Dual-Shield Fighter advice

[Silus]

Okay so I'm thinking of rolling up a dual-shield human fighter for Society, or at least an Adventure Path and I would like some advice. Most of the articles I've seen on the Paizo forums are pre-2013 and we've gotten quite a lot of content since then.

What I've sorted out thus far:

Minimum ability score requirements are 15 Dex and 13 Strength and a positive Con score. Taking the Shielded Fighter Archetype.

Feat breakdown would be as thus (up to ~lvl 8)
1st) Two Weapon Fighting (pre-req for TW-Defense), Improved Shield Bash (keep shield bonus while bashing and pre-req for Shield Slam), Shield Focus (+1 AC when using shield)
2nd) Two-Weapon Defense (+1 Shield Bonus when fighting with two weapons)(Not sure if applies to spiked shields. If not, replace with Missile Shield or Saving Shield)
3rd) Power Attack (More damage and pre-req for Improved Bull Rush)
4th) Weapon Specialization (Shield/Shield Spike)
5th) Improved Bull Rush (For use with Shield Slam next level, +2 on Bull Rush, no AoO from Bull Rush attempt)
6th) Shield Slam (Free bull rush with a bash attack)
7th) Greater Bull Rush (Enemy provokes AoO on successful Bull Rush)
8th) Combat Reflexes (Additional AoO, at least +2 AoOs from minimum Dex requirement)

By level 8 you're looking at:
+3 Damage from shield bash/shield spikes (Weap-Spec and Shield Fighter)
+1 to hit with Shield Bash (Shield Fighter)
+2 AC from Shields (Shield Focus + Two Weapon Defense) or +4 when fighting defensively (Active Defense)
+2 AoOs (Combat Reflexes)
+2 CMB on Bull Rush (Imp Bull Rush)

Order of combat operations would be: Shield Bash (1 attack) => Free Bull Rush => Greater Bull Rush AoO (Shield Bash)(AoO 1/3) => Free Bull Rush => Greater Bull Rush AoO (Shield Bash)(AoO 2/3) => Free Bull Rush => Greater Bull Rush AoO (Shield Bash)(AoO 3/3) => Free Bull Rush

Enchantments on the shields would be Bashing and Ramming with Defending on the Shield Spikes (+3 Armor Enchants on the shield/s and +2 on Weapon enchantments on the spikes):

Bashing

Spoiler:

A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability

Ramming

Spoiler:

These shields are sturdily built and often bear the device of a ram or bull. When the wielder of a ramming shield makes a shield bash attack as part of a charge, the shield's enhancement bonus to Armor Class applies to the attack and damage rolls. This doesn't stack with any existing enhancement the shield has. If the attack hits, as a swift action the wielder can attempt a bull rush combat maneuver against that target, adding the +2 bonus for charging and the shield's enhancement bonus to the combat maneuver check. Only shields that can make a shield bash attack can have the ramming ability.

Defending

Spoiler:

A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn. This ability can only be placed on melee weapons.

Anyway, thoughts?

Edit: Also, side-question somewhat related to shields, if you enchant Shield Spikes with the Transformative enchant (Spoilered below), 1) would it affect the whole shield, and 2) if it does affect the whole shield, could you turn the shields into, say, gauntlets?

Transformative (cost +10,000g)

Spoiler:

This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A transformative weapon alters its shape at its wielder's command, becoming any other melee weapon of the same general shape and handedness; the weapon's categorization as simple, martial, or exotic is irrelevant. For example, a Medium transformative longsword can take the shape of any other Medium one-handed melee weapon, such as a scimitar, flail, or trident, but not a Medium light or two-handed melee weapon (such as a Medium short sword or a Medium greatsword). It can even take the shape of comparable weapons of different size categories. For example, a Small greatsword is a two-handed slashing weapon for a Small character, but is a one-handed slashing weapon for a Medium character, which is very similar to a Medium longsword; a Small transformative greatsword can thus become an actual Medium longsword, usable by a Medium creature without the —2 penalty for using a weapon of the wrong size. The weapon retains all of its abilities , including enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities , except those prohibited by its current shape. For example, a keen transformative weapon functions normally in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon, but cannot use the keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon. When unattended, the weapon reverts to its true shape.

