Do characters know what kind of bonuses they are getting?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Just thinking - the rules on bonuses of the same type not stacking create a weird situation where the characters would know a rule mechanic.

For example, Fred the Fighter enjoys the music Bob the Bard produces. He seems to fight better when Bob plays his music. He also likes it when Chris the Cleric casts Bless. He fights better when Chris the Cleric blesses him. But for some reason, when Chris the Cleric blesses him, Bob the Bard's music doesn't affect him, and vice versa.

Mechanically, this happens because they both provide a morale bonus. In game, then, Fred the Fighter can make the connection that both the blessing and the music have the same kind of effect on his fighting skills, and that these effects don't stack. But others do, because when Chris casts Guidance instead of Bless, his next attack *does* do better even when Bob is playing music.

So, it seems reasonable to assume that characters in the game world know there are different kinds of effects. But do they know specifically which kind it is? Would an inexperienced adventurer know that Inspire Courage and Bless don't work together if they had never tried using them in conjunction before? Do different bonus types "feel" different?

Consider another situation. A succubus is working a scam on an adventuring party. She portrays herself differently using alter self, and is acting as a party patron. Instead, the party is actually serving her own ends. In this guise, she offers to instill them with some power - Profane Gift. Makes them stronger while serving her, gets a hook in them, and hurts them if they turn on her. Now, the bonus type the party gets is profane. Do they know they are getting a profane bonus when she does it?


I would say any character would know when they are under an effect, they would also know after the first exposure to multiple effects that the extra benefit didnt make them feel or perform any different. a learned character might be able to identify the profane, divine, enhancement etc. effects with knowledge skills to know the source of magical aids. Morale would probably be more of a gut feeling but easily backed up by "real world" experiences. For Profane Gift, i would think that is one of the primary reasons it exists, to trick someone into accepting it. i would play it as a character feels different about the gift depending on how many steps removed they are from the Succubus, and in any case they would feel a strong binding to the gifter.


I assume the caster knows what he's doing, including what type of bonus he's creating - is he influencing morale, or changing the circumstances, or infusing the target with holiness/profanity, etc.

Fred the fighter receiving the bonuses wouldn't know unless someone told him. To him, he just knows that Bob and Chris make him fight better. He might not even know that the music and the bless are not stacking. I mean, to a guy swinging a sword, hitting 5% more often and hitting 10% more often probably feels about the same. In fact, with the apparent randomness of combat, there might be times when he hits LESS often with both bonuses than the last time he fought with neither bonus.

What Fred really knows is that wen Bob or Chris do their thing, he feels better, more confident, ready to mow down all the enemies before him (morale bonus). If either one of them does it, or both, he feels about the same amount of confidence.

But when Chris uses Guidance, Fred doesn't feel more confident, but things just seem to work out better (circumstance bonus).

So yes, Fred feels different but lacks the Knowledge (Arcana) to know why without being told. And when both morale bonuses are in place, Fred feels the same as he does with only one morale bonus and probably has no actual idea if both are working or only just one - but if he's the scientific type, he might get Bob and Chris to join him for some extensive experimenting in a training yard and, over time, have a pretty good idea of just how much better he is.

Or one of them could just tell him.

As for the Succubus' profane bonus, I would imagine that most profane bonuses would feel somewhat icky, especially to recipients with "good" alignment. But that's just me; I don't think RAW has anything to say about that. On the other hand, I think many profane bonuses, especially like this one, are designed to lure "good" people into becoming evil and are therefore very deceptive. As such, I would play it as if they have no idea what kind of bonus they have. They might be able to figure it out with Knowledge checks, but without knowing the benefactor is a succubus, that should be pretty hard.

If they're really clever, some science might work. Anyone with Knowledge (Arcana) should know something about types of bonuses and stacking rules, so they could just start casting all kinds of bonuses to see what stacks and what doesn't. This could take a while - analyzing the results of each test means conducting a statistically viable large number of data points (Fred hits a LOT of training dummies while Bob and Chris record the data and calculate percentages). But eventually they might notice that casting a profane buff on Fred doesn't seem to change his odds, and from this can deduce a high probability that their benefactor used a profane bonus on them. None of which is RAW, actually, but rather just my assumptions.

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Derek Vande Brake wrote:
For example, Fred the Fighter enjoys the music Bob the Bard produces. He seems to fight better when Bob plays his music. He also likes it when Chris the Cleric casts Bless. He fights better when Chris the Cleric blesses him. But for some reason, when Chris the Cleric blesses him, Bob the Bard's music doesn't affect him, and vice versa.

Quick aside: They actually do stack, because the part of Inspire Courage that affects attack rolls is a competence bonus, not a morale bonus like bless.

On topic, the answer to what a bonus "feels like" probably depends a lot on the type of bonus.

A circumstance bonus is literally just a numerification (is that a word?) of having favorable circumstances. A morale bonus can, presumably, be felt emotionally. A competence bonus causes you to perform as though you were more skilled than you really are: your movements are more measured and precise, etc. An enhancement bonus takes some existing quality (like the integrity of armor or the sharpness/weight/balance of a blade) and makes it better, so it's just like "this is the good stuff... magically".

Sacred and profane are a little trickier... Not sure I can help you on those, sorry. :/


Jiggy wrote:
Quick aside: They actually do stack, because the part of Inspire Courage that affects attack rolls is a competence bonus, not a morale bonus like bless.

Huh. Good catch, I missed that.


This sounds like a classic use of Spellcraft to me.

I'm fairly confident that somewhere, in some tower, there's an aged, asthmatic and arthritic mystic theurge that has been quantifying and analyzing the combined effects of different spells and noticed which ones stack and which ones don't.

I'm also sure that somewhere in some musty library is a copy of Tentaculos' Terrific Taxonomy of Treasured Talent Tricks. Your bard may be familiar with it....


I suppose every bonus feels different - the insight bonus might feel like some part of you is calm, detached, and feeding you good advice in the middle of a battle. The morale bonus gives you confidence, and clears away doubts and anxieties. The profane bonus might feel like an exhilarating yet unsettling rush, the sacred bonus like a profound sense of serenity.

Fred the First-Level Fighter might not be able to tell what kind of help he's receiving, but he'd know he's being helped. Sebastian the Seventeenth-Level Fighter, on the other hand, would be accustomed to all sorts of bonuses and aware of their limits.


I'd say... Not necessarily. Sebastian is still not the sharpest knife in the drawer, has only 2+int skill points,... and understanding that magic stuff is the bard's job anyway.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
I'd say... Not necessarily. Sebastian is still not the sharpest knife in the drawer, has only 2+int skill points,... and understanding that magic stuff is the bard's job anyway.

You obviously haven't listened to an athlete talk about the intricacies of their sport. They may be failing math class, but for the thing they're good at they KNOW about it.

A 17th level fighter knows fighting, and he knows what kind of support he's getting even if generally he's not well-learned.


Don't sell Sebastian short - 2+int skill points doesn't mean "Not the sharpest knife in the draw" - it means "Advancing in their class requires much of their ability to train or study."

You know, like a Wizard.

Fighters know their fightering. If they took an Int of 8 because they don't care about skills, if they took an Int of 14 for a Combat Expertise-based CM build, whatever. They'd understand what their limits are under different conditions, including a range of bonuses.

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