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Hello and thank you all for reading this! My name is Benjamin Medrano, and I have one published adventure with Adventure-a-Week, Beauty & Blood. Due to personal circumstances, I have not been able to finish any other adventures for publication since.
However, I have been working on several other projects in my free time. In particular I have been working on three Base Classes, though one is actually an Alternate Class. In addition, in the last week I came up with the idea for a fourth class, which is also in the document.
I am asking the aid of anyone willing to look over, playtest these classes, and give feedback. I am not the most prolific poster and have a day job that takes much of my free time, but I will respond as I am able. Please give any responses that you may have, as any information helps.
The four classes are:
Arcane Knight - A prepared intelligence caster that uses the sword as a primary, with magic to boost his abilities. He can infuse his weapons and armor with magic, take talents to boost his martial and magical abilities further, and cast buffing spells of up to 4th level. He possesses a full Base Attack Bonus, and can cast spells in Medium armor without arcane spell failure, and may gain the ability to cast in heavy armor or with shields. Has a ranged archetype and spontaneous caster archetype.
Dragonsoul - The dragonsoul is an alternate class of the summoner. Proficient in martial weapons, the dragonsoul manifests their soul as a draconic ally, and is able to gain a large number of draconic abilities as they level. The dragon may be large to begin with, which permits for a dragonrider styled character.
Noble - The noble uses the aristocrat as a basis for the class, but also grants a large number of class features, most notably Noble's Knacks, minor abilities that can be used a large number of times per day for aiding allies, combat, and more. Each noble is the scion of a different type of family, such as arcane, commerce, faith, or the underworld. The type of noble they are influences their abilities, and can make one noble vastly different from another.
Priest - The priest is an alternate class of the cleric. Suffering arcane spell failure in armor, the priest gets additional slots for domain spells, and gains divine energy that may be used to power divine gifts they gain as they level. There are a small number of universal divine gifts, including the ability to take additional domains, and each domain has a minimum of 2 divine gifts unique to it. Most domains have three divine gifts, and many of the gifts can be augmented with additional energy for greater effects.
something that I found weird, the Noble only have 4+int mod skill points when it doesn't use intelligence anywhere and is not a caster. Especially for such a skill oriented class I feel 4+int mod is very constraining(8+int mod might even be in order).
Noble Scion is worded weirdly, it made it confusing on the first read. It should mention near the front that they must choose a type of object (such as cavaliers must choose an order), so instead of choosing what form you are, you should word it so that you must choose an object or a word that carries substance. such as Discipline or School or Study.
I enjoy the flavor of the class, but I feel it is too weak to constitute 3/4 BAB or a d8
the scion types are pretty weak and powerful at the same time, each feels like it has 1-2 good abilities, but the scion has no accuracy buffers(excluding 1-2 scion types) while several abilities that would want him in melee, while other types ignore combat altogether. I think these may be better off if they were like bloodlines in which they gain specific abilities at specific levels, as some abilities would never see use otherwise(i'm looking at you Mercantile Connections).
I really want to see this class work, but it's falling short in many areas and novaing in others(omg the scion of nature). This guy has abilities like Bard ones but are weaker, and the bard has 2/3 spell casting. this was all after an hour or so of reading the noble class.
something that I found weird, the Noble only have 4+int mod skill points when it doesn't use intelligence anywhere and is not a caster. Especially for such a skill oriented class I feel 4+int mod is very constraining(8+int mod might even be in order).
Noble Scion is worded weirdly, it made it confusing on the first read. It should mention near the front that they must choose a type of object (such as cavaliers must choose an order), so instead of choosing what form you are, you should word it so that you must choose an object or a word that carries substance. such as Discipline or School or Study.
I enjoy the flavor of the class, but I feel it is too weak to constitute 3/4 BAB or a d8
the scion types are pretty weak and powerful at the same time, each feels like it has 1-2 good abilities, but the scion has no accuracy buffers(excluding 1-2 scion types) while several abilities that would want him in melee, while other types ignore combat altogether. I think these may be better off if they were like bloodlines in which they gain specific abilities at specific levels, as some abilities would never see use otherwise(i'm looking at you Mercantile Connections).
I really want to see this class work, but it's falling short in many areas and novaing in others(omg the scion of nature). This guy has abilities like Bard ones but are weaker, and the bard has 2/3 spell casting. this was all after an hour or so of reading the noble class.
*adjusts wording of the Noble Scion ability slightly* Likely will take more than that, but a bit better, I think.
As for the skill points. I felt that it was best to keep it low initially, and then decide whether or not to raise it later (it was built off the Aristocrat, so I kept the Aristocrat's skills, by and large). This is effectively the 'first draft' of the document.
