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I am adding burrow speed, grab (on claw attack), and tremorsense to a group of skeletons. Skellies and PCs are all medium size. I read up on the various threads, and think these are the correct rules , but would like some help
1. burrowers have total concealment while underground. without tremorsense, PCs have no way of knowing where monsters are.
2. If burrower pops limbs only up from under PC and performs a claw attack(s), the PCs have concealment (50% miss chance).
3. Can they even do #2 without Earth Glide? Or would Earth Glide be a requirement for corporeal creatures?
4. while monster's limbs are out (after making attack) do any of the following apply that round:
4.a. monster has partial cover (+2 AC)
4.b. PC attacks considered higher ground (+1 attack)
4.c. if head not out then monster gets -4AC to attacks.
5 Can the skeleton's head and arms all be above ground if it is under the PC (or is that the same square?)
6. Using claw+grab, if skeleton has only arms up above the ground to grab PC, is that considered "normal" grapple per Grab rules, or "using part of it's body used to grab to hold the opponent" and thus -20 CMB? I don't think it's the 2nd, I think that is for creatures grabbing you with one limb that want to avoid gaining the grappled condition.
7. To pull a character under, after succeeding on the 50% miss, claw + grab to grapple on the 1st round, on 2nd round the monster only has to maintain grapple to move itself down 5' and the PC as well.
8. Since pulling a pc underground is probably considered hazardous, the PC would get a free check at +4 to break grapple. This check is made after the monster already rolled to maintain the grapple.
9. again, can a corporeal monster with burrow but not Earth Glide even do #6 and pull a PC underground?
10. If a monster climbs up to stand above ground, that is a move action that provokes an AOO.
thanks
1. The Perception skill has this on the chart: Sense a burrowing creature underneath you: DC 25. So anyone can notice something while it is burrowing with total concealment by making that Perception check.
2. Correct.
3. Yes, they can do it.
4a. I don't think it's listed for burrowing creatures, but the rule under Incorporeal states that remaining within an object (or the ground) and attacking out of it gives the attacker Cover. So your burrowing skeletons will miss 50% of their attacks but at least they get +2 AC. Note that this is NOT "partial cover"; it is "cover". Or they must emerge enough that they no longer get cover at all, but also no miss chance.
4b. Yes.
4c. I don't know where you're getting this. They already suffer 50% miss chance for Total Concealment and they have Tremorsense so they know the square where the PC is. I can't think of a reason for further penalty.
5. I would say that while the skeleton is mostly underground it occupies that square (the square below ground). If it leaves the ground enough that it no longer gets cover from the ground (less than half of the skeleton below ground) then it has entered the square above the ground. It cannot normally do this in the same square with an enemy (there are feats and other tricks if you want to do it). But it could be in an adjacent square and still attack the PC, and it can do so while it is mostly underground. See this:
U U U
U C U
U U U
That is a top down view of the battle. The P is the PC. Each U is an underground skeleton with only his arm sticking out. All 8 of them can attack the adjacent PC as long as those skeletons are Small or larger. You could put one more underground skeleton in the space under C so you could attack him 9 times.
6. That is a normal grapple. Because they have grab, they can make a claw attack and if it hits (50% miss chance might apply too), they get a free grapple attempt. If they are humanoid and only use one arm, they take a -4 penalty on their grapple checks.
7. This one is fuzzy. They have Burrow, not EarthGlide. That means they must literally dig through the dirt. That seems pretty hard to do while grappling, but the rules are silent on this, so I guess they can. But, it's not like they're dragging the PC through air or water. I'm pretty sure that the laws of physics say this is impossible to do - IRL you could dig a hole (e.g. a grave) and stand in it then get buried (take a breathing tube) with your hands out, I could lie down and you could grab me and pull as hard as you want, hard enough to crush my bones, but you won't pull me down into that freshly dug earth. Ever. But none of that is in the rules. I can't find anything that prevents a burrower (digger) from dragging a corporeal victim into the ground so it 's really up to you - do you want realism or do you want to entomb the PCs in an earthly grave (even if it seems physically impossible)? A middle ground might be to invent some magical power that they can "soften" the earth to drag a helpless victim below the surface. If you allow this, they can more more than 5', they can move half their movement speed.
8. Definitely.
9. See above.
10. I don't think so. They have a burrow speed. For them, climbing out of the ground is like you or me climbing up a staircase. It would not require a move action though you might make upward burrowing count as x2 like walking up a staircase does (though, actually, I think the rules don't support that either, so probably just normal movement). Normal movement provokes, but if it's normal movement (not difficult terrain) they should also be able to take a 5'Step up to the surface if they were already in the adjacent below-ground space.
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#1 thanks i missed that
4.c. I wrote this poorly. I was wondering: if they couldn't see the PCs attacking them, are they effectively blind but with blindsense (actually tremorsense in this case) but I guess that's making it too complicated. The cover rules for incorporeal are good enough I think.
#6 for this i was thinking they would not have the 50% again for the grab, since the claw attack would mean they are already touching.
#7, I know people have done this (while reading other threads), but i agree it sounds weird. I can see holding on to the PC with one hand and digging with the other, but that sounds like swimming, which sounds like Earth Glide. So I think it probably is too difficult for a burrower. (Maybe if they were Large or greater there'd be an argument)
Really i don't want to kill off all the PCs anyway, just scare them with something they are not used to, so maybe just hindering them with grapples is good enough while other skeletons attack them.
Thanks. that all makes sense.
#6 for this i was thinking they would not have the 50% again for the grab, since the claw attack would mean they are already touching.
I think you misunderstood (or I miscommunicated).
The only miss chance is on the attack. Not on the grab.
I thought of a fun way to interpret it to be scary and hindering without deadly: when a PC is standing and he gets grappled, on the following turn allow the skeleton do drag him down just knee-deep. Now he's stuck. On future rounds, allow this to give a +4 circumstance to the skeleton to maintain the grapple and the PC is unable to move, even if the skeleton lets go.
The PC would need to break the grapple AND break free of the ground to get back onto his own feet.
To make it more interesting, each round the skeleton maintains the grapple, let the PC sink another foot or so deeper - but probably not ever past his shoulders (don't want to drown them in dirt).
None of that is RAW, but heck, many new monsters come with new abilities that aren't yet in the book, why not make a skeleton who can do this?