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The computer rules say you can buy a complex control module for a starship or a weapon turret. The price for a module is 10% of the device being controlled. However, starships and starship weapons do not have listed prices. So how much is a complex control module for a starship?
Maybe they can only be purchased with BP?
i don't see how that would work. Computers and computer modules are priced with credits, not BP.
Page 297: A starship has a basic computer of a tier equal to half the starship’s tier (minimum 1); see the Computers skill on page 137 and Computers on page 213 for more information about how a starship computer can be hacked or upgraded. Which upgrades a crew can purchase for its starship computer is determined by the GM; some upgrades can be purchased with Build Points (see page 294).
Page 300: When a foe attempts to hack a starship’s computers and fails, a set of countermeasures can punish the would-be hacker. The crew can install one of the countermeasures listed on page 216, following the normal rules for countermeasures. Each countermeasure costs a number of Build Points equal to the starship’s computer’s tier (half the starship’s tier; see page 297).
There's enough precedent that when talking about starship computers, the costs are in BP. As such, a complex control module would cost 10% of the BP cost of the weapon or other system being controlled.
I wonder if that line is a relic from when starships were credit based and not BP based.
It's all well and good to talk about the BP costs of a starship computer controlling starship systems, and the control module pricing works in that fairly narrow application. But notice that starship systems are not given as an example, but starships themselves. Certainly, a control module could just control a specific system, but what about a module for a starship as a whole? That's easy if it's one ship controlling another, but what do you pay for a ship controlling itself? Because now the cost is self-referential, and the control module is part of the system its price is derived from.
And what about controlling a starship with something that isn't a starship component? There's nothing stopping you from getting a starship control module for your comm unit's computer, and there's a Range upgrade so you don't even have to be physically connected. What do you pay for the control module in that situation?
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Page 297: A starship has a basic computer of a tier equal to half the starship’s tier (minimum 1); see the Computers skill on page 137 and Computers on page 213 for more information about how a starship computer can be hacked or upgraded. Which upgrades a crew can purchase for its starship computer is determined by the GM; some upgrades can be purchased with Build Points (see page 294).
Page 300: When a foe attempts to hack a starship’s computers and fails, a set of countermeasures can punish the would-be hacker. The crew can install one of the countermeasures listed on page 216, following the normal rules for countermeasures. Each countermeasure costs a number of Build Points equal to the starship’s computer’s tier (half the starship’s tier; see page 297).
There's enough precedent that when talking about starship computers, the costs are in BP. As such, a complex control module would cost 10% of the BP cost of the weapon or other system being controlled.
We're not talking starship computers. We're talking normal computers. The computer rules say that any computer with the proper complex control module can control starships.
It makes absolutely no sense for the module to cost BP. It would raise too many questions. So somehow me having a laptop that can pilot ships remotely makes our starship worse? What happens if I lose my laptop; do we get the BP back or lose it forever? How would it work if I tried to use the laptop on another ship? Would that ship lose BP somehow? What if I get root access to an enemy ship and try to control it? Would the enemy ship lose BP? None of it makes any sense when you think about it.
This question needs to be answered by the design team as there's clearly rules missing from the core rulebook.
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I read the control module section as implying you've some how attached or built in the control module to the device you are trying to control. That interpretation results in a coherent explanation, at least when I think about it.
The control module allows the computer to operate a complex device, to which it must be in some way connected.
Given you're basically installing something on the ship to expand its capabilities (i.e. making it remotely pilotable), I don't see why it should not cost BP. For complete ship control, 10% of the BP spent on the ship, not including the control module itself (since the control module doesn't need to control itself) seems reasonable. If you exclude certain components from remote control (say the Rec deck or Shield control), then that doesn't get included when factoring the 10% BP cost.
If you lose your laptop, the hardware of the control module is built into the ship and presumably not lost, you just need to hook up or authorize a different computer to use it.
