Mythic path - Competent Caster


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hi there, I've been studying the design of pathfinder, and lately it caught my eyes Competent Caster from Mythic Adventure. I'm just wondering, once a caster took this path, there is no way to stop him from casting spell except his highest level. So why there are no path ability to stop that? I've been running duals against players at level 20 with 10 tiers of mythic, whatever points they want to buy, I let them. My only rules are no full casters, any starting distant they want and whatever the have, I have the same value. So they keep trying to build a mage killing builds against my sorcerer, but so far they have never beat me because there are no way to stop me from casting spell because I took improved initiative mythic and competent caster. They are at the end of their high level campaign and they are dualing this sorcerer for godhood. They reborn back as whatever their character wish to be and can try as many time as they can.

So at a design standpoint, I'm just wondering what are the thoughts behind competent caster path ability? I get the point of ensure casters can have fun casting spells, but personally, I would design it so it only works once per round if not once per tier each day. Any thoughts?


What happens if someone readies a <i>silence</i> for the event the sorcerer casts a spell?

What happens if someone grapples the sorcerer?

What happens if the sorcerer is <i>feebleminded</i>?

What happens if the sorcerer is blinded? Or stunned? Or dazed? Or nauseated?

What happens if the sorcerer gets counterspelled?

What happens if someone readies a <i>wall of force</i> to block the sorcerer's line-of-effect?

My point is that there are many, many tactics that can be used against any Pathfinder character, mythic or not. Many of them require planning. Some of them are conditional. But if the only tool in your toolbox to defeat a caster is "do damage to him as he casts", you've missed hundreds of pages in the book.

Also, this game is about party work. To say "you're not allowed to have a caster" is ignoring the fundamental design of the game that you're "studying".

I played a mythic campaign to 20/10, playing a mythic psion, and I too had massive initiative, and I had massive bonuses to concentration checks, but I was absolutely not un-killable. Well, except for that I had a party to fill in my weaknesses.


My players did silenced my sorcerer, but I can cast silent spell.
My players tried grapple my sorcerer, but I auto pass the concentration check and killed him.
My players can't use spell so can't use feebleminded.
My player tried blinded my sorcerer, but they can't because I went invisible after I went first.
They tried to counterspell but they can't match my spells' levels.
They can't use wall of force so yea, no full casters.

I'm just trying to see if the party and find a way to beat full caster on equal footings without being full caster. My party are enjoying the exploration of this final test but they start to find it impossible because of how Competent Caster works. So I'm wondering if there is a balance behind this or sometime. I'm not ignoring anything fundamental design of the game, they are having fun, that is all to it. I'm just studying this because in design, we taught to balance the game so on one is the best. So there must be a way to bypass this path or suppress it somehow. Or perhaps there are reason behind this, that's what I'm trying to find out.


DoubleBubble wrote:
My players did silenced my sorcerer, but I can cast silent spell.

You can't attribute that to Competent Caster.

Quote:
My players tried grapple my sorcerer, but I auto pass the concentration check and killed him.

"Casting Spells while Grappled/Grappling: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand."

What about the fact you can't cast anything with somatic components while grappled?

Let me guess. "I can cast still spells." Which again isn't anything to do with Competent Caster.

Quote:
My players can't use spell so can't use feebleminded.

Saw that one coming.

Quote:
My player tried blinded my sorcerer, but they can't because I went invisible after I went first.

Because you're the only one who can take Mythic Improved Initiative?

Also... see invisibility.

Quote:
They tried to counterspell but they can't match my spells' levels.

Right. So again, Competent Caster is broken.

Quote:
They can't use wall of force so yea, no full casters.

Not so. Magus gets it.

Quote:
I'm just trying to see if the party and find a way to beat full caster on equal footings without being full caster.

NOT EQUAL FOOTING. You've removed a massive part of the game from their repertoire. And you're blaming the results on a single mythic ability.

