Incorporeal Creatures using touch spells


Rules Questions


So tried finding in thread but coming up empty. So here is my question: can an incorporeal creature actually use a spell that requires a touch attack? From what I have found the answer would be no as they cannot physically interact with anything other that ghost touch items. And as ghost calls out "A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, but any relying on physical contact do not function." So a ghost paladin could not lay on hands to living paladin who was dying in front of them.

So is that right?


I would say that an incorporeal creature can make touch attacks based on this section in the Core Rulebook, describing touch AC:

Core Rulebook wrote:
Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.

Since this is targeted at PCs, who are usually not incorporeal, this implies that an incorporeal touch attack can strike a corporeal target.


For spell range it says "Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it." and in effect area it says "Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell."

So in both is says must be able to touch and an incorporeal cant touch a corporeal object or creature. So it can't?


They can make touch attacks. As an incorporeal creature that is all you can do with regard to touching someone.


I have found a few topics on this subject with varying viewpoints. It seems that most of the information on this subject actually comes from the ghost template.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/ghost

All ghosts get Corrupting Touch, which is described as an "incorporeal touch attack". Discussions I read reached a common conclusion; Incorporeal Touch Attack is a special term, meaning that the attack can be obstructed by force effects but otherwise uses the target's touch AC.

Some ghosts gain Draining Touch. This is listed only as a "touch attack". Interpretations I have seen indicate that this implies ghosts are able to make touch attacks.

Another line from the ghost template seems to run counter to this line of thinking. "A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, but any relying on physical contact do not function." It is possible that the line about physical contact was meant to refer to non-magical attacks, such as natural weapons or special attacks like Pounce, Rend, or Swallow Whole. Unfortunately the intent is not properly clarified. If taken by itself, this line would indicate that a ghost cannot deliver touch attacks. However, this line does not create a direct association between touch attacks and physical contact.

So I guess that brings us to a better question. Does a touch attack count as physical contact? Touch attacks pass through armor and shields, meaning the attacker does not need to make direct contact with the target, but must still establish a form of indirect contact, since deflection and dexterity bonuses still apply.

Since any touch attack of any relevance carries some form of magic, we can probably use the Incorporeal template to answer this question.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Incorporeal-Ex-

The reference to an incorporeal creature's attacks from this entry seems to match up with the Incorporeal Touch Attack descriptor from the Ghost.

For all other effects, we can take the first paragraph of the Incorporeal description and apply it conversely. If corporeal magic sources deal 50% damage or have a 50% chance of delivering non-damage effects against incorporeal creatures, then incorporeal magic sources deal 50% damage or have a 50% chance of delivering non-damage effects against corporeal creatures.

Corrupting touch is exempt from the half-damage rule, as it has already been established as a special case. Unfortunately, this does raise the dilemma that Draining Touch would have a 50% chance of failure even on a successful touch attack (unless using Possession/Malevolence to act as a corporeal creature).

Note that, until very recently, I used the interpretation that ghosts could not deliver touch-based spells or effects, due in large part to the statement that they could not use special attacks relying on physical contact. Reading several discussions on the topic changed my opinion, although I have yet to find definitive proof either way.


Additional reference:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ksx3


Take a look at Dustform, a 6th level spell. It turns the caster incorporeal and allows him to use his abilities and cast spells as normal.

If incorporeal undead could not touch someone, how do you think they make their touch attacks?


I interpret this that an incorporeal creature cannot apply force to a corporeal object per creature. A touch spell or special ability is a form of energy that has to be grounded in it's target.


Vatras wrote:
Take a look at Dustform, a 6th level spell. It turns the caster incorporeal and allows him to use his abilities and cast spells as normal.

Dust Form is a poor reference, as it suffers from overly vague wording on its own. Most specifically the line, "Magic attacks are unaffected." One can assume from context but not confirm that this statement references the Dust Form creature's attacks, rather than those directed against it. Even then, 'unaffected' is horribly vague. Unaffected by being in Dust Form? Unaffected by being incorporeal? Unaffected by a lack of fingers, lungs, or a spell component pouch? And why even mention it unless being incorporeal would somehow affect the subject's magic attacks in the first place?

Setting that line aside, the subject of Dust Form is called incorporeal, yet is described as squeezing like an ooze. Why squeeze when you can phase through solid objects? The whole spell reeks of poor wording, with incorporeality used as a shortcut to describe gaining resistances and immunities from a lack of solid vital organs.


Additional reference:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o0ur


Dust Form reference:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozbf


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Incorporeal creatures can make touch spell attacks. Visually, this means that an incorporeal creature phases an attacking limb or appendage within the target as the spell flows into the target.

Mechanically, corporeal creatures only affect incorporeal targets 50% of the time (unless using ectoplasmic spell metamagic, or a ghost touch item). An incorporeal creature will have a 100% chance of spells and special abilities affect corporeal targets while physical non-magical attacks are harmless (unless using ghost touch items).

If it didn't work that way, then ghosts and other incorporeal undead would be completely worthless as opponents.

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