Let's see...what else...right. As for the Noble, the goal is that they can focus on combat if they want and be decent (Family Grace, Family Weapon, for instance), or that they can go support/face and be decent. Unfortunately, Scion of Commerce got the short end of the stick because, quite bluntly, I spent about two weeks beating my head against a brick wall trying to think of abilities that would work for it. Yet the idea of a 'noble' of a merchant family just make sense. Not saying you're wrong, there.
I'll definitely look at it, but not rushing to conclusions just yet.
1) So far, I only read the Arcane Knight. It feels a tad lacking. I think you should look to the bloodrager as a benchmark.
2) I don't understand why the class gets a spellbook at 1st level when they can't cast spells until 4th level.
3) There's a bit awkward issue with Arcane Strike and Arcane Training. Arcane Training is rather nebulous about what kind of ability it is. They're spells, but not really. The arcane knight can't use Arcane Strike because he technically can't cast spells until level 4. I'd fix all this by simply letting them cast cantrips at 1st level like a normal spellcaster. In addition, there would be a reason for them to have a spellbook before they can cast 1st level spells.
4) I think Infusion needs a rewrite. The ability's text is bloated and clunky. The first paragraph has ~100 words and yet the only important information is that it takes 1 hour to attune an item and you can attune a number of items per day equal to 1 + your Intelligence modifier.
I admit I mostly skimmed thru, but...nice work!
I don't have much need for the Arcane Knight or Dragonsoul, but they are decent.
The Priest looks pretty good as well, and I need one of those.
But, the Noble is the best I've ever seen in this department. I've tried myself a couple times, and seen many versions both fan made and published. They always seem to miss the mark. Yours is quite good. As observed by Bandw2, there is much variance in power of the Scion 'types'. But it has great promise.
My initial suggestions off the cuff: First, the name for the Scion type category could be Lineage. Although the 'Scion of' looks good as you read it, you could still call the class feature Lineage. In fact, you can call the feature Noble Scion, but when referring to the category choices, Lineage may be convenient.
Second, I applaud (and sympathize) with the effort for the Scion of Commerce. However, as you say, it doesn't have a lot going for it for adventure. I would either refocus it's abilities on negotiation and influence over others, or scrap it altogether. Make the abilities it currently has into Noble Talents and feats, and then any sort of Noble could emulate the commerce angle.
Lastly (for now), Nobles Knack doesn't ring quite right to me. How about Presence or even Noble Presence?
EDIT: One more possibility. You could rename the class to Scion, which would reduce the tendency of players to pigeonhole the class as landed nobility or super rich. Then rename the Noble Scion feature to Lineage.
1) So far, I only read the Arcane Knight. It feels a tad lacking. I think you should look to the bloodrager as a benchmark.
2) I don't understand why the class gets a spellbook at 1st level when they can't cast spells until 4th level.
3) There's a bit awkward issue with Arcane Strike and Arcane Training. Arcane Training is rather nebulous about what kind of ability it is. They're spells, but not really. The arcane knight can't use Arcane Strike because he technically can't cast spells until level 4. I'd fix all this by simply letting them cast cantrips at 1st level like a normal spellcaster. In addition, there would be a reason for them to have a spellbook before they can cast 1st level spells.
4) I think Infusion needs a rewrite. The ability's text is bloated and clunky. The first paragraph has ~100 words and yet the only important information is that it takes 1 hour to attune an item and you can attune a number of items per day equal to 1 + your Intelligence modifier.
Okay, replying point by point so I don't forget bits...
1) I'd actually managed to completely forget about the Bloodrager while writing the Arcane Knight, primarily because the concept of the bloodrager always bored me. I'll read through it and look over the Arcane Knight a bit.
2) Honest truth? I didn't want the spellbook to pop out of nowhere at level 4, and instead give the impression of the Arcane Knight researching and learning about magic from levels 1-3, which leads to #3...
3) Fair enough. I think it was a case of knowing how I wanted things to go before writing the class, and after I wrote things up, trying to keep it how I'd conceptualized it rather than adjusting the abilities to fit. While the actual class writeup isn't going to reflect the changes just yet, I'm figuring out how to put it in.
4) ...I just re-read it, and agreed. *rubs eyes* I don't need brain-bleach, but...yeah. That's getting fixed before the day is out. Thank you for pointing it out.
Thank you for the feedback, Cyrad.
*snips*
But, the Noble is the best I've ever seen in this department. I've tried myself a couple times, and seen many versions both fan made and published. They always seem to miss the mark. Yours is quite good. As observed by Bandw2, there is much variance in power of the Scion 'types'. But it has great promise.
My initial suggestions off the cuff: First, the name for the Scion type category could be Lineage. Although the 'Scion of' looks good as you read it, you could still call the class feature Lineage. In fact, you can call the feature Noble Scion, but when referring to the category choices, Lineage may be convenient.