[Silus]

So I crunched some numbers and without taking into account enchantments beyond Bashing on Spiked Light Shields (1+ Bashing Spiked Light Shields), you're looking at x4 1d8 shield bashes and pushing an enemy back a good 20ft per round. Pick up Spiked Destroyer and you get a free attack with armor spikes on a successful Bull Rush or Overrun as a Swift Action (so a 1d6 attack).

Edit: Also, Dueling enchantment on Armor Spikes for more cheese.

[rungok]

I'm not sure about RaW, but I would say SHIELDFISTS FTW

[Silus]

rungok wrote:

I'm not sure about RaW, but I would say SHIELDFISTS FTW

"Oh look, he's not armed! Get him!"

SUDDENLY SPIKED SHIELDS

Edit: Now that I'm properly looking at enchantments and such I'm realizing how silly this could be. The main problem is lack of gold.

[Idle Champion]

If you get Shield Master (though that's Level 11), it's no more expensive than regular TWFing, because you'll have enhancement bonuses to armour counting to the weapon. Up till then... gold would be a problem.

I also don't think shield bonuses to AC stack - Two-Weapon Defence isn't necessary, and it may be that you aren't getting any shield bonus from your off-hand light shield on top of your main-hand heavy shield.

Transformative doesn't change the size or overall shape of a weapon, just changing it enough to count as a weapon sized for a different creature - Large longsword becomes Medium greatsword in the hands of a medium creature. So it would make a Large light shield behave like a Medium heavy shield. Not that helpful.

[Silus]

Idle Champion wrote:

If you get Shield Master (though that's Level 11), it's no more expensive than regular TWFing, because you'll have enhancement bonuses to armour counting to the weapon. Up till then... gold would be a problem.

I also don't think shield bonuses to AC stack - Two-Weapon Defence isn't necessary, and it may be that you aren't getting any shield bonus from your off-hand light shield on top of your main-hand heavy shield.

Transformative doesn't change the size or overall shape of a weapon, just changing it enough to count as a weapon sized for a different creature - Large longsword becomes Medium greatsword in the hands of a medium creature. So it would make a Large light shield behave like a Medium heavy shield. Not that helpful.

So swap out Two Weapon Defense for Missile Shield or Saving Shield?

[TGMaxMaxer]

You could do it with a Slayer to level 6. This gets you Shield Slam and Shield Master (with no pre-reqs). Then, Brawler or Shielded Fighter the rest of the way for feats. You lose 1 feat net, but get to skip pre-reqs (which puts you even) and get shield master 5 levels early.

At 2, you get a free bull rush on any shield bash (which doesn't provoke from the feat, so no need for Imp Bullrush since weapon bonuses are easier to get than CMB bonuses anyways), at 6, shield enhancements count as weapon enhancements. You also have a +2/+2 from Studied target that you can drop on to anyone as a move, or in the surprise round when you sneak or flank (2d6) as a immediate.

It negates the need for the ramming enchantment at all, since all shield bashes grant a FREE ACTION bull rush instead of a swift, and automatically add the shield bonus and charging +2 in, since the bull rush check is the total of the attack roll instead.

Pick up Spiked Armor and Spiked Destroyer feat, for a swift armor spike attack on a successful bull rush 1/round.

If you were to use Brawler Fighter, they get a +1/+3 version of weapon training at level 3, then strap on some Gloves of Dueling for +3/+5. They also get some bonuses to maneuvers, and later some lockdown ability in their threatened area.

Human: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8 (20pt buy)

Feats:
1: Slayer: 2WF; Imp Shield Bash (low level shield focus not really needed); Studied target +1/+1
2: Slayer: Shield Slam (slayer talent combat style)
3: Slayer: Power Attack; 1d6 sneak
4: Slayer: Intimidating Prowess (Str to Intimidate, see level 9)
5: Slayer: Imp Bull Rush; Studied Target +2/+2
6: Slayer: Shield Master (slayer talent combat style); +2d6 sneak
7: Brawler Fighter: Gr Bull Rush, Combat Reflexes
8: Brawler Fighter: Spiked Destroyer(armor spike attack on successful Bull Rush); +1 to bull rush, drag, reposition
9: Brawler Fighter: Killing Flourish(30ft demoralize when you kill an enemy) +1/+3 to shield attacks, +1/4 levels (+2/+2 with Gloves of Dueling).