What about a witch using Slumber Hex? No, it gets 9th-level spells. Okay, there's got to be an archetype somewhere that gets a non-caster one hex. No. Your rules are "my players have to kill a unshackled mythic caster by punching it in the face".

Quote:
My party are enjoying the exploration of this final test but they start to find it impossible because of how Competent Caster works.

NO. Maybe they're enjoying themselves, but your conclusion as to the cause of the impossibility isn't correct. It's like saying "I built a fighter and none of my players can kill it, but I don't let them have any magic items, and my fighter had everything crafted, so has more than usual."

Quote:
So I'm wondering if there is a balance behind this or sometime.

No. There's nothing wrong with the ability. It closes ONE method by which a caster can be stopped. You've decided to close the rest via other means. That's not the ability's fault.

Quote:
I'm not ignoring anything fundamental design of the game, they are having fun, that is all to it.

That's good, and enjoy, but given that something like half of the Core Rulebook (three classes, most of the Magic and Spells section) is forbidden to your players absolutely, positively, definitely doesn't provide any valuable insight as to how an ability is balanced.

Normally your sorcerer would have to worry about amusing things like antimagic field. But nah... Competent Caster is broken.

Quote:
I'm just studying this because in design, we taught to balance the game so on one is the best.

Theorycrafting is fun, but your method is faulty.

Quote:
So there must be a way to bypass this path or suppress it somehow. Or perhaps there are reason behind this, that's what I'm trying to find out.

There are many ways to bypass it. You've just forbidden them all.

Incidentally, you may find it amusing that in our Wrath campaign, we one-shotted the end-game boss. With a sword. Well. A sword and a spell. Because teamwork. Read mythic wish some time and imagine how it might be coupled with say... a vorpal sword.


Because I need to beat this horse.

Pick any class you do allow and give them the following. Maybe a monk.

I had great fun with Chaos, Community, Glory and Good domains. Community gives miracle by the way. Enjoy all the daily 25,000gp very powerful miracles because spell-like abilities don't have material components. "Make the enemy sorcerer vulnerable to X, Y, or Z" would be reasonable. Or "make him go last", or "stun him for one round" or "make it so the first time he kills us, it doesn't take", or any of a number of vaguely-worded but specific miracles.

No? Okay, then just emulate 8th-level cleric spells or 7th-level non-cleric spells. The monk with antimagic field should be able to ruin the sorcerer's day pretty quickly. Sure, you probably have to play the same initiative-pumping games the sorcerer has but fair is fair.

So either we're asking "is Competent Caster broken", in which case the answer remains "not at all", or we're asking "can an optimized mythic caster be killed by non-casters?"

Divine Source (Su): You can grant divine spells to those who follow your cause, allowing them to select you as their deity for the purposes of determining their spells and domains. Select two domains upon taking this ability. These domains must be alignment domains matching your alignment if possible, unless your alignment is neutral. You grant access to these domains as if you were a deity. Creatures
that gain spells from you don’t receive any spells per day of levels higher than your tier; they lose those spell slots. In addition, you can cast spells from domains you grant as long as their level is equal to or less than your tier. Each day as a spell-like ability, you can cast one spell of each level equal to or less than your tier (selecting from those available to you from your divine source domains). If you’re a cleric or you venerate a deity, you may change your spell domains to those you grant others. At 6th tier and 9th tier, you can select this ability again, adding one domain and two subdomains (see the Advanced Player’s Guide) to your list each time and adding their spells to the list of those that you can cast.


Couple of things, you can still cast spell while being grappled, I let my player grappled the caster at the start for free. Automatically passed the check with Competent Caster. Antimagic field can't stop me from moving out unless I got grappled first, but that the players said it's just lost the point, both side supposed to be on equal footing in a dual, so we stop trying to give the players and advantages.

Secondly, I didn't allow my players to have full casters because they want to see if there is a way for non-full caster to be caster in mythic. And so I set that final trial up for them to test it. And so far all their witch hunting build are useless because most witch hunting builds are based on making caster level checks harder by either increase the DC for caster level check or having spell resistance. So they found the Competent Caster is one of the bigger reason they can't stop me from casting. As long as I don't cast at my highest spell level, nothing they do can stop me.

