Mana / magic resource pool for all spellcasters

[Bronsonfu]

I'm sure this idea has been tossed around already though I would like to make this post regardless for my players to see and be able to access from the forums. If you have any neat suggestions, please leave a comment.

Mana Pool
To calculate the mana pool of a spellcaster, let's use an example level 20 universalist wizard with an intelligence score of 20 (+5 modifier).

Spells per day (with bonus spells from high ability score already factored in) are as follows.

0th - 4
1st - 6
2nd - 5
3rd - 5
4th - 5
5th - 5
6th - 4
7th - 4
8th - 4
9th - 4

Take the number of spells per level, multiply them by its spell level and then add the totals together.

(4x0)+(6x1)+(5x2)+(5x3)+(5x4)+(5x5)+(4x6)+(4x7)+(4x8)+(4x9)= Mana Pool

0 + 6 + 10 + 15 + 20 + 25 + 24 + 28 + 32 + 36 = Mana Pool

196 = Mana pool

Using Mana
Mana usage is simple. The cost of the spell is based on the level of the spell. Thus a 1st level spell would cost 1 mana to prepare for the day while a 9th level spell would cost 9 mana to prepare for the day. A spell modified with a metamagic feat would cost its new level total (a quickened 1st level spell would cost 5 mana rather than 1 mana). You may not exceed a mana cost of 9 for any spell (no adding quicken to a 9th level spell etc.). 0 level spells do not interact with mana and their preparation rules remain the same unless modified with a metamagic feat that would increase the spell level beyond 0 thus our example wizard still prepares four 0 level spells that can be cast indefinitely as described in the core rules.

End Result
Preparing spells within this system would result in increased freedom of choice and flexibility as it removes the idea of spell slots. Our wizard could prepare 21 9th spells with an extra 7 mana to spare elsewhere. He could also instead prepare 196 1st level spells!

Disruption of Balance (especially at higher levels)
Though this system can make spellcasting more flexible, it changes the overall balance of the game. Having a wizard able to cast 21+ 9th spells per day could quickly overshadow the usefulness of a martial class during combat or social scenarios. It's best to talk with your group ahead of time and decide together if you feel this method of spellcasting is acceptable for your game. Maybe consider giving this option to only 4th and 6th level casters while making 9th level casters use the original rules? Whatever you decide on, make sure everyone comes to an agreement so that no one feels cheated.

To anyone looking for any kind of clarification, post your comment and I'll try to respond as quickly as possible.

[Dasrak]

You might want to look into the Psionic rules, which do what you're trying to do here. They're extremely well-polished and I highly recommend them if you're looking for a "mana"-like system.

[Cyrad]

As you pointed out, it doesn't quite work. There's no numeric relationship between the spell levels. Vancian magic doesn't quite work that way where each spell level is essentially like a separate resource. Psionic rules work out better because the entire system was balanced and designed around a point pool.

I do propose another approach, however. What if your mana pool stayed the same but spell costs went down? The goal would be that your highest spell level would always have the same mana cost and result in roughly the same number of that spell level for comparable classes. You'd end up with less spells overall, but could compensate for that in other areas, such as determining how the character prepares and knows spells.

[Arrius]

Following up on Cyrad's approach, below is a link for the Blackfang mana system (which is the one of the more popular subsystems for mana).

Link 1 (Paizo)
Link 2 (Piazza, better presentation.

Bite-sized version:
You have Mana Points equal to your casting attribute score (not modifier). Reaching 0 means no spellcasting. Spontaneous casters gain 50% extra mana.
Spells cost 6 + spell level mana points. The cost goes down 1 point per 3 spellcasting levels to a minimum cost of the spell's level in mana points. Cantrips cost half a level 1 spell's mana cost.
You regain your spellcasting attribute in mana points per hour of rest, and regain all of it after an extended rest.
Being decoupled from spell slots, you can prepare 1 spell in every spell level per point of your casting attribute (maximum 5 for spontaneous casters, 7 for prepared casters).

Of course, you can then add mana-reducing spells and effects, but that is beyond the scope of the condensed version.

[Metal Eater]

Arrius wrote:

Following up on Cyrad's approach, below is a link for the Blackfang mana system (which is the one of the more popular subsystems for mana).

Link 1 (Paizo)
Link 2 (Piazza, better presentation.

Bite-sized version:
You have Mana Points equal to your casting attribute score (not modifier). Reaching 0 means no spellcasting. Spontaneous casters gain 50% extra mana.
Spells cost 6 + spell level mana points. The cost goes down 1 point per 3 spellcasting levels to a minimum cost of the spell's level in mana points. Cantrips cost half a level 1 spell's mana cost.
You regain your spellcasting attribute in mana points per hour of rest, and regain all of it after an extended rest.
Being decoupled from spell slots, you can prepare 1 spell in every spell level per point of your casting attribute (maximum 5 for spontaneous casters, 7 for prepared casters).

Of course, you can then add mana-reducing spells and effects, but that is beyond the scope of the condensed version.

Hey, I'm one of the players that will be using Bronson's mana rules in an upcoming game he's running, and thought I'd comment on the variant you use. I find your choice to be too limited, and because you decouple spell slots, you change the way spontaneous casters gain spells from their list in a very unsatisfying way.

Bronson's rules don't limit your spell choices, and use spell lots as the base for determining your mana pool, where as the system you chose seems to inherently have the same or similar limitations as the base rules in some cases.

And to Dasrak, the Psionic rules are not at all similar, and seem very much over-complicated even for their intended use.