If you tried to use the laptop on another ship, given that other ship doesn't have a control module built into it, using your laptop on it would do nothing. If you do hook up a control module to that other ship, well then you are modifying that ship. Presumably its value in terms of BP would change. Isn't a remote control ship more valuable than one you can't remote control?
As for root access to another ship, it presumably does nothing unless there is a physical control module built in or connected to the ship.
I'm guessing you're imagining this small little box you attach to your laptop that lets you remotely control any ship, while I'm thinking about a pervasive integrated control system that has physical hooks into every part of the ship that lets you remotely control all aspects of a ship, and that can't simply be picked up and moved.
I mean, if a control module was just a little box you attach to your laptop, I'll buy a control module for weapons, and simply control every non-analog weapon my enemies have, and turn them off.
Hiruma Kai, that's not how computer modules work. Modules modify the computer, not the device it's connected to.
Hiruma Kai, that's not how computer modules work. Modules modify the computer, not the device it's connected to.
It has to modify both, or there would be no mechanism for the controlled item to receive and perform commands. The fact the cost is based on the item, not the computer, suggests the computer modification is relatively minor, just a software patch and maybe a transmission dongle, while a gun or vehicle would clearly need some extra mechanical parts to integrate with its existing controls, feeds, triggers, pedals, etc.
The computer rules say you can buy a complex control module for a starship or a weapon turret. The price for a module is 10% of the device being controlled. However, starships and starship weapons do not have listed prices. So how much is a complex control module for a starship?
Page 297: "A starship has a basic computer of a tier equal to half the starship's tier (minimum 1)..." (emphasis mine) The control module for the ship (and all of the associated systems) is basically the control module for the ship's computer. Of course, you also need to have the Range I, Range II, or Range III upgrade to control the ship/ship system without being at one of the crew stations/computer access points.
The Starship rules include the capabilities and prices for integrated control modules.
Those are for starship computers. They're not the same as normal computers, and ICMs are not the same as complex control modules for normal computers.
Are starship computers not considered computers? It was my understanding that the computer rules covered ALL computers, even those on starships.
The problem is that starship computers are paid for in BPs and do not have a price in credits. The control module has a cost dependent on the controlled items' cost in credits. So RAW you can't pay for a control module for a starship computer because you can't buy a control module by paying BPs and don't know what you should pay in credits.
I'm sure that the writers intend for you to be able to control your starship remotely (they mention doing this) but they don't specify a cost...
Amendment to my previous post:
The problem is not that the starship computer is priced in BP, it's that the starship itself if priced in BPs.
A control module is a computer upgrade. It is in the credits economy, a but it's price is dependent on the controlled item which when the item we wish to control is a starship or on a starship, is set in BPs.
Are starship computers not considered computers? It was my understanding that the computer rules covered ALL computers, even those on starships.
A starship computer is a special type of computer. This question involves the complex control module, which can be applied to any computer. The text says you can upgrade any computer with a complex control module that allows the computer to control starships. As written, this is impossible because the price is based on the controlled item and starships don't have a price in credits. Modules and other general computer upgrades are purchased with credits.
This gets more complicated if you only need to be able to control a specific module, like Jango Fett being able to start his ship or operate the hatches remotely but needing Boba to operate the turrets (unless I have that backwards), or how Samus can call her ship to certain locations remotely but can't have it do a strafing run without a later upgrade.
Would the single upgrade be based on the price of the whole ship or just the engines? And what if it's run by an AI that you just need to be able to relay voice commands to? For that matter, what's the price to add an artificial personality (another 10% upgrade) to your ship? And if you have that same AI able to communicate from either the ship or a personal communicator (à la Tony Stark's J.A.R.V.I.S. or F.R.I.D.A.Y. but on a starship scale rather than a fleet of powered armor), is that a single upgrade? 50% of the price on the second? 90%? These are things I need to know =(
A simple conversion between BPs and credits would solve this particular problem, but it would break the system as a whole, so I don't think that is the solution.
