Dox, Demon Souls used a mana bar as well. I haven't played DS3 yet, but it sounds like it will be like coming back home.
Honestly, I think Pyromancy would be best represented by the Kineticist class.
Huh. THAT's a really cool idea. I like it!
Okay, so Arcane magic is Sorcery, Divine magic is Miracles, and Pyromancy is handled by Kineticists. That means a single PC won't be able to learn multiple types of magic (without multiclassing) but that's fine for a party-based game (rather than a solo-game like the video game itself).
There's also Spheres of Power if you want to have more linear, less-omnipotent magic.
You really like Spheres of Power, huh? I used that as the core to my Mass Effect homebrew, and it worked out pretty well for that. However, when I tried to use SoP straight up for a fantasy game, it wasn't as popular. I'm not sure my players would go for using it again in a fantasy setting (like Dark Souls).
Funny thing Dox, Demon Souls used a mana bar as well. I haven't played DS3 yet, but it sounds like it will be like coming back home.
I loved ds3 just be warned...don't expect it to be as good as ds1
I went to build the Bloated Zombies for the other thread, and I noticed that Bloated Zombies cast pyromancy. So I tried making them Kineticists. And, yeah, it looks pretty good.
So that's dealt with.
Hm. Am I forgetting anything? We've got bonfires, Estus, the three types of magic, Humanity...
That's about it, until you hit specific puzzles and stuff that is...sounds good to me
Oh yeah, almost forgot - that "Highly Visible Traps" thread also included some stuff for Sen's Fortress (and Zelda). But yeah, that's done too (since I have those notes from the aforementioned Zelda game).
All right, if that's it, then I guess we're done here. The Bestiary thread will continue since I have plenty more monsters to stat up.
Thanks for the feedback!
Crap, too late to edit.
Anyway, I thought of something else! This is less a mechanical issue (at least ATM) and more of a question about something that never quite made sense to me.
In Dark Souls 1, several undead NPCs can (depending on PC actions) be perma-killed, either by the PC or by other NPCs.
My question is... how? They also have the Dark Sign - why don't they respawn at a bonfire too?
I'm not talking about the NPCs who go hollow. I'm specifically talking about ones who get straight-out killed. Like, for example Rhea.
So yeah - is any explanation given about undead-cursed individuals being straight-out killed in universe?
I'm pretty sure that the idea is that they do respawn but you never cross paths again
Mmm. Fair enough. And that does handily explain the various "hollow corpses" you find all over the place (particularly in New Londo).
But you also have Siegmeyer, who joins you in battle against the Chaos Eaters and - if reduced to 50% HP or less - drops dead at the end of the battle and appears to perma-die (since that full-on ends his questline). I suppose he could have respawned elsewhere, but then shouldn't Sieglinde be able to find him all the same then? I mean, Siegmeyer is like the opposite of Hollow.
As for Rhea, I didn't mean if YOU kill her, I meant if Petrus kills her. You find her drops and she never respawns.
If you buy all her stuff, she gets kidnapped by Channelers and goes hollow, but if Petrus kills her, she appears to be just straight-up dead.
For that matter, Patches seems to think that kicking you off a cliff will perma-kill you so he can loot you. Even if you die, you respawn at the bonfire that is basically next to him. Seems like a bad plan.
Anyway, I was just wondering. TV Tropes refers to it as "Gameplay and Story Segregation" (and specifically call out NPCs not respawning). However, Dark Souls is usually better about that stuff than other games, so I was just wondering if there were any fan-theories or obscure lore that I'd missed.
My personal theory is that they respawn but because you killed them you don't see them but they see (and possibly get killed by) you, basically...alternate time lines...but that's just a theory, a LAME THEORY, thanks for reading
My personal theory is that they respawn but because you killed them you don't see them but they see (and possibly get killed by) you, basically...
**confused frown**
But I'm specifically talking about the NPCs that are killed by things other than the player. Avoiding the player after being murdered makes sense, but Sieg is the PC's buddy - until he dies, and then he's just gone. If he was able to come back and help more, he would.
