Hi - I have a scenario I'm playing on the board, and - as per usual - a couple of players have disappeared. The first, I had the PC just vanish as the scenario had barely started (this happens so often that I'm convinced some people here just play a win/lose game on getting through a recruitment and aren't interested in actually gaming); the second PC disappeared a few weeks in, having posted very sporadically.
So I'm now down to 4 real players and one zombie PC.
For the sake of the feel of the campaign, I'm inclined to bot the 5th player and then to lose & replace him at the end of the scenario (I'm playing a campaign of linked PFS scenarios); is botting PCs in this way OK under PFS? Any limits on what the character, as a GM NPC, can do?
Thanks
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It is no different then if a player gets up from a table and walks away.
You still have 4 PCs and a valid game. Just continue with the game as is. Do not bot the PC if there is no sign of him coming back. If you do run the PC and it uses consumables or even worse dies, then it can get really messy. Better to avoid that situation all together.
Also remember to report the "zombie" PC as he played the scenario and credit him with the appropriate XP, PP & Gold accrued until his last post.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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Sorry to hear that.
In this case, since you have a legal table with four players, you will need to drop the 5th zombie PC and run the scenario with just the four actual PCs left. (You can make the four player adjustment if appropriate for the scenario.)
The only time you can have a GM botted Pregen PC is if you only have three players and need to make the table legal with a fourth.
Best of luck with it and hope you guys have fun.
- Jesse
Jesse R. Davis [IronHelixx]
PFS Venture-Captain, Online Play
Jesse@PathfinderSocietyOnline.com
http://PathfinderSocietyOnline.com
Our Mission: To Champion, Serve, Support, and Build the PFS Online Community.
Ah OK. Many thanks.
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Okay, let's talk about botting in PFS, because I do it. Not only do I bot, but I have an entire alias set up to keep botted posts separate from my own.
I don't want to Bot a character who's disappeared completely. That's too much work, and unfair to the other characters who have earned their chronicle sheets by showing up and participating. However, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to have a Stated Bot Policy for when players are gone for a few days because of work or vacation.
It keeps combat moving and the flow of the game going. Oddly, I rarely have to bot my PCs. But having a stated bot policy in place is great. It sets the expectation that this is a fast-moving game, and that if you want to participate, you'd better post each day. It's even better when your PCs have bot action spoilers written on their character sheets in case of a surprise absence.
When I bot:
- I do not use limited character resources except in dire situations;
- I do the most straight forward character action in a combat.
You just have to be clear as a GM how you're doing it and why. Make sure that everyone knows your botting policy from the very start of each game.
Hmm
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Yeah, PbP breaks down if the GM can't move the action along until everyone posts. I usually have the missing PCs delay if they are gone without notice, or I follow their instructions or Stabdard Operating Procedures that I ask for when they say they'll be away. If someone walks away from the game, you keep playing just like you would if someone died, and you report them with the appropriate XP, etc.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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To clarify the broader issue of PC botting in PbP games, beyond the specific situation discussed above:
If a PbP player is going to be away for a short bit and they authorize another player or the GM to make some defined actions for them while they are away for whatever reason - that is no different than someone at an IRL table sliding their character sheet over to a friend at the table during a combat and saying "Hey, I really have to take this call - please do X,Y,Z until I get back". That is perfectly fine, if they agree to it.
If a player just flat out goes missing from a PbP game and they have not explicitly asked for their PC to be botted by the GM or another player then they should be put into delay, if in battle, and if they do not show up in a predefined amount of time (that should be explicitly stated by the GM at the start of the game) then they should immediately be removed from the game and given a sheet for what they successfully completed before they went AWOL.
- Jesse
Jesse R. Davis [IronHelixx]
PFS Venture-Captain, Online Play
Jesse@PathfinderSocietyOnline.com
http://PathfinderSocietyOnline.com
Our Mission: To Champion, Serve, Support, and Build the PFS Online Community.
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I'm not sure I like a blanket put them on delay answer.
Scenario: BBEG is severely wounded but all but 2 PCs are down. Player 1 has already acted this round, but player 2 disappears. The GM puts player 2 on delay. Seeing that one PC is hesitant, the BBEG attacks, and drops player 1.