Second, I applaud (and sympathize) with the effort for the Scion of Commerce. However, as you say, it doesn't have a lot going for it for adventure. I would either refocus it's abilities on negotiation and influence over others, or scrap it altogether. Make the abilities it currently has into Noble Talents and feats, and then any sort of Noble could emulate the commerce angle.
Lastly (for now), Nobles Knack doesn't ring quite right to me. How about Presence or even Noble Presence?
EDIT: One more possibility. You could rename the class to Scion, which would reduce the tendency of players to pigeonhole the class as landed nobility or super rich. Then rename the Noble Scion feature to Lineage.
*looks over, thinks about, starts sketching ideas* Ideas, I shall steal them! Not really, but...
So, I'm going to go with the name, Scion. That's just...perfect. This is part of why I wanted to post my stuff, seeing things from new angles. Lineage also works well, so I may be just naming the Scion abilities instead 'Arcane Lineage', for instance.
To reduce clutter, I'm tempted to remove the skill bonuses from the base Lineage descriptions, and making 'Scion's Knack' instead the skill bonuses they get, so that I can just state something along the lines of 'Stealth is added to Scion's Knack', and similar.
Which, of course, means I'll have to re-name Noble's Knack...which was mostly something I settled on out of no good options. Going to debate on Presence or the like.
And as for the Scion of Commerce...I hate to kill it, but...both of you may be right. *eyes it with fell intent*
stuff*adjusts wording of the Noble Scion ability slightly* Likely will take more than that, but a bit better, I think.
As for the skill points. I felt that it was best to keep it low initially, and then decide whether or not to raise it later (it was built off the Aristocrat, so I kept the Aristocrat's skills, by and large). This is effectively the 'first draft' of the document.
Let's see...what else...right. As for the Noble, the goal is that they can focus on combat if they want and be decent (Family Grace, Family Weapon, for instance), or that they can go support/face and be decent. Unfortunately, Scion of Commerce got the short end of the stick because, quite bluntly, I spent about two weeks beating my head against a brick wall trying to think of abilities that would work for it. Yet the idea of a 'noble' of a merchant family just make sense. Not saying you're wrong, there.
I'll definitely look at it, but not rushing to conclusions just yet.
hmm maybe instead of bonuses to knowledge checks and gather information, she/he gains an improved favors owed mechanic, borrow up to 50gp per level or some such? I like the commerce one, it definitely should use money as it's power. which means special access with money and special abilities to make money, maybe doubling the income generated from down time activities.
but yeah scion of nature's wild shape needs to be tones down.
Family weapon and grace seem nice, but not when you also have heavy armor proficiency, ultimately this class is a great 4 level dip for an oracle. Heavy armor proficiency should scream some priority on strength. Also, this appears to apply to ranged weapons allowing them stat to damage on ranged weapons is pretty powerful. I could see this class as a mini-gunslinger(low BAB is fine with guns, especially if you have the money to spare which a noble should), which might not be too bad of an idea for some additional content for the class.
but all in all, I think the class needs focus, should it do noble type stuff to be awesome at battle or should it be the face/support.(with maybe 1-2 scion types that swap it to the other) As it is, a lot of the classes qualities clash with each other. (heavy armor prof but not likely to be a melee combatant, very few ways to get bonus to-hit while having no spell casting and several abilities focus on combat)
moving forward i'd look at possibly the unchained rogue for terms of how powerful this class should be, and i see no SPECIFIC reason the class has only 3/4 BAB and d8 for HD, the rogue has sneak attack and scion abilities are disparate.
looking at it scion abilities seem to have about the same power as bloodlines or oracle mysteries, but you don't have much more than that and they have 9th level casting. because of the lack of spell casting the abilities should also be more active and less reactive or passive to give the noble more to do(a lot of abilities are already like this just mentioning it in general).
So, I'm going to go with the name, Scion. That's just...perfect. This is part of why I wanted to post my stuff, seeing things from new angles. Lineage also works well, so I may be just naming the Scion abilities instead 'Arcane Lineage', for instance.
yeah they definitely need an object name, classes are object oriented, they don't have types they have structures. they need a name like lineage or schooling something that makes it feel like a class feature. types are covered under archetypes linguistically.
Which, of course, means I'll have to re-name Noble's Knack...which was mostly something I settled on out of no good options. Going to debate on Presence or the like.
if panache wasn't already used by swashbuckler's it would be a great words to use.
brio also seems like a good word, but I hadn't heard it before I searched for synonyms for panache. Courtly Flair might also be a good name.
So, I'm going to go with the name, Scion. That's just...perfect. This is part of why I wanted to post my stuff, seeing things from new angles. Lineage also works well, so I may be just naming the Scion abilities instead 'Arcane Lineage', for instance.yeah they definitely need an object name, classes are object oriented, they don't have types they have structures. they need a name like lineage or schooling something that makes it feel like a class feature. types are covered under archetypes linguistically.