Lastly, The question I've been asking all along is what people think the thought behind the design of Competent Caster. Not any of those questions you think we are asking about so I have no idea what you are on about all this time. Nothing you said so far answer my question. What you think the thought behind this path. Why is it not like other path ability that will need to spend mythic point, or perhaps once per round? Any thought why they made it this way? No?


Magus, spell access for AMF, Dimensional Agility.
Turn 1 Quicken DD + Spell Combat AMF + grapple. Done.

Tha's not counting how many well built chargers can OTK him if they win initiative.


DoubleBubble wrote:
Couple of things, you can still cast spell while being grappled, I let my player grappled the caster at the start for free.

To be clear, you can cast spells that do not have somatic components while grappled. Yes, you may have stacked the deck with Still Spell, as I mentioned in my second post.

Quote:
Automatically passed the check with Competent Caster. Antimagic field can't stop me from moving out unless I got grappled first, but that the players said it's just lost the point, both side supposed to be on equal footing in a dual, so we stop trying to give the players and advantages.

Not sure what the second sentence means. But yeah, the point is to grapple the sorcerer. Or Stunning Fist him. Or tanglefoot bag him. With AMF up, the options become dramatically limited for the sorcerer and if the dice aren't in his favor, he's dead meat.

Quote:
Secondly, I didn't allow my players to have full casters because they want to see if there is a way for non-full caster to be caster in mythic.

And there we have it. It's not about the specific ability you've asked about. It's about the whole set of limitations you've placed on the theorycrafting session.

Quote:
And so I set that final trial up for them to test it. And so far all their witch hunting build are useless because most witch hunting builds are based on making caster level checks harder by either increase the DC for caster level check or having spell resistance. So they found the Competent Caster is one of the bigger reason they can't stop me from casting. As long as I don't cast at my highest spell level, nothing they do can stop me.

Other than the things I've brought up.

Quote:
Lastly, The question I've been asking all along is what people think the thought behind the design of Competent Caster. Not any of those questions you think we are asking about so I have no idea what you are on about all this time. Nothing you said so far answer my question. What you think the thought behind this path. Why is it not like other path ability that will need to spend mythic point, or perhaps once per round? Any thought why they made it this way? No?

There's nothing wrong with the ability. I've said it repeatedly. It's not broken because it's not meant to be used as you are using it.


Archmage -> Competent Caster is nowhere near the level of broken you can get with other paths.

Trying fighting a permanently invisible rogue champion/trickster with Undetectable.


I think that it should apply for concentration checks outside grappling, but RAW Competent Caster says that you automatically pass any concentration check when casting a spell with a level lower than 9 (at your level).
If you really really want something that can kill you, you may as well face a magus 19/slayer 1.
Quick build:
Magus arcana - Spell Blending x2: grab contingent action and contingency
Feat - Merciless Butchery: coup the grace is a standard action against whoever you studied.
Path Ability - Mythic Spellcasting: grab contingency

There is an archetype that gives sneak attack to the magus.

Now you can have up to 6 contingencies on you. They are contingent action in this order: Study, Move Adjacent, Grapple, Pin, Tie up, Coup the grace.
Be sure to have an Artifact.


ElMustacho wrote:

I think that it should apply for concentration checks outside grappling, but RAW Competent Caster says that you automatically pass any concentration check when casting a spell with a level lower than 9 (at your level).

If you really really want something that can kill you, you may as well face a magus 19/slayer 1.
Quick build:
Magus arcana - Spell Blending x2: grab contingent action and contingency
Feat - Merciless Butchery: coup the grace is a standard action against whoever you studied.
Path Ability - Mythic Spellcasting: grab contingency

There is an archetype that gives sneak attack to the magus.

Now you can have up to 6 contingencies on you. They are contingent action in this order: Study, Move Adjacent, Grapple, Pin, Tie up, Coup the grace.
Be sure to have an Artifact.