Now what? Does the GM just have player 2 stand there while the GM posts another round of attacks every 24 hours until a TPK happens? What if one more hit from player 2 would have downed the BBEG?
What happens if the player disappears for good in the middle of a combat. Do you have to stop the combat and recalculate the new APL and number of players or does the remaining party have to fight the encounter as it was started. If the missing player was the level 5 PC in Tier 1-5 a party of levels 5, 3, 3, 2, 2, the remaining party is playing tier 4-5 with the 4-player adjustment, which is probably more than they can handle.
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This is why I have a Bot policy, and why I have my players agree to it at the start. I also ask them to notify me about upcoming absences, and I notify them about mine.
When I need to take a break, I tell my players how long that break will be and when I'll return. And then I return on that date. If good communications are happening across the table, it really helps you figure out if this PC absence is short term or a more problematic drop.
Hmm
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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Understood - It's a bad situation no matter what.
As another example, what happens if someone goes missing for a bit and the GM decides to bot the character to hurry and finish the current battle so the table does not bog down - and then the PC gets critted and near max damage by a bad guy, killing the PC.
In this example the GM moves the botted PC into a new position right next to the baddie to finish him off, misses, and the move backfires by getting the already injured PC killed in a single massive hit.
Shortly afterwards the player shows back up to the game and is super angry because "MY PC WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE THAT!"
The PC in question had always attacked things from range in every single combat and had not used his melee weapon in a single encounter, but the GM went straight to melee - so the player is very upset.
In the example above the player had not authorized anyone to bot the PC, and there was no agreed upon actions to take in his absence, nor a pre-defined amount of time of absence before the PC was to be botted.
There ends up being a lot of ruffled feathers on every side in this situation and certain VOs getting a lot of angry emails.
To avoid this every table should have a VERY clear and posted policy on what happens when a player goes missing during a combat, with a very clearly defined period of inactivity time before combat botting occurs.
Every player should also provide the GM with a set of "Standard Procedures/Actions" their PC would take should they go missing during combat.
The GM should also make every effort to contact the inactive player and warn the player of the botting possibility should they not post by a given pre-defined deadline.
With all that in place and a bot warning sent, the GM could then follow the PC's SOP defined by the player before the game started to bot the PC until the end of the combat.
After that, if the player has still not shown by the end of the combat encounter they should be dropped from the game - they should not be botted past the end of that combat encounter.
So... Long story short - have all procedures/policies in writing up front before the game starts, have an SOP for each PC before the game starts, GM bot responsibly - and that is the best you can do to make the best of a bad situation.
But if there are no posted bot practices in writing for your table before the game starts you should not bot a PC without the players permission/direction.
I'm not sure I like a blanket put them on delay answer.
Scenario: BBEG is severely wounded but all but 2 PCs are down. Player 1 has already acted this round, but player 2 disappears. The GM puts player 2 on delay. Seeing that one PC is hesitant, the BBEG attacks, and drops player 1.
Now what? Does the GM just have player 2 stand there while the GM posts another round of attacks every 24 hours until a TPK happens? What if one more hit from player 2 would have downed the BBEG?
What happens if the player disappears for good in the middle of a combat. Do you have to stop the combat and recalculate the new APL and number of players or does the remaining party have to fight the encounter as it was started. If the missing player was the level 5 PC in Tier 1-5 a party of levels 5, 3, 3, 2, 2, the remaining party is playing tier 4-5 with the 4-player adjustment, which is probably more than they can handle.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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PS - This is actually already on our list for the next PbP gameday. We'll have a posted guide on best practices and procedures for the event.
Also, it may be a good idea to have PCs add an evolving SOP to their character sheets so they do not have to redefine it at each table.
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Perhaps Guide 8.0 can have some info on PbP rules? Or a sample policy that GMs can just link to if they don't want to customize it? I've pulled bits of best practice from a bunch of GMs, but I haven't yet had a PC death-during-bot-mode to put it to the test.
I agree that putting a missing player on delay is not a good solution. it's pretty easy to sign up for PbP with no real commitment, or without understanding the time requirements. Even without that, it's easy to go missing unexepectedly for a day or two at a critical moment.