I think it would be fair to pay for the control module in BPs, but what happens if the computer with the module gets lost?
Also of note is that the whole control module section is currently fairly ambiguous.
1) What actions can the computer take? What can't it do?
2) What if I am actively controlling the controlled device as opposed to the computer?
3) What if the computer with control gets hacked, but I'm currently controlling the controlled device directly in person rather than though the computer, do I lose control, is there some sort of contest between me and the computer/hacker with the computer?
I can answer those questions. To a degree, you have to use some common sense and envision how the computer and device are set up as the computer rules leave this fairly free form.
1) A computer can autonomously perform any actions that can be feasibly performed with the device or allow someone to control the device through the computer. If the computer controls it autonomously, it has a skill bonus equal 2.5 times its tier or an attack bonus equal to its tier for any skill checks or attack rolls using the device.
2) As far as I know, you can control the device unless it would be physically impossible for both you and the computer to control it. For example, you probably wouldn't be able to wield a weapon controlled by the computer just as two creatures wouldn't be able to wield the same.
3) Hacking doesn't prevent a creature from accessing a computer unless the hacker does something specifically to do so.For whether or not a hacker can take away control, refer to point #2 above.
A computer's credit cost is based on it's tier (and possibly, it's size as well, if miniaturized).
A ship's computer has a tier equal to half that of the ship's tier.
Ergo, we do have a price for a ship's computer. The resulting control module pricing for your ship's computer would likely be as follows, in order of ship's tier:
01 - 5
02 - 5
03 - 5
04 - 25
05 - 25
06 - 125
07 - 125
08 - 500
09 - 500
10 - 1,000
11 - 1,000
12 - 2,000
13 - 2,000
14 - 4,000
15 - 4,000
16 - 8,000
17 - 8,000
18 - 16,000
19 - 16,000
20 - 32,000
A computer's credit cost is based on it's tier (and possibly, it's size as well, if miniaturized).
A ship's computer has a tier equal to half that of the ship's tier.
Ergo, we do have a price for a ship's computer. The resulting control module pricing for your ship's computer would likely be as follows, in order of ship's tier:
Again, this is NOT asking how much a starship computer is. It's asking for the price of a complex control module for a normal computer costs for controlling a starship or starship device.
Again, this is NOT asking how much a starship computer is. It's asking for the price of a complex control module for a normal computer costs for controlling a starship or starship device.A computer's credit cost is based on it's tier (and possibly, it's size as well, if miniaturized).
A ship's computer has a tier equal to half that of the ship's tier.
Ergo, we do have a price for a ship's computer. The resulting control module pricing for your ship's computer would likely be as follows, in order of ship's tier:
It was my understanding that people were claiming that they could not determine the price of a complex control module for a ship's computer, because ships are built with BP instead of credits.
I showed how we could determine the base price, in credits, of a starship's computer, and thus the price of a complex control module.
I even listed the price of said complex control modules for your convenience. The numbers above are 10% of the base price for a ship's computer, which insofar as the rules are concerned, is no different from any other computer, and thus follows all the same rules, including pricing.
In short, I established a possible baseline in which to answer the OP's question.
Now, what exactly did I miss again?
Complex control module for controlling a starship or starship components. Not the starship computer. A starship complex control module is explicitly listed as an option.
The price of a control module depends on the complexity of the object being controlled. The control module for a more complex device, such as a spy Drone, Starship, Vehicle, or weapon turret, costs 10% of the device to be controlled.
There's many reasons why you would want to directly control the ship rather than use the starship computer as a proxy. For example, you might have a better computer than the starship's or a character who has multiple ships.
The computer rules say you can buy a complex control module for a starship or a weapon turret. The price for a module is 10% of the device being controlled. However, starships and starship weapons do not have listed prices. So how much is a complex control module for a starship?