I would expect both the Magus and the Sorcerer to have Mirror Dodge.


This may not be what you are looking for, but what about Mythic Spellbreaker?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/spellbreaker-mythic wrote:

Spellbreaker (Mythic)

You're a spellcaster's worst nightmare.

Prerequisite(s): Spellbreaker.

Benefit: Any non-mythic creature you threaten provokes an attack of opportunity from you whenever it uses a spell or spell-like ability, even when casting defensively or casting a quickened spell.

If a non-mythic creature within 30 feet of you uses a spell or spell-like ability, you can expend one use of mythic power to make a ranged attack against that creature as an attack of opportunity (even if the creature wouldn't normally provoke attacks of opportunity). You must have a ranged weapon in hand or have a free hand and the non-mythic Quick Draw feat to use this ability. You can use this ability against a mythic creature by expending two uses of mythic power.

For the cost of two uses of mythic power, they can still get an AoO when the sorcerer casts. With a well-made archer or gunslinging fighter, they might be able to take them out.

Combine that maybe with a party member that's built to be a bodyguard (maybe with the Smash from the Air feat) and maybe a hexcrafter (and/or a mesmerist), they can probably succeed.


haremlord wrote:

This may not be what you are looking for, but what about Mythic Spellbreaker?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/spellbreaker-mythic wrote:

Spellbreaker (Mythic)

You're a spellcaster's worst nightmare.

Prerequisite(s): Spellbreaker.

Benefit: Any non-mythic creature you threaten provokes an attack of opportunity from you whenever it uses a spell or spell-like ability, even when casting defensively or casting a quickened spell.

If a non-mythic creature within 30 feet of you uses a spell or spell-like ability, you can expend one use of mythic power to make a ranged attack against that creature as an attack of opportunity (even if the creature wouldn't normally provoke attacks of opportunity). You must have a ranged weapon in hand or have a free hand and the non-mythic Quick Draw feat to use this ability. You can use this ability against a mythic creature by expending two uses of mythic power.

For the cost of two uses of mythic power, they can still get an AoO when the sorcerer casts. With a well-made archer or gunslinging fighter, they might be able to take them out.

Combine that maybe with a party member that's built to be a bodyguard (maybe with the Smash from the Air feat) and maybe a hexcrafter (and/or a mesmerist), they can probably succeed.

Thanks for the tips, i will let the players try this out.


okay. We know competent caster is not broken because there are ways caster can be shut down, like another caster. But my question was why you think it was design this way? See, parry spell is a 3rd tier ability, but it only works once per round as immediate action and you need to expand one use of mythic power, also it still require an attack roll and it only affect ray or single target spell, so AOEs doesn't matter. While Competent Caster is a 1st tier ability that can be use as many time per round and as long as you have spells that are not at your highest spell level without having to spend any mythic power. So as players, as GMs, what do you guys think about this ability and why you think the designers made it this way.

May I add this, I'm not looking for advice here on how to beat me, because my players know if they make a wizard or some sort, they will beat me easily. What we are after is what you guys think of the design of this, as a general discussion.


Snowlilly wrote:
ElMustacho wrote:

I think that it should apply for concentration checks outside grappling, but RAW Competent Caster says that you automatically pass any concentration check when casting a spell with a level lower than 9 (at your level).

If you really really want something that can kill you, you may as well face a magus 19/slayer 1.
Quick build:
Magus arcana - Spell Blending x2: grab contingent action and contingency
Feat - Merciless Butchery: coup the grace is a standard action against whoever you studied.
Path Ability - Mythic Spellcasting: grab contingency

There is an archetype that gives sneak attack to the magus.

Now you can have up to 6 contingencies on you. They are contingent action in this order: Study, Move Adjacent, Grapple, Pin, Tie up, Coup the grace.
Be sure to have an Artifact.

I would expect both the Magus and the Sorcerer to have Mirror Dodge.