Which, of course, means I'll have to re-name Noble's Knack...which was mostly something I settled on out of no good options. Going to debate on Presence or the like.if panache wasn't already used by swashbuckler's it would be a great words to use.
brio also seems like a good word, but I hadn't heard it before I searched for synonyms for panache. Courtly Flair might also be a good name.
Okay, so here are a couple other possible names for the "knack pool": Bearing, Poise, and...wait for it...Gravitas. I like Presence, and Bearing, but Brio and Gravitas are in the same vein as Grit and Panache.
Gravitas is more seriousness and imposing, not sure it's tinged well considering it's actual definition.
I like bearing though.
...I have to say, that's the first time I can recall hearing the word Brio, aside from Brio Tuscan Grille. *considers the other options* None of them have the right...feel to me.
My wife just suggested Forte for it. Thoughts?
*re-reads Bestial Form* ...Okay, what was I smoking? That is...umm...blinks at self.
Okay, then. I'm tempted to change the cost to 3 uses of Noble's Knack/Forte/whatever for the shapechanging. Because...dear gods, I have no idea what I was doing when I wrote that.
Okay, then. I'm tempted to change the cost to 3 uses of Noble's Knack/Forte/whatever for the shapechanging. Because...dear gods, I have no idea what I was doing when I wrote that.
at 9th level that'd probably net 5 uses per day. (which isn't bad for no casting, but jesus this doesn't need to be your go-to wildshape card) maybe make it scale off of your level for an effective druid level.
edit: i just remembered these are also used for scion type abilities, yeah... change the name to something pool or something points, like grit points or arcane pool. shaves off the importance of a good name and makes people think more mechanically.
like highborn points or patrician points.
As a point of intent on the Noble, soon to be the Scion.
When I think of nobles in games, I don't think of them as the incredibly strong warriors, or the powerful mages. Those exist, don't get me wrong, but the way I predominantly see them depicted is as charismatic leaders, and usually wearing heavier armor because, in part, they were the only ones who could realistically afford that sort of armor.
That is in part the intent of the Noble. The noble is of a line where she's picked up tricks from her family (stealing wild shaping from druidic families, for instance). She may be somewhat more skilled in battle than others due to her presence and training (the way I see Family Weapon/Grace), but it doesn't define her. She leads into battle and inspires others, but in different ways than a bard does. The heavier armor allows her to more easily survive in the thick of combat. She can grant tactical feats to others. She can use solo tactics to decent effect. She can grant her Charisma bonus to saving throws of allies in the area. She can direct them in combat to greater effect. She can get a henchman 3 levels earlier than anyone else, someone who can simply boost her abilities due to tactics.
The Lineages were originally intended to be minor, but they ballooned. I freely admit they may have become more than I intended. It's possible that my intent got lost in the writing. So my question is...what do others see as the best way to achieve such for the Scion?
I'll note that my rough calculations were that at about 9th level, the noble could have approximately 18 uses in their pool (20 cha to begin, +2 from leveling, +6 from item gives 9 uses, plus 9 for levels) which gives 6 uses if I change Bestial Form to 3 uses. Mind, that's if that's all they use it for, and if they crack out Charisma like no one's business.
I think they ballooned well however. they seem class defining. I think however, as i said earlier you should make it so they behave like bloodlines with specific powers at various levels, or else they need to be like oracle mysteries with a ton of choices.
that way you can guarantee each Lineage acquires good family relevant leadership (druids could give morale bonuses to animals and animal companions or perhaps gain an animal companion instead of wildshape) abilities and give them good family related extra abilities.
edit: actually that might be a good constant theme, give every lineage some kind of cohort(except a few oddballs such as underworld and trade). Arcane gets a familiar, nature gets an animal companion, Battle gets a knight errant, such and such.
I'm considering how to do it...I'll admit, my most recent thought is leaning in the direction of gutting a lot of the current talent selection and replacing it with some other abilities. It's very, very likely at the moment that they'll lose their non-magical focus for the 'base' class, lineages aside.
*starts looking over idea list...* Yeah...I think that the Scion is about to get a fairly heavy rewrite. *winces* Still, will keep a fair amount of it's intent, most likely. Plus new 'aura' abilities. Welp, time to get writing.
I'm considering how to do it...I'll admit, my most recent thought is leaning in the direction of gutting a lot of the current talent selection and replacing it with some other abilities. It's very, very likely at the moment that they'll lose their non-magical focus for the 'base' class, lineages aside.
*starts looking over idea list...* Yeah...I think that the Scion is about to get a fairly heavy rewrite. *winces* Still, will keep a fair amount of it's intent, most likely. Plus new 'aura' abilities. Welp, time to get writing.
well as a programmer, i know sometimes it's best to abandon ship than go down with it.