They do have a listed price. It just happens to be in a currency that is different than the currency used for character equipment and has no readily available conversion rules.
A similar question came up last week in a reddit post; here is the response I wrote for the very same subject:
... a computer with the ability to fully control a ship in a planetary standard orbit would need to be of a tier equal to the ship computer's tier, and it would need the Range 3 upgrade. You would probably also want to miniaturize it so you're not dedicating a Vesk soldier to carrying a remote control rig.
For this example, let's assume a Tier 10 ship (and a Tier 5 ship computer,) with 90% available BP spent. A Tier 5 personal computer costs 10,000 credits. The Range 3 upgrade is an additional 100 credits. The computer starts out at 25 Bulk, so you need 5 levels of miniaturization to get it down to light Bulk - that costs 50% of the base computer price, or 5,000 credits!
So your handheld starship remote control costs 15,100 credits AND 27 BP for a Tier 10 ship.
For a Tier 1 ship, the cost is a much more reasonable 155 credits and 5 BP. (50 for the Tier 1 computer, 100 for the Range 3 upgrade, and 5 for 1 level of miniaturization. 5 BP is 10% of a Tier 1 ship's max cost.)
So, yes, it is possible for a 1st level character to remotely control their starship while in orbit above his head, and it doesn't have to drain his starting budget. Of course, that character must be somewhere with an infosphere or be able to directly network that computer into a planetwide communication system. No net access = no remote control boom-boom.
I made the assumption about the personal computer tier to avoid a mid-level party being able to call in an orbital strike from the Starfinder equivalent of an iPhone.
In addition, this method also circumvents a high-level class ability - namely, the level 19 mechanic ability that gives him the ability to exactly this for free as long as he has access to his custom rig.
Honestly, this is the sort of - dare I say it? - munchkin-ism I would avoid as a GM. Destroying your enemies from orbit with a ship-mounted laser weapon is (in my opinion) bad form and against the spirit of the Starfinder game as a whole.
However, if all of you other GM's see a need for this sort of hardware and gameplay option for your PC's, I wholeheartedly recommend that there be consequences for this sort of action. The Stewards could arrest the party for mass murder, their ship could be impounded, and they could lose membership in whatever benevolent organizations they have joined. An alignment shift could be enforced. If the party's crimes turn out to be especially heinous, they could be turned into xenos non grata and forced to flee the Pact Worlds for good.
I echo the call for an FAQ on the subject, if for no other reason than to define Paizo's view on the subject as developers of the game and campaign setting.
You can't directly attack creatures with starship weapons.
If you have control of a ship's primary computer, you have control of the ship.
Or did you think starships still used manual rudders and the like? Every command you put into your respective console would have to go through the ship's computer, which then handles the extreme complexities of all the super science tech throughout the ship.
This is further evidenced by the existence of things like minor crew actions, which are explicitly aided by the ship's computer--the computer that can already get the ship to do most anything given the proper command.
You can't directly attack creatures with starship weapons.
Yes you can, its just often difficult to do so. The rules even say to multiply the damage by a factor of 10, making it explicitly possible.
You can't directly attack creatures with starship weapons.
You are correct that there is no to-hit roll against a character's KAC/EAC to directly attack a single character-scale target with a starship weapon. However, the rules do state that you can do it as an area-of-effect attack, and you multiply all damage by 10 to convert it to character-scale. (This is the gist of the sidebar on page 292 of the CRB.)
Of course, if you're firing a nuclear missile at a character, a to-hit roll is rather pointless.
You can't directly attack creatures with starship weapons.However, the rules do state that you can do it as an area-of-effect attack, and you multiply all damage by 10 to convert it to character-scale. (This is the gist of the sidebar on page 292 of the CRB.)
No. The sidebar says starship weapon fire can be treated as "deadly hazards" by GM discretion. A hazard =/= area attack. A hazard is more like a trap or an obstacle.