You have 51 skill points (instead of 27) a good reflex save (meh). Still have full BAB and d10 HD. Should be able to get into flanking for the extra 2d6 damage regularly.

Assuming same money spent on shield (+3 shield with +2 weapon is 17k), got you a +1 Bashing shield that added +1 to ac from defending armor. Damage: d8+1, with +4 AC. Same cost (16k) +3 Bashing Shield does d8+3 with +5 AC.

For the cost of one feat: Shield Focus, (and 2W defense, which I don't think stacks when shields are already the weapon) I have made up the AC difference, and added it to hit and damage as well.

I have also provided an AoE intimidate to demoralize as a swift on a kill.

You can still take Weapon Focus and Spec, which I don't have in there, but already have made up (1 more damage actually) with the brawler training instead.

Studied target makes another +2/+2 you can do it as immediate if you sneak attack, so flank often. 15k gold Gloves of Dueling another +2/+2 (Shielded Fighter can't use them because of the wording of Weapon Training replacement ability, Brawler can since it gets the Close Weapon Group as it's replacement).

I'm playing this guy as a Dwarf in PFS already, and he's a BLAST. (I actually went slayer 2 fighter 3 slayer rest, so shield master at 9)
Especially old season 1 or 2 scenarios where they double the enemies in the same confined area for the higher level difficulty, it's like a pinball dominoe game when he gets going. I took the dwarf cleave feats so that they don't have to be adjacent, so I can hit/bull rush pretty much anyone who gets near me every round, and usually put them into a wall for prone cleanup by my allies.

[Idle Champion]

I'd say Saving Shield would outperform Missile Shield - your AC against an arrow is already strong with shields, armour, shield focus, sufficient DEX to TWF.

This is assuming that shield bonus follows the "multiple bonuses of same type don't stack" and TWD won't help.

[Silus]

For traits, thoughts on Snowstride and Shieldbearer?

Snowstride (Usually Under Cold Mountains)
The wide stance and sure footing you developed while traipsing over ice-covered rock and frozen earth keeps your feet right where you want them.

Benefit(s): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Acrobatics checks made on slippery surfaces and enables you to trip or bull rush opponents two size categories larger than you instead of just one.

---

Shield Bearer
You have survived many battles thanks to your skill with your shield.

Benefit When performing a shield bash, you deal 1 additional point of damage. Also, once per day on your turn as a free action, you may provide one adjacent ally a +2 trait bonus to his Armor Class. This bonus lasts for 1 round, so long as you and the target remain adjacent to one another. You can only use this ability if you are using a shield. You retain your shield bonus to your armor class when using this ability.

[TGMaxMaxer]

You also want the Shield Trained trait (I think) ... it's the one that makes Heavy Shields Light Weapons.

and Snowstride is the other one that you want, bull rush 2 sizes larger is key.

[Silus]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

You also want the Shield Trained trait (I think) ... it's the one that makes Heavy Shields Light Weapons.

and Snowstride is the other one that you want, bull rush 2 sizes larger is key.

Possible hiccup, Snowstride is from the Kobolds of Golarion book which does not seem to be under the Additional Resources page. So not sure if legal (You'd think they'd just say "nothing in this book is legal for PFS play" or something).

If indeed not legal, gonna need a suggestion on another trait.

Also, character's gonna be from Thuvia and worship Sarenrae and Pharasma. 'Cause undead can suck it.

[DM-DR]

I played a similar concept for Rise of the Runeloards (one of only two original characters that lived). Notes on the build I used:

• Play as halfling OR use halfling heritage as a human.
  
• Use the racial halfling feats for awesome fighting defensively/total defense antics.
  
• If you multiclass as Ranger (Freebooter Archeytpe worked great for me), you get shield master earlier.
  
• Bashing Shield is crazy fun when you get lucky.