Current plan: Make most of the current 'scion' abilities into talents that can be selected (power level may be adjusted). Some of the current talents are going to be moved to the different Heritages, add some new ones, tweak others. Add an 'aura' sort of like the Paladin's Aura of Courage for each Heritage that powers up every 4 levels beyond 3rd, when you get the initial ability.
As a point of intent on the Noble, soon to be the Scion.
When I think of nobles in games, I don't think of them as the incredibly strong warriors, or the powerful mages. Those exist, don't get me wrong, but the way I predominantly see them depicted is as charismatic leaders, and usually wearing heavier armor because, in part, they were the only ones who could realistically afford that sort of armor.
That is in part the intent of the Noble. The noble is of a line where she's picked up tricks from her family (stealing wild shaping from druidic families, for instance). She may be somewhat more skilled in battle than others due to her presence and training (the way I see Family Weapon/Grace), but it doesn't define her. She leads into battle and inspires others, but in different ways than a bard does. The heavier armor allows her to more easily survive in the thick of combat. She can grant tactical feats to others. She can use solo tactics to decent effect. She can grant her Charisma bonus to saving throws of allies in the area. She can direct them in combat to greater effect. She can get a henchman 3 levels earlier than anyone else, someone who can simply boost her abilities due to tactics.
The Lineages were originally intended to be minor, but they ballooned. I freely admit they may have become more than I intended. It's possible that my intent got lost in the writing. So my question is...what do others see as the best way to achieve such for the Scion?
I'll note that my rough calculations were that at about 9th level, the noble could have approximately 18 uses in their pool (20 cha to begin, +2 from leveling, +6 from item gives 9 uses, plus 9 for levels) which gives 6 uses if I change Bestial Form to 3 uses. Mind, that's if that's all they use it for, and if they crack out Charisma like no one's business.
Hopefully not too late for consideration; here is my advice.
I would try to build in a definitely non-magic focused core ability framework. I think the Teamwork feats and Leadership are the place to start. Then the Lineages can be less powerful/more flavorful enhancements to the class that point out the particular origin and focus of the character.
Aura is a cool idea, but can easily be either boring, or overpowerful if one is not careful.
The Inquisitor has a good start on the team leader stuff, but that class is a schizophrenic mess.
EDIT: Of course, people will say this is a Cavalier with less combat ability. Maybe hybridize Cavalier and Bard, but with no spells. Influence should really be the focus, but non-combat influence naturally takes a back seat to combat influence for adventurers.
After all, we're all murder-hobos at heart.
Gravitas is more seriousness and imposing, not sure it's tinged well considering it's actual definition.
I like bearing though.
That is true, I favor Bearing or Presence. What I am thinking is Knack sounds more like luck or skill. Whereas the Scion's abilities are all Charisma based and the flavor, as I see it, is one of force of personality and imposing ones will upon circumstance/people.
It is, in fact, much like Grit/Panache, but with more of a interactive, leadership focus. Thus Presence.
Hopefully not too late for consideration; here is my advice.
I would try to build in a definitely non-magic focused core ability framework. I think the Teamwork feats and Leadership are the place to start. Then the Lineages can be less powerful/more flavorful enhancements to the class that point out the particular origin and focus of the character.
Aura is a cool idea, but can easily be either boring, or overpowerful if one is not careful.
The Inquisitor has a good start on the team leader stuff, but that class is a schizophrenic mess.
Fortunately, that's what I'm focusing on. Each Heritage is granting a number of (potentially magical) talents that can be selected. Generally four or five. The core part of the class is entirely non-magical.
One thing I'm also focusing on is avoiding giving them a required 'pet', because I don't want to screw up the action economy more than the GM is willing to let a PC manage to begin with.
I'm going back and forth on Auras, too...the problem is, I have 4 spots in the level up progression I need to fill, so that's kinda what I'm leaning toward, there.
I decided on Forte because:
'Forte
1 - a thing at which someone excels.'
Hopefully not too late for consideration; here is my advice.
I would try to build in a definitely non-magic focused core ability framework. I think the Teamwork feats and Leadership are the place to start. Then the Lineages can be less powerful/more flavorful enhancements to the class that point out the particular origin and focus of the character.
Aura is a cool idea, but can easily be either boring, or overpowerful if one is not careful.
The Inquisitor has a good start on the team leader stuff, but that class is a schizophrenic mess.
Fortunately, that's what I'm focusing on. Each Heritage is granting a number of (potentially magical) talents that can be selected. Generally four or five. The core part of the class is entirely non-magical.
One thing I'm also focusing on is avoiding giving them a required 'pet', because I don't want to screw up the action economy more than the GM is willing to let a PC manage to begin with.