No. The sidebar says starship weapon fire can be treated as "deadly hazards" by GM discretion. A hazard =/= area attack. A hazard is more like a trap or an obstacle.You can't directly attack creatures with starship weapons.However, the rules do state that you can do it as an area-of-effect attack, and you multiply all damage by 10 to convert it to character-scale. (This is the gist of the sidebar on page 292 of the CRB.)
Pedantic argument is pedantic.
I point the ships forwards weapons toward the general direction of an enemy and direct the ship to fire. Do I care if I'm aiming at a particular entity or not? No. Everything in that general direction is about to have a bad day, whether I'm specifically aiming at it or not.
The point I'm making is that you can't abuse starships to do orbital attacks or the like because the rules explicitly say that the GM has total discretion over whether that tactic works. And even if he/she approves it, the most it will do is make an area dangerous.
So using this as a reason why a control module for a starship shouldn't exist is ridiculous. Especially when the rulebook says you can buy one.
This all stems from the decision to have separate tracks for wealth and the (misguided IMHO) idea that starships (at least those capable of atmospheric operations) and ground battles would never, ever interact. It's going to take some work to fix it due to path dependency.
If the interaction never happens, it makes the spell Shadowy Fleet even less useful. If you never have ships show up and shoot at people, then no one should ever believe that they do when you cast this 6th level spell.
On the other-hand, maybe it gives a preview of what happens when you blast things with your guns, if a "fleet" only does 6d6 damage to a 60' area, with a reflex save.
Maybe one ship does 3 or 4d6 to a 10' area with a reflex save based on the ship level.
Did this question ever get answered? We have recently looked at ship mechanics and still could not find a specific price in building points for a module on a ship computer. If someone knows the answer, providing that answer with an example would be sincerely appreciated.
Its not that they *won't* ever interact, its that they *shouldn't* directly interact, at least at this stage of the game. Balancing the various rules and scenarios where ships attack ground targets would take more work than is practical to be included in the core rules.
Because, yes, "the PCs kill everything with their ship's guns" *is* a failure mode.
But rules for starship attacks against ground targets do exist via "deadly hazards," which are attacks that correlates with a CR on a chart.
CR/Attack Bonus/Damage
1/4 +3 2d4
1/3 +4 2d4
1/2 +6 3d4
1 +8 4d4
2 +9 5d4
3 +10 5d4
4 +11 5d6
5 +12 5d8
6 +14 6d8
7 +15 6d10
8 +17 7d10
9 +19 8d10
10 +20 9d10
11 +21 10d10
12 +23 11d10
13 +24 12d10
14 +25 14d10
15 +26 15d10
16 +28 17d10
17 +29 18d10
18 +30 20d10
19 +31 23d10
20 +32 25d10
Yes, but note that this does *not* involve the ship crew making attack rolls against ground targets, and doing their weapons' full and proper damage. It also occurs in a manner at the discretion of the GM ( if the GM says that your ship can't fire on the critters shooting at you without also hitting your party, then that is that ).Its not that they *won't* ever interact, its that they *shouldn't* directly interact, at least at this stage of the game. Balancing the various rules and scenarios where ships attack ground targets would take more work than is practical to be included in the core rules.
Because, yes, "the PCs kill everything with their ship's guns" *is* a failure mode.
But rules for starship attacks against ground targets do exist via "deadly hazards," which are attacks that correlates with a CR on a chart.
** spoiler omitted **
I get that the crew doesn't make their own attack rolls, but that's how they are modeling the situation since it explicitly says that you can't target an individual or even small group. The damage on the chart is really a blanket simulation of a ship weapon's inaccuracy against ground targets, but it doesn't say that buildings can't be targeted as normal for full damage.
Yes, it does say it's at the GM's discretion, but so is using the x10 damage conversion. Really, you generally can't get your x10 damage against someone, anyway, since you can't target people with ship weapons.
I'm not saying it's the best rule, but I get what they're trying to go for with it.