By taking the feat Mythic Paragon, you are considered 2 tier higher for the effects of spells and other stuff; this allows another contingent action which is "Follow the caster".


DoubleBubble wrote:

okay. We know competent caster is not broken because there are ways caster can be shut down, like another caster. But my question was why you think it was design this way? See, parry spell is a 3rd tier ability, but it only works once per round as immediate action and you need to expand one use of mythic power, also it still require an attack roll and it only affect ray or single target spell, so AOEs doesn't matter. While Competent Caster is a 1st tier ability that can be use as many time per round and as long as you have spells that are not at your highest spell level without having to spend any mythic power. So as players, as GMs, what do you guys think about this ability and why you think the designers made it this way.

May I add this, I'm not looking for advice here on how to beat me, because my players know if they make a wizard or some sort, they will beat me easily. What we are after is what you guys think of the design of this, as a general discussion.

How many times a round can a sorcerer, mythic or not, typically cast a spell? Twice. One Quickened Spell as a swift, which does not provoke, and one as a standard action. If opponents have readied actions, their damage stacks into a single concentration check. There aren't a lot of scenarios where a caster will be called upon to make multiple concentration checks per round.

Parry Spell on the other hand could easily be needed multiple times per round. Likely it got limited to once because it needed to, where Competent Caster is nearly self-limited.

Also, Parry Spell is a disabler, not an enabler. Know how condition removal spells usually come up one level later than those that create conditions? There's a preference for abilities that do things over those that negate things, overall. Not a flat rule, and there are plenty of exceptions, but there's a trend.

Finally, with an unlimited, cost-less Parry Spell, a single NPC could negate every caster in a party (4-on-1 being the usual scenario). With Competent Caster, that same single NPC just has a higher likelihood of getting to DO something, and probably only once per round. There's also nothing to do to prevent your spell being parried, while (as we've established) there are about fifty bazillion ways to smack around a caster with Competent Caster.

In short, it's just not nearly as good an ability.


ElMustacho wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
ElMustacho wrote:

I think that it should apply for concentration checks outside grappling, but RAW Competent Caster says that you automatically pass any concentration check when casting a spell with a level lower than 9 (at your level).

If you really really want something that can kill you, you may as well face a magus 19/slayer 1.
Quick build:
Magus arcana - Spell Blending x2: grab contingent action and contingency
Feat - Merciless Butchery: coup the grace is a standard action against whoever you studied.
Path Ability - Mythic Spellcasting: grab contingency

There is an archetype that gives sneak attack to the magus.

Now you can have up to 6 contingencies on you. They are contingent action in this order: Study, Move Adjacent, Grapple, Pin, Tie up, Coup the grace.
Be sure to have an Artifact.

I would expect both the Magus and the Sorcerer to have Mirror Dodge.
By taking the feat Mythic Paragon, you are considered 2 tier higher for the effects of spells and other stuff; this allows another contingent action which is "Follow the caster".

And the sorcerer could have a similar series of contingent actions designed to keep him out of melee ....

Right now it is the schrodinger's wizard game, in the most literal sense. Both opponents really do have every theoretically available spell available at will.


Anguish wrote:
DoubleBubble wrote:

okay. We know competent caster is not broken because there are ways caster can be shut down, like another caster. But my question was why you think it was design this way? See, parry spell is a 3rd tier ability, but it only works once per round as immediate action and you need to expand one use of mythic power, also it still require an attack roll and it only affect ray or single target spell, so AOEs doesn't matter. While Competent Caster is a 1st tier ability that can be use as many time per round and as long as you have spells that are not at your highest spell level without having to spend any mythic power. So as players, as GMs, what do you guys think about this ability and why you think the designers made it this way.

May I add this, I'm not looking for advice here on how to beat me, because my players know if they make a wizard or some sort, they will beat me easily. What we are after is what you guys think of the design of this, as a general discussion.