I'm going back and forth on Auras, too...the problem is, I have 4 spots in the level up progression I need to fill, so that's kinda what I'm leaning toward, there.
I decided on Forte because:
'Forte
1 - a thing at which someone excels.'
You might consider bonus feats for those slots. Perhaps a small feat list tied to each Lineage?
Already have the bonus feats in there, and am giving out 4 of them. If I filled those slots, I'd be giving out 8 bonus feats, plus you can use the talents to get a variety of bonus feats, so...I'd be giving more bonus feats than the fighter by a huge margin. I don't wanna do that, really.
*pauses* Crap, I already am, kind of. *sighs*
So I pondering your noble class and had an idea. Kind of crazy but bare with me.
1) Since it looks like you're already getting ready to re-work or re-do the Noble Scion ability, let the player choose what form of government the noble hails from. Each one allows the character to pursue the path of some other character class (in a broad sense at least), such as cleric, wizard, military, and something representing the skill monkey. The names of the government types would be named stuff like magocracy, theocracy, fuedal (?), etc. At 1st level, the choice determines what Noble's Knack abilities they get.
2) Move all of your noble talents to odd levels. I think your idea of moving the noble scion abilities here is a great idea.
3) At 4th level, the 1st level choices is fulfilled. The magocracy and theocracy guys get 4-level casting, while the military guy could start getting fighter-like abilities or some kind of a grit pool.
3) At 4th level, the 1st level choices is fulfilled. The magocracy and theocracy guys get 4-level casting, while the military guy could start getting fighter-like abilities or some kind of a grit pool.
don't mix magic with non magic.
I still say choice like mysteries isn't worth it unless you get the same number of abilities going on.
4-level casting isn't what 6- or 9-level casting is. It doesn't define the paladin or the ranger. The main features of this class seem to be point pool and the talents. Anyhow, just an idea.
I did originally consider something along those lines for the Arcane Scion or such, but I eventually decided against it.
On the other hand, I've completed my first draft of the re-write of the Noble into the Scion. I'm not going to put it up just yet, though...don't have enough new generic talents for my taste just yet, and I want to sleep on the new version before deciding one way or another. I rather...blitzkrieged it.
4-level casting isn't what 6- or 9-level casting is. It doesn't define the paladin or the ranger. The main features of this class seem to be point pool and the talents. Anyhow, just an idea.
no but it will still outclass anything else that isn't 1/2 casting.
I just put up the new version of the Noble, now known as the scion. However, the copy-pasting ended up screwing up the formatting, so I'm having to un-bold tons. If you happen to poke your heads in while I'm doing that...well, that's what's going on.
looked it over a bit, relying on talents feels... empty, it has a lot of toys now, but it's like a man covered in trinkets as opposed to someone in a full suit with accentuating jewelry. I don't really feel a core coming from the Scion.
looking at several abilities this class comes out with less features. for instance if you spent all your talents on sneak attack you'd end up with a few bardic performance abilities.
everything that IS there is fine, it just needs more to compete. the added core should be combat focused, as this is a Scion not an aristocrat, this is the Noble on an adventure, traveling the world, he can do with some combat oomph i think.
Give him some auras, Nobles love to stand around and do nothing.
I was going to start to respond, but I've had a rather crappy day (I work in a bakery, and National Donut Day was pure hell), so I'm going to just say that I'm going to think about what I can do. Still listening, just...not saying much ATM.
Just my two cents, in the sorcerer knight archetype, it only mentions switching the spellcasting over to charisma. Arcane talents and arcane pool are still drawn from intelligence. for arcane talents, this is relevant for arcane accuracy and magic barrier. Arcane pool and infusion are class features that would still rely on intelligence. Is this on purpose in order to limit the options a little bit?
Just my two cents, in the sorcerer knight archetype, it only mentions switching the spellcasting over to charisma. Arcane talents and arcane pool are still drawn from intelligence. for arcane talents, this is relevant for arcane accuracy and magic barrier. Arcane pool and infusion are class features that would still rely on intelligence. Is this on purpose in order to limit the options a little bit?
*headdesks* No, it wasn't intended to happen. I wrote up the Archetype in about half an hour at the request of a friend. I'll have to fix it.
it still says noble in the first few paragraphs. '3'
Sorry to anyone keeping an eye on this, I've been buried at work the last few days and haven't been able to get much done. For what it's worth, I'm working on a few new ideas for the scion, including one with set powers as you level up based on your Heritage. Hope to have that up by Thursday, but...we shall see.
Alright, yet another alteration to the Scion is up. *flops over*
Distracting Sale's Pitch (Ex): At 2nd level, the scion may distract an opponent with well chosen words and leave him open to attacks. By expending a use of her forte as a standard action, the scion may choose an opponent within 30 feet and make a Bluff or Diplomacy check, DC 10 + target creature's HD + creature's Sense Motive modifier. On success all allies who threaten the target may make an attack of opportunity against that creature. This is a language dependent, mind-affecting, sonic ability.
never has soliciting been so deadly, I would remove the sonic descriptor, any time it makes sense language dependent has it covered(such as being deaf).
like why are crystal creatures weak against your berating?