Personally, I'd rather deal with a player whose PC died while they were away because they didn't leave instructions, than to deal with four other PCs who died because the front-liner disappeared and left them in the lurch in a bad situation and the GM was forced to place them delay instead of having them act logically. Punishment should go to the person who stopped paying attention, not the person who played in good faith and had their comrade abandon them.
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How is that fair to the rest of the party that's slogged through to that point?
It could remove potential 'high' tier items from the party's grasp because someone bailed on the scenario.
In addition to the above, posts should make some sort of coherent sense.
If a player showed up to a table and just started randomly shoving their character all over the board, there'd be a legit outcry.
In at least one PbP I've been in, we had someone that would post about once every two weeks, a series of actions that were at least a week out of date, and then compromised our party -- as we all scrambled to regroup on them, we ended up getting 'strung out' and ultimately failed the scenario.
I actually just looked in on this thread again, which seems to have metastasised.
One suggestion I would have is that a L1/2 PC should be allowed to be botted and potentially die without anyone getting too worked up about it. I'm running campaigns as linked scenarios and if it's anything like APs there seems to be a higher drop off rate for new players than those who are long term committed to their character (not always the case).
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It is my profound hope that any policy written on the subject of PFS PbP would lean towards recommended practices rather than mandatory ones. It is part of the nature of PbP that some botting will occur. In my games, 90% of it comes at my player's own requests. I would hate to have some policy come down that would regulate this.
On the other hand, recommendations would be great!
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For instance, here are some practices that I would recommend that every PFS GM do on the first page of discussion:
1) Have your players roll day job rolls. Seriously. Beats hunting them down later.
2) Discuss your Bot Policy. Make sure they all buy-in. Heck, maybe do this as part of your recruitment.
3) Ask them for tactics when botting, or better yet, preformatted attack dice rolls!
(For an example of this, look what Nefreet did for Azara Emberkin under the "for use in play by posts" spoiler. Lovely!)
Hmm
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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In regard to yesterday's post - I was only addressing botting an actual player PC if the player goes AWOL - unfortunately I failed to outline all the available solutions and I can see that has led to some confusion. (There are rulings already in place for other solutions to the issue and those should be included in this discussion for full clarity.) When I get home I will try to clear things up a bit. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions and for adding to the conversation. Much appreciated.
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Thanks, Jesse!
The only reason that I leapt in here was that I was worried that your first post would be taken as a "no botting in PFS" ruling. That would likely end my career as a fast-paced PFS PbP GM.
I would have to be slo-o-o-ow instead. This would make me sad.
:-(
^ See? Sad face of a slow GM.
Instead, we can have:
>:)
^ Happy bunny face for a fast GM!
(Or maybe it's a hungry duck. It's hard to draw in text!)
Hmm
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I think the attitude towards botting someone should vary based on whether they were responsible and told everyone that they will out vs. them just outright disappearing without a trace. Having the courtesy to at least tell people what's going on (even if you don't tell them what the issue is) is very important.
For example, I am going to be the organizer of PFS at a convention this weekend. I told every single PbP game I'm in (Both playing and GMing) the situation, and in cases where I was a player, I told them to bot me and what instructions to follow for tactics for each character. I also told them what date I would be available again. I think that is a far cry from someone just disappearing for 3 weeks without a trace.
Life happens, but even so it's not a bad idea to at least have the courtesy to let people know what's going on.
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I agree that good communication is key. If you want it from your players, you should also provide it as a GM. Set the example. For example, just about every Wednesday is nuts for me. So I usually tell them, "It looks like I'm going to have another insane Wednesday, folks. See you tonight."
If taking a longer break, let your players know that too. "I've got a project that will keep me going until Friday. See you then."
If each time you return on time, that builds tremendous player trust. I've noticed that my players have gotten really good about notifying me about absences in advance, but I think that's partly due to the culture we've established.
Hmm
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Hmm... I for one would love to see your guide, but it would be even better if it was an official policy for PbP PFS.
Click. Whirr.
GM Hmm has been too busy with her new duties as Online Venture Lieutenant to complete the botting guide, so I wrote one.
Remember, don't bot irresponsibly. That's MY job!