[Tinalles]

Woo, thread necro'd from a year and a half ago!

But since it's already risen from its grave, I may as well suggest looking at Spheres of Power, which is a complete replacement magic system using spell points instead of spells-per-day. Plus a whole lot more.

[master_marshmallow]

check this out-

[Arrius]

Metal Eater wrote:

Arrius wrote:

Blackfang mana system

Hey, I'm one of the players that will be using Bronson's mana rules in an upcoming game he's running, and thought I'd comment on the variant you use. I find your choice to be too limited, and because you decouple spell slots, you change the way spontaneous casters gain spells from their list in a very unsatisfying way.

Bronson's rules don't limit your spell choices, and use spell lots as the base for determining your mana pool, where as the system you chose seems to inherently have the same or similar limitations as the base rules in some cases.

You've describe the features of the system, not mistakes in them.

+ Spell slots work on a unified mechanic (and do not need a chart for each caster)
+ Number of spells prepared are overall more than in core, allowing for more flexibility
+ Mana costs scale by spell level (so spell choices are not limited any more than core)
This opens up the potential for mana-burn-like effects, and abilities that both restore or remove mana.

The above system has features that are questionable
+ The Mana Pool is also effectively the number of spells prepared (preparing 100 level 1 spells means 100 mana is used)
+ More extreme rocket tag (9th-level spells everywhere)
+ Having a quickly-scaling (and large) mana pool (potential of nearly 200) doesn't contrast well with having an overall smaller pool (as the Blackfang system).

At any rate, Tinalles linked the Spheres of Power rules (which are very good) and will better intra-party balance between martials and casters.
Check it out.

[Metal Eater]

Arrius wrote:

Metal Eater wrote:

Arrius wrote:

Blackfang mana system

Hey, I'm one of the players that will be using Bronson's mana rules in an upcoming game he's running, and thought I'd comment on the variant you use. I find your choice to be too limited, and because you decouple spell slots, you change the way spontaneous casters gain spells from their list in a very unsatisfying way.

Bronson's rules don't limit your spell choices, and use spell lots as the base for determining your mana pool, where as the system you chose seems to inherently have the same or similar limitations as the base rules in some cases.

You've describe the features of the system, not mistakes in them.

+ Spell slots work on a unified mechanic (and do not need a chart for each caster)
+ Number of spells prepared are overall more than in core, allowing for more flexibility
+ Mana costs scale by spell level (so spell choices are not limited any more than core)
This opens up the potential for mana-burn-like effects, and abilities that both restore or remove mana.

The above system has features that are questionable
+ The Mana Pool is also effectively the number of spells prepared (preparing 100 level 1 spells means 100 mana is used)
+ More extreme rocket tag (9th-level spells everywhere)
+ Having a quickly-scaling (and large) mana pool (potential of nearly 200) doesn't contrast well with having an overall smaller pool (as the Blackfang system).

At any rate, Tinalles linked the Spheres of Power rules (which are very good) and will better intra-party balance between martials and casters.
Check it out.

And you've missed what I was saying. I was not critiquing your chosen system, I wasn't pointing out mistakes, as you can't claim something is a mistake in an entirely custom made system. I was simply saying that it was an unsatisfying replacement for the base rules. It has the same limitations as the base rules, and the things it adds don't feel worth it to me.

But to address your points directly

BlackFang:
- I already addressed this: I simply don't find this method of gaining/learning spells satisfying. I like that aspect of the base system, and its what I mean when I say Bronson's system doesn't take anything away from the game while adding something.

- Based on the descriptions it most certainly doesn't seem like it allows more spells. The scaling puts a cost on cantrips for one, which is ludicrous for a spell that is supposed to be so inconsequential as to be able to used infinitely. At low levels, it makes cantrips hardly dissimilar to level 1 spells at all, and seems quite annoying to deal with early in a campaign.

- The first part of this point is also true of Bronson's system, but the second part is a punishing effect that I simply don't like. If you're out of mana/spell slots you are already punished by not being at your maximum effectiveness. Adding fatigue is just an annoying addon and a big part of why I say the Blackfang system is unsatisfying.

Bronson's System:

- You purposely used the example of level 1 spells, which is the only instance in which mana pool = number of prepared spells. An effective spell caster isn't likely to be always preparing only level 1 spells once they have access to higher levels.

- He fully tells you that it becomes a bit of a problem at higher levels, and suggests either sticking to the original rules for spells beyond 6th level, or using a different system if you expect your campaign to get far beyond that point (the campaigns for which this was designed don't typically go on that long with relatively low level scaling)

- It doesn't contrast at all, because it's an entirely different method. That is not an argument against the system itself, its just explaining your bias.

Now some points in general I'd like to make:

- I have seen martial classes absolutely outstrip spell-casters in early levels, and for most of the early stages of a campaign magic users are barely anything more than support in my experience thus far. Reversing that balance in the late game seems perfectly fair.

- No matter how many spells over all a caster has, they still only have one turn per rotation. The odds of using a high level spell more than once per encounter are slim regardless, and Bronson's system is much more friendly for out of combat spell use without absolutely crippling you in a surprise encounter. If the DM scales their enemies and NPC's in accordance with the system, there should be no balance problems whatsoever.

- All in all, for early levels this system is pretty good, and can have the scaling for higher level spells be amped to account for how the power gap between 6th and 7th level spells.

As for Spheres of Power, it changing the entire nature of the system, and honestly, from the preview PDF, feels like it belongs in a different RPG.