Distracting Sale's Pitch (Ex): At 2nd level, the scion may distract an opponent with well chosen words and leave him open to attacks. By expending a use of her forte as a standard action, the scion may choose an opponent within 30 feet and make a Bluff or Diplomacy check, DC 10 + target creature's HD + creature's Sense Motive modifier. On success all allies who threaten the target may make an attack of opportunity against that creature. This is a language dependent, mind-affecting, sonic ability.never has soliciting been so deadly, I would remove the sonic descriptor, any time it makes sense language dependent has it covered(such as being deaf).
like why are crystal creatures weak against your berating?
I agree. Also, I believe the DC should mimic Feint; 10 + HD + Wis mod or, if trained in Sense Motive, 10 + Sense Motive mod. Feint actually uses BAB, but HD is appropriate in the case of Sales Pitch. If it seems too easy then add half the Sense Motive; it's too much with both.
On second thought, this ability looks more like the Bard's Fascinate than Feint. Affecting multiple creatures and all, it might be better as a Will save. Believe me, I like what you're going for, but it's been proven time and again that skills and spell(like)s are not on the same page and are not very interchangeable. In this case, the save DC would be 10 + half Scion level + Cha mod.
I agree. Also, I believe the DC should mimic Feint; 10 + HD + Wis mod or, if trained in Sense Motive, 10 + Sense Motive mod. Feint actually uses BAB, but HD is appropriate in the case of Sales Pitch. If it seems too easy then add half the Sense Motive; it's too much with both.
On second thought, this ability looks more like the Bard's Fascinate than Feint. Affecting multiple creatures and all, it might be better as a Will save. Believe me, I like what you're going for, but it's been proven time and again that skills and spell(like)s are not on the same page and are not very interchangeable. In this case, the save DC would be 10 + half Scion level + Cha mod.
And, that's what I get for writing it up too quickly. Yeah, Feint was what was meaning to use as a basis, but I was in a bit of a hurry writing it. Fixing now...
Okay, adjusted a few abilities of the scion (too many if-then statements on Bladestorm. Removed an ability there).
I'm now working up changes for the Arcane Knight to make them more...interesting. Giving them cantrips at 1st level, giving them an arcane school that gives them some abilities like a wizard gets (they can also select from elemental schools) and a few other abilities, including giving the option of infusing their gear more quickly. Whee, writing!
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I had worried at first that you had completely scrapped the Commerce choice for the Noble/Scion, yet the Heritage of Commerce can be seen so that is goof.
I have also downloaded the current version but I wish I had seen your earlier version as it seemed to possibly be a more interesting direction for the Noble/Scion. Yet despite worrying I had missed out on an idea I may have liked more everything does look very good. Even the Scion looks good when scanning through it.
I especially like your priest, as an armourless servant of a deity that does not charge into battle as a warrior is nice to find. A support class is exactly what I want to see yet strangely has very little official support. Oh, do my eyes deceive? A way of getting more domains, even perhaps all the domains a deity provides? Very nice to see this... yet it would seem that the domain powers are not available. Hmm, still you provide an alternative so perhaps not so much a lose.
If you need it, I did actually save a copy of the original version (each 'major' revision is getting saved, just to be sure I can backtrack if needed).
And yes, the Priest can indeed get all of the domains of his deity. Especially since that opens up the divine gifts of the new domains. But yes...I did remove the base powers in part because of that. Though I could be convinced to return them for the domains the priest gets automatically, but not the additional domains.
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Any chance you could message me a copy of your original version of the noble?
From what I can see divine gifts work as an alternative, especially since most seem to agree a class would be too powerful in they gained all the powers of multiple domains. Two or three seem fine, but it seems many feel more then that is too much. I assume that was your concern was well, which is why you came up with divine gifts.
Any chance you could message me a copy of your original version of the noble?
From what I can see divine gifts work as an alternative, especially since most seem to agree a class would be too powerful in they gained all the powers of multiple domains. Two or three seem fine, but it seems many feel more then that is too much. I assume that was your concern was well, which is why you came up with divine gifts.
Sure! I just need an e-mail or such to send it to. (PM me with your preferred method.)
And yes, that was the reason why I didn't give them the original powers. I was trying to make divine gifts...impressive, for the most part. You can probably tell the ones where I was running out of ideas for them, though.
*ponders* Possibly a talent that would allow the priest to gain access to the specials of the domains? That would be...clunky, IMO, but possible.
