Communicating with Intelligent Summoned Monsters

[nosig]

Lorewalker wrote:

nosig wrote:

could a earthgliding wildshaped druid cast spells inside "solid" rock? or would he have to move to the edge of a wall to summon an earth elemental out in "open air"?

I personally would allow that summon as legal. An earth elemental does not consider a rock as a solid barrier(more like water) and it is not a hostile environment for the elemental. Just designate the space directly in front of you and the elemental should appear right in front of you.

But this is SUCH a corner case expect serious table variation.

It wouldn't even be a question if you were burrowing in such a way that left a tunnel as you could summon them into the tunnel.

I played Bonekeep 1 with the Iconic Druid (in Core) and actually did this (Earthglide and Summon - though I did summon into the rooms, and not into the rock)... but I guess I am often doing corner cases.

[Ascalaphus]

nosig wrote:

could a earthgliding wildshaped druid cast spells inside "solid" rock?

Only the ones that don't require line of effect, such as touch/self spells.

nosig wrote:

or would he have to move to the edge of a wall to summon an earth elemental out in "open air"?

It's probably okay to cast spells into adjacent non-rock areas, but I'd apply the same rules as an incorporeal creature attacking from out of a wall while not leaving the wall space (50% miss chance on any targeting, and can be hit by readied actions when it sticks out a hand to gain line of effect).

[Ascalaphus]

Lorewalker wrote:

nosig wrote:

could a earthgliding wildshaped druid cast spells inside "solid" rock? or would he have to move to the edge of a wall to summon an earth elemental out in "open air"?

I personally would allow that summon as legal. An earth elemental does not consider a rock as a solid barrier(more like water) and it is not a hostile environment for the elemental. Just designate the space directly in front of you and the elemental should appear right in front of you.

But this is SUCH a corner case expect serious table variation.

It wouldn't even be a question if you were burrowing in such a way that left a tunnel as you could summon them into the tunnel.

The thing is that the spell would consider the rock a solid barrier.

And I have trouble even coming up with an example of a burrowing method without the "tunnels collapse" caveats attached, they're that rare.

[nosig]

Clearly there is a lot of YMMV in this area...

[Tabletop Giant]

nosig wrote:

Clearly there is a lot of YMMV in this area...

Totally.

It is pretty clear within this thread that this spell has multiple issues that can cause it to vary from table to table. It would be awesome if the Summon Monster chain of spells were to be given a solid workover by Paizo designers. A lot of these questions can be cleared up and worked out.

Here is a further question for you all to consider. This question plays into the background story of 'Summon Monster', and I think it may be important in considering how the creatures summoned might behave and interact with their summoners.

When I first began to play this game again several years ago (prior to that my experience was all AD&D in the 1980's), I was told by my GM (who was and is a great fellow) that summoned monsters are *not* actual monsters that are somehow magically transported to you to do your bidding. Instead, they are powerful creations of pure magic, and the magic has manifested itself into the shape and powers of the being so conjured.

This is why you can send one of these monsters into certain doom; they don't care, because they don't really exist. They are pure magic squished into a solid frame of a fire beetle, ankylosaurus, earth elemental, or whatever. You are not actually dealing with a real fire beetle or a real ankylosaurus; instead, it is just a big ball of magic that looks and behaves like one.

If this is true, then this is what I would like to see:

Communication: The current rules regarding the limitation of commanding your creature based upon your ability to communicate with its specific language (in the case of 'intelligent' summoned creatures) or handle animal (for those less than intelligent beings) should be done away with entirely. The reason is this - it is not an actual being. It is a summoned thing of pure magic that you have instantiated into the universe, temporarily, to do your bidding, and it is absolutely subservient to you. Therefore, as a magical being who's temporary existence is completely bound to your will, it should obey your orders out of the box regardless of intelligence or language.

Obviously this is not PFS legal as it currently stands; but I'm offering it as a suggestion to the powers above in helping to clear up this spell's language. If the beings summoned through it are truly made of magic and do not actually exist, then they should obey their masters regardless of language or intelligence.

If the beings summoned are actually real, and are some poor unfortunate monster that got magically teleported to your location to do your bidding, then the language barrier could logically continue; however, that also begs the question - why would an intelligent being allow itself to be sent into certain doom on the caster's whim? Most spells that can force another creature to enter a situation in which it most certainly will die are big-magic spells with saving throws. Why wouldn't a summoned creature - if they are 'real' creatures - get a saving throw so it could potentially escape a situation in which it is magically commanded to charge into certain death?