Also! ...Things can only die permanently in certain proximity to the bonfires. This is very noticeable in Dark Souls 3.
That is a VERY interesting statement. There is a bonfire fairly close to where Rhea is killed. And maybe to where Sieg is killed? And certainly to where Patches is killing people.
Are you suggesting that the bonfire sucks up their dropped humanity, thus perma-killing them?
Damn!
Also - so this is addressed in Dark Souls 3. Hm. Maybe my idea to delay on Dark Souls 3 until fall is a bad idea - it sounds like a lot of very important world building Lore is handled there.
Perhaps I should just go for it and start in with DS 3 now (or, well, in a few weeks anyway) rather than waiting.
That said, considering where my game is going to be set in the timeline (several hundred years before the events of Dark Souls 1), I may need to treat perma-death as far more common simply due to temporal proximity to Gwyn kindling the flame.
So yeah, thanks for letting me know that. It certainly adds some additional dimensions to things.
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Here's something else I've been working on.
Fire Keeper (Oracle archetype)
A Fire Keeper maims herself so that she may serve the flame, keeping her bonfire lit. She is a draw for humanity, and it surges beneath her, always threatening to consume her, yet never doing so, so long as she fulfills her duty to the flame.
Required Mystery: Flame
Recommended Curse: aboleth, blackened, clouded vision, site-bound, or mute (see below).
Bonus Spells: restoration (8th), cleanse (10th), create demiplane (16th), soul bind (18th)
Revelations: A Fire Keeper can select any of the following mysteries, although she is limited by minimum level restrictions as normal. Some Fire Keepers take all three, while others take none of them - each Fire Keeper follows her own path in the end.
Channel (Su): as per the Life mystery revelation of the same name
Cinder Step (Su): A Fire Keeper can transport herself and anyone touching her between bonfires. This functions as teleport, except that the only viable locations to teleport to are other lit bonfires that the Fire Keeper or her present companions have previously visited. For the purposes of the site-bound curse, a Fire Keeper with this mystery counts all lit bonfires as her site, and so can teleport freely between them (although she is still restricted as to the distance she can stray from an individual bonfire).
You must be at least 7th level before selecting this revelation.
Shell of Succor (Su): as per the Succor mystery revelation of the same name
Spray of Shooting Stars (Su): as per the Heaven's mystery revelation of the same name
Storm of Souls (Su): as per the Ancestor mystery revelation of the same name
Final Revelation: Upon reaching 20th level, the writhing humanity within you consumes your organs, transforming you into a true vessel for humanity. You gain damage reduction 5/- and immunity to critical hits, fire, and sneak attacks. Once per day, you may cast meteor swarm as a spell-like ability that does not require material components.
Mute (oracle curse)
You are mute and cannot speak, although you can hear normally. You are unable to speak any language and have great difficulty communicating with others, although you can still understand as many languages as you'd normally be able to speak. Many social interactions are entirely impossible for you, and on those that aren't, you suffer a -4 penalty. Fortunately, you have learned to make-do while spellcasting - you ignore all verbal components for any oracle spells you cast (similar to the silent spell metamagic feat, but without increased casting time or caster level).
At 5th level, you gain the ability to detect the emotions of those around you. This functions as the detect thoughts spell, except that instead of learning surface thoughts on the third round, you instead get a single word description of the target's emotional state, such as proud, afraid, or determined. You can activate or repress this ability as a free action.
At 10th level, you gain the ability to detect thoughts. This functions as the 5th level ability, but you can instead choose to learn surface thoughts of a target on the 3rd round, as per normal for the spell.
At 15th level, you gain telepathy 100 ft. as per the telepathy spell. Like the above abilities, it can be activated or repressed as a free action.
I don't think it's necessary to say that the Meteor Swarm SLA doesn't require material components - SLA's don't need them by default, so that's just repeating the rule.
I actually copied that out of another revelation, swapping a different spell for meteor swarm. However, it is entirely possible that that spell had costly components whereas meteor swarm does not, so that may have been the reason for that phrase.
But yeah, I'm not attached to that bit or anything. If I could still edit that post, I'd just delete that bit.