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Yes I did notice some were lacking a bit. Hmm, if only you had someone with at least as much homebrewing experience to offer ideas or get advice. You have done quite impressively by yourself, though as the saying goes two heads can be better then one.
Have you considered taking the domain powers and tweaking them a bit into divine gifts? A talent or feat could be a consideration for allowing domain powers.
An option to get all the domains from the Priest's deity and their domain powers is to allow the Priest to choose what domains he gets for the day when he prepares his spells. this gives the versatility of choosing each day, but restricts the number of powers that he can use at any given time.
I've been following this thread for a bit. I even went and just completed my own version of an Arcane Knight. Running into the same naming problem we have with MCAs, not enough synonyms for an arcane knight type.
As to the current Arcane Knight version, I feel it is still lacking, especially with all those dead levels. the paladin and ranger, even with their 4th level spells, has no dead levels. Something could definitely be placed in the 5/9/13/17 level dead spots. Also, any way to add to the infusion ability to fill the 15th and 19th level dead levels?
I also agree with whoever it was that mentioned it (Ciaran Barnes?). The class needs a signature ability, which I think this is missing.
EDIT: So arcane pool powers the class's Arcane Talents. Great!
Infusion: How long does the attunement last? It doesn't say, or did I missed it? It appears to be little more than the arcane pool weapon enhancement feature mixed with the paladin's divine weapon bond. The max +10 it a bit high in the write up, unless there is a similar precedented ability in the official PF classes/archetypes. If the attunement lasts longer than 1 minute or 1 minute per level, then it could definitely fill the dead levels of 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th, but would max it out to +5 instead of +6. I'd say 1 hour or even 10 minutes per level, and only one item of each type at a time (1 weapon, 1 armor, or 1 shield).
END EDIT
As for the Priest, I need to take a look it. Read the brief synopsis, but haven't looked at the class yet. Was primarily interested in the Arcane Knight (of course :D).
Okay, one minute...it was a bit of a long day at work today, followed by a crazy tabletop game and other stuff.
Responding to things in order.
While allowing the priest to select their domains each day is a neat idea, I feel that the bookkeeping headache is...not the best, personally. Especially since choosing the domains is what gives them access to their divine gifts.
I totally agree on the dead levels, that's why I'm currently adding a number of abilities across the Arcane Knight's levels. It's currently in prototype, but I'm allowing Infusion to be used as a move and then a swift action at 7th and 11th level. I'm giving a new series of abilities at levels 7, 11, 15, and 19 (arcane augmentation, arcane resilience, greater arcane augmentation, and arcane body), all of which are abilities to boost physical abilities with your arcane pool.
Beyond that, to kill off dead levels I'm giving them an arcane school at 1st level. At levels 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17 they get 'school powers' that they can use to enhance their flavor. Showing the Universal below.
Hand of the Apprentice (Su): This ability functions as the universalist wizard ability.
Expanded Magic (Ex): At 5th level, the arcane knight gains an expanded list of magic to draw from. The arcane knight may choose a number of spells equal to his Intelligence bonus off of the bloodrager, bard, or sorcerer/wizard list. The arcane knight adds those spells to his spellbook as arcane knight spells of an equal level that he may cast. This does not allow other arcane knights to learn these spells.
Hand of the Adept (Su): At 9th level, the arcane knight's ability with hand of the apprentice expands. When the arcane knight makes a melee full attack action, she may make one of her attacks as if using hand of the apprentice. This uses the attack bonus of the attack chosen, modified by Intelligence instead of by Strength or Dexterity. The attack deals damage normally, and expends a use of hand of the apprentice.
Fluid Magic (Su): At 13th level, the arcane knight can quickly exchange spells for others. By expending a use of his arcane pool, the arcane knight may exchange a number of spells equal to his Intelligence bonus that he has prepared for different spells from his spellbook. This ability takes 1 minute per spell exchanged.
Hand of the Master (Su): At 17th level, the arcane knight masters wielding his weapon at a distance. When the arcane knight makes a melee full attack action, he may freely choose to have any of his attacks be made as though with hand of the apprentice. This uses a single use of hand of the apprentice.
Attunement lasts until you choose to end it by attuning more items.
And for the moment, that's enough for me.
@Priest: If divine gifts are so tied to domains, then yes, do not go the changing of domains route.
@Arcane Knight: I really like your idea of having the arcane school with more school powers, sort of like the bloodrager's bloodlines have more powers than the sorcerers. In fact, that's the route I had though about going with my "Arcane Knight" I'm building, but didn't want to come up with a whole bunch of new powers. Instead, I went the minimalist route, and gave them only the per day 1st level school power and the 6th/8th level school power.
I'll be interested to see all your schools and their expanded school powers.
If your attunement remains until you attune another item, them make sure you only allow one item of each type to be attuned at a time (1 weapon, 1 armor, 1 shield).