This complication leads me to feel that the former description is likely correct; these are magical beings without a will of their own. And, as a being of pure magic who's existence completely relies upon the will power of the caster, it should understand that caster's orders to it regardless of boundaries of language or animal intelligence.

!

[TwilightKnight]

Hmmm, I don't really think that is entirely what the designers had in mind, but it is a good way to view summoned creatures. Just more of a home-rule.

I think that a summoned creature is exactly that. A creature ripped away from its native location to briefly serve the whims of a "powerful" conjurer. I think the intention is that if/when they are killed, they are actually just shunted back to their original existence, completely intact. Some older versions of the game may have referred to things like this as avatars. However, this is nothing to say they don't experience the pain and suffering of the avatar before being returned. Kind of a bad deal really.

I don't think this applies to everything either. As I recall, demons, devils, angels, etc are not actually killed when slain anywhere but their home plane. Their essence is returned and "reborn" into a new creature, sometimes of a much lower order. Only by slaying them on their home plane can you permanently destroy their "soul." But, that might have been system specific too and not applicable to Pathfinder. It might also only apply to creatures that actually gate to another plane vs. being summoned. The fact that the power to summon another creature of their kind is deactivated if they, themselves are summoned, seems to indicate the two modes of transport/existence have different parameters.

[Auke Teeninga]

I've got a lot of characters that can summon (I think >75% actually has Augment Summoning) and here's my advice:

1. Don't make your party members obsolete.

Never summon anything that is not needed. Why summon a new minion if your current ones can take care of it! ;-) Feel free to summon something to give a flanking bonus though.

2. Restrict your character to certain summons.

If every summoning character summons the same creatures it will be boring

3. Make sure you can communicate with your favorite summons.

See point 2. If you limit yourself to specific summons this will be quite easy as well. My 11 year old nephew spent 4 points on linguistics and 'only' summons elementals. The amount of encounters he ''fixed' (read: broke) is impressive.

[Lorewalker]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Lorewalker wrote:

nosig wrote:

could a earthgliding wildshaped druid cast spells inside "solid" rock? or would he have to move to the edge of a wall to summon an earth elemental out in "open air"?

I personally would allow that summon as legal. An earth elemental does not consider a rock as a solid barrier(more like water) and it is not a hostile environment for the elemental. Just designate the space directly in front of you and the elemental should appear right in front of you.

But this is SUCH a corner case expect serious table variation.

It wouldn't even be a question if you were burrowing in such a way that left a tunnel as you could summon them into the tunnel.

The thing is that the spell would consider the rock a solid barrier.

And I have trouble even coming up with an example of a burrowing method without the "tunnels collapse" caveats attached, they're that rare.

The burrow spell would function this way. It does collapse, but it takes a round for that to happen. Plenty of time to move and then summon.

[Lorewalker]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

I've got a lot of characters that can summon (I think >75% actually has Augment Summoning) and here's my advice:

1. Don't make your party members obsolete.

Never summon anything that is not needed. Why summon a new minion if your current ones can take care of it! ;-) Feel free to summon something to give a flanking bonus though.

2. Restrict your character to certain summons.

If every summoning character summons the same creatures it will be boring

3. Make sure you can communicate with your favorite summons.

See point 2. If you limit yourself to specific summons this will be quite easy as well. My 11 year old nephew spent 4 points on linguistics and 'only' summons elementals. The amount of encounters he ''fixed' (read: broke) is impressive.

Wizards and the like have issues talking with animals which is what most summons are.

[Lorewalker]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Hmmm, I don't really think that is entirely what the designers had in mind, but it is a good way to view summoned creatures. Just more of a home-rule.

I think that a summoned creature is exactly that. A creature ripped away from its native location to briefly serve the whims of a "powerful" conjurer. I think the intention is that if/when they are killed, they are actually just shunted back to their original existence, completely intact. Some older versions of the game may have referred to things like this as avatars. However, this is nothing to say they don't experience the pain and suffering of the avatar before being returned. Kind of a bad deal really.

I don't think this applies to everything either. As I recall, demons, devils, angels, etc are not actually killed when slain anywhere but their home plane. Their essence is returned and "reborn" into a new creature, sometimes of a much lower order. Only by slaying them on their home plane can you permanently destroy their "soul." But, that might have been system specific too and not applicable to Pathfinder. It might also only apply to creatures that actually gate to another plane vs. being summoned. The fact that the power to summon another creature of their kind is deactivated if they, themselves are summoned, seems to indicate the two modes of transport/existence have different parameters.

Conjuration wrote:

Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this.

It literally brings something to you. But, it does not unbind the creature from its home plane. In essence, a summoned celestial badger does come from another plane and you do command it. But, if it dies it does not die as it merely returns to its home plane. It is tethered to its plane.

If you were to Gate the same badger though, it would no longer be tethered to its plane and would be capable of actually dying.

This holds true with any outsider, such as demons and devils.

[Azothath]

The rules require interpretation as you are modelling something using english to describe a fantasy setting. We know the model isn't as accurate as newtonian physics, it is just descriptive. I like to say DnD is the imaginary game of "Let's Pretend" with rules that most people think is fair (DnD 3.5, CRB, etc).
So everything is valid so long as it fits the descriptive end result (which would be RAW). There are always going to be details where the description is inconsistent and/or obscure and that's where your friendly neighborhood GM comes into play. So there is always going to be some variance in which way those unclear details go as people have different skills, knowledge, and opinions. The same thing happens when you go into fine detail, the model just doesn't support that.

[nosig]

Stephen Ross wrote:

The rules require interpretation as you are modelling something using english to describe a fantasy setting. We know the model isn't as accurate as newtonian physics, it is just descriptive. I like to say DnD is the imaginary game of "Let's Pretend" with rules that most people think is fair (DnD 3.5, CRB, etc).

So everything is valid so long as it fits the descriptive end result (which would be RAW). There are always going to be details where the description is inconsistent and/or obscure and that's where your friendly neighborhood GM comes into play. So there is always going to be some variance in which way those unclear details go as people have different skills, knowledge, and opinions. The same thing happens when you go into fine detail, the model just doesn't support that.

and this is a bit problematic in PFS - where the guy running the table changes from session to session. It results in a bit of a Schizophrenic GM... and drives some of the Players crazy as well.

So some of us come here to the boards and discuss things - trying to remove some of the YMMV issues, and make our game a little more uniform with a little less Table Variation... You know, asking how we each run things, presenting our personal opinion and seeing how other people would run it.

Often it is not how we would do it in a home game, and that's fine. We give up a little of that unique independence for all the other advantages we get for being part of an Organized Play campaign.

[Azothath]

nosig wrote:

Stephen Ross wrote:

... (just some reality stuff).

and this is a bit problematic in PFS ...

yep.

I didn't want to sound too much like a downer. lol...

I think that's why the core answer to this question is to pick up some ranks in Linguistics which will also give you some languages.
Second is to summon only what you can communicate with in situations where you want to issue specific commands.

There are other methods (of course) but odds are it will be more difficult and YMMV.
I think the best tack if you do something complicated/questionable is to talk to your GM before the game starts. That way both know how things will work later in the game.

[Curaigh]

Tabletop Giant wrote:

If this is true, then this is what I would like to see:

Communication: The current rules regarding the limitation of commanding your creature based upon your ability to communicate with its specific language (in the case of 'intelligent' summoned creatures) or handle animal (for those less than intelligent beings) should be done away with entirely. The reason is this - it is not an actual being. It is a summoned thing of pure magic that you have instantiated into the universe, temporarily, to do your bidding, and it is absolutely subservient to you. Therefore, as a magical being who's temporary existence is completely bound to your will, it should obey your orders out of the box regardless of intelligence or language.

Summon Monster wrote:

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

I have always presumed designating your enemies as targets is a part of casting the spell. That is, the caster communicates (regardless of language): the dwarf with the red beard and the elf with the peacock feather and the dragon are enemies. Attacking is what a creature will do, but telling it to attack is also a part of casting the spell. Everything on the summon monster list has combat stats for a reason (tis a combat spell).

If lemmings were on the list, I suppose one could argue that they will 'follow' other lemmings instead of attacking or that a summoned canary would sing.

[Azothath]

A Wand of Share Language 1@1 Rng:touch, or Mindlink 1@1 Rng:touch from Occult Adventures could be very handy.

[Da Wander]

Stephen Ross wrote:

A Wand of Share Language 1@1 Rng:touch, or Mindlink 1@1 Rng:touch from Occult Adventures could be very handy.

just remember that many of the creatures summoned have the Celestial/Fiendish Templates and so are likely to have SR... and it takes a standard action for the creature to drop their SR for the round. (and wands of Share Language would be at 3rd Caster Level in PFS... not sure about the Mindlink)

[BigNorseWolf]

Linguistics is easily the fourth or 5th most common skill a pathfinder needs anyway....