How many times a round can a sorcerer, mythic or not, typically cast a spell? Twice. One Quickened Spell as a swift, which does not provoke, and one as a standard action. If opponents have readied actions, their damage stacks into a single concentration check. There aren't a lot of scenarios where a caster will be called upon to make multiple concentration checks per round.

Parry Spell on the other hand could easily be needed multiple times per round. Likely it got limited to once because it needed to, where Competent Caster is nearly self-limited.

Also, Parry Spell is a disabler, not an enabler. Know how condition removal spells usually come up one level later than those that create conditions? There's a preference for abilities that do things over those that negate things, overall. Not a flat rule, and there are plenty of exceptions, but there's a trend.

Finally, with an unlimited, cost-less Parry Spell, a single NPC could negate every caster in a party (4-on-1 being the usual scenario). With...

Okay. I see. But I believe that with Mythic's amazing initiative, you can spend mythic point to make an addition standard action, which allow you to use magical items, such as a wand or a scroll. Which equal casting a spell. So it's like three spell in first round, and not many builds can survive two spells.

I couldn't agree more that it would be crazy for someone to have unlimited parry spell. However, I still believe there should be a cost or limit on using competent caster. Either would seems fair, but not both. Once per round seems perfectly fine to me as you will always be able to cast one spell which will change the tide or the battle or escape. Say you fighting someone with parry spell with a quicken spell, which he blocked, you will still have the option of escape, or stand and fight with damage or disable spell. Once per round is not bad, one because one, you still have one spell to use per round. Two, if your opponent really was built to fight against spell caster with lots of SR, now their SR is not a waste of investment, which is fair because now only one of your spell will pass his SR automatically. Instead of shut down everything that invest in SR all together. If he has max SR and parry spell, don't you think he deserve to be able to fight a spell caster with a better chance of winning?

That's just my thought in how I think about the design of it, but you did show me that there could be some reason behind such design. So thank you.


DoubleBubble wrote:
Okay. I see. But I believe that with Mythic's amazing initiative, you can spend mythic point to make an addition standard action, which allow you to use magical items, such as a wand or a scroll. Which equal casting a spell. So it's like three spell in first round, and not many builds can survive two spells.

Glad we can come to peaceful close on this, if not agreement.

I just wanted to quickly drop a response to this one too. I'm sure you're aware that wands and scrolls would have to be in-hand to be used too, unless you chew up a move to get them out of storage. Even then, they function at a caster-level massively lower than your 20th/10th. While gold isn't hard to come by at that level, and you are doing a dual, not normal play, these will still be much easier to resist. And if you can buy them, the players can buy them, and use UMD on them.

If that's on the table, a nice scroll of wish should work nicely to ask for something simple like "disable the sorcerer's ability to automatically make concentration checks for one round."


Anguish wrote:
DoubleBubble wrote:
Okay. I see. But I believe that with Mythic's amazing initiative, you can spend mythic point to make an addition standard action, which allow you to use magical items, such as a wand or a scroll. Which equal casting a spell. So it's like three spell in first round, and not many builds can survive two spells.

Glad we can come to peaceful close on this, if not agreement.

I just wanted to quickly drop a response to this one too. I'm sure you're aware that wands and scrolls would have to be in-hand to be used too, unless you chew up a move to get them out of storage. Even then, they function at a caster-level massively lower than your 20th/10th. While gold isn't hard to come by at that level, and you are doing a dual, not normal play, these will still be much easier to resist. And if you can buy them, the players can buy them, and use UMD on them.

If that's on the table, a nice scroll of wish should work nicely to ask for something simple like "disable the sorcerer's ability to automatically make concentration checks for one round."

Perhaps my players have been working so hard on finding abilities or mythic path that can beat a caster, they forgot to look at UMD. I will let them know! Thank you!

One of my players is a bit upset because he keep wanting to prove that SR can be useful for martial, but with competent caster, he didn't stand a chance. I told him SR is one of the worst get in high level, let alone mythic when competent caster is there. He love to play a hero who block spells all day like they show in the anime. lol

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Mythic path - Competent Caster All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion