Alchemist race / accuracy

[DrakeRoberts]

I'm trying to decide on human vs wayang for an alchemist. I like the idea of the latter, but feats are tight. The bonus feat for human would be Precise Shot, but I've heard some claim this isn't a necessary feat for alchemists.

So Wayang would be +2 to hit over the human for targets that aren't in melee, but -2 to hit compared to the human for targets in melee. The Wayang gets some other advantages in areas of stealth, AC, and darkvision (and a couple of others), whereas the Human would have 30' speed.

I've not played an alchemist before, how bad off will I be without precise shot but getting the +2 to base hit bonus (size and dex)?

[mplindustries]

Not having Precise Shot early on totally sucks, but by mid game, it won't matter at all. Touch AC actually tends to go down on average as you level, even though your attack bonuses are going up. See, early on, you tend to fight smaller enemies (goblins, for example), which are smaller and more "dexy," so, the have better touch ACs. If memory serves me correctly, a level 1 Goblin has a Touch AC in the 14-15 range (not much different from their regular AC), while an ancient red dragon, I believe, has a Touch AC of 8 or so.

So, it's a tough answer. It's better in the long run, it seems, to be Wayang, but getting there is going to be rough if you're not human.

[DrakeRoberts]

So at what level do you think the turning point would be?

[StabbittyDoom]

High enough that, if your DM allows retraining, it would be worth it to train precise shot early then retrain it out when you realize you're hitting on a 2.

Though at SUPER late game it might be worth it again if the DM is fond of enemies with concealment as it is a prerequisite for Improved Precise Shot, which negates partial concealment. Unlikely to matter, though. By then you should have the volume of bombs to just plow through it and they still take splash damage.

PS: Great Wyrm Red dragon has a touch AC of 0. Yup, that's right, 0. Could be worse, though. Drop his dex by 5 and it'd be -3!

[DrakeRoberts]

Here are the feats (this is for PFS) that I was planning on taking, along with the discoveries I was looking at too (for a human). Is there something you would recommend I get rid of so that I could get precise shot on a wayang version of the character?

1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
2* Precise Bombs (From Grenadier)
2 Tanglefoot Bomb
3 Potion Glutton
4 Infusion
5 ED (Tumor Familiar) [Protector archetype]
6 Wings
7 ED (Frost Bomb)
8 Fast Bombs
9 Rapid Shot
10 Combine Extracts
11 ED (Force Bomb)

[RainyDayNinja]

I think you'll run into a lot of table variation regarding how Potion Glutton works with extracts. Personally, I wouldn't bother. Also, for my bomber alchemist, I skipped Rapid Shot and picked up boots of speed for when I want an extra bomb. I also didn't use Combine Extracts, because most of your buffs are 10 min/level or more, so you don't need a lot of in-combat drinking. On the other hand, you definitely want Confusion Bombs and Splash Weapon Mastery, so I'd squeeze that in somewhere.

Another thing to consider: Darkvision from your race isn't that important, because you can make that up with an extract fairly early on. Also, Wayangs have that Wis penalty on a class with bad Will saves. Picking a hedgehog for your Tumor Familiar helps, but you Will saves already need shoring up. So those are a couple more points in Human's favor.

Lastly, if this is for PFS, then minimizing collateral damage from missed bombs is probably more important than it would be in a home game. You don't want to be responsible for another character's death, because you chose not to get Precise Shot, when that character is played by a stranger at a convention and can't be replaced.

[DrakeRoberts]

I think it's fairly clear that Potion Glutton works to turn extract use into a move + swift action. Not drawing an AoO is useful for that too. If the feat is errata'd I can retrain it, I suppose. I'll need to look at the extracts I'm likely to use, though. If you're right in them being mostly longer term buffs, the Glutton may be of less use. I liked the idea of combine extracts more for buffs I hand out than for those for myself, but again, I'll certainly go look at the duration of those effects to see if your analysis will apply to things I'm likely to prep.

I'm not so sure about Confusion Bombs, but I really do like Splash Weapon Mastery a lot. My original (human) plan was to retrain precise shot to SWM if I started hitting a lot.

I am a big fan of your rapid shot suggestion, though. I wasn't a huge fan of taking that one, and felt more like I "should" just in case things ever got seriously messy. But other than where a PC death is a strong possibility, I try to shy away from using excessive power that makes the game less fun for all involved. The boots of speed would provide me exactly that emergency solution option without having it take up one of my precious feats for something I don't want to end up using often. I will almost certainly take this piece of advice regardless of how any of my extract-duration research and stuff works out.