Forgetting Your Child


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Fatal Distraction: Forgetting a Child in the Backseat of a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime?

This is one of the most affecting articles I've read in years, and I do not say that lightly. It won't surprise* most here to learn that I don't have kids. My personal experience in this is quite minimal, and my thoughts on this sort of mistake were very negative until I really began to read. I have ADHD. I forgot my passport on the plane once. On the flight back I forgot my phone. In the most rational way, this article absolutely terrifies me.

It's a tough article to sit through, mostly because of the subject matter, but I highly suggest you set aside some time for it. We so easily assume this could never happen to us. We don't think about what lies behind such tragedy, and how perfectly human it truly is.

*(and will relieve)


man's already suffered enough.


I think it's more a sign of how society forces us to be constantly on the move, forgetting important things in the process. Sometimes it's the bus ticket, your trousers or your 9-month old child. As the article states, it happens to people of all social classes and it's not really that rare (or as rare as it should be).

Maybe the most difficult thing is separating the tragic mistakes from those (if they exist) forgetting their child on purpose. But I think it shouldn't be handled as a crime. It's a tragedy, yes, but not so much as beating or starving your 9-year old child to death. That's more of a crime, in my opinion.

Sovereign Court

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This has happened enough times in the Memphis area there is a community program encoraging parents to leave a teddy bear in their front seat whenever they have a child in the back seat so there is a visual clue.


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If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f#++ the selfish piece of shit.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)


Ceres Cato wrote:

I think it's more a sign of how society forces us to be constantly on the move, forgetting important things in the process. Sometimes it's the bus ticket, your trousers or your 9-month old child. As the article states, it happens to people of all social classes and it's not really that rare (or as rare as it should be).

Maybe the most difficult thing is separating the tragic mistakes from those (if they exist) forgetting their child on purpose. But I think it shouldn't be handled as a crime. It's a tragedy, yes, but not so much as beating or starving your 9-year old child to death. That's more of a crime, in my opinion.

The article says 15-25 times a year. That's well under 1 in a million children. Not at all would be better of course, but it's a long ways down on the list of things to worry about. Somewhere near "Struck by lightning".

So rare that it's hard to work on solving it. People don't think they need to worry about ways to avoid it, since they'd never do that. And they're pretty much right.

Apparently this used to happen less often, partly because we've moved to rear facing back seat child seats - less visibility. Of course we did that for safety reasons and moving back would actually increase risks.

We probably should standardize legal treatment of these kinds of cases, rather than basing them off of existing negligence law, which is what seems to be happening and which leaves lots of room for interpretation. Investigation and only prosecute if there's other evidence of neglect or abuse?


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It happens. Kids also get left in stores. A lot more parents do it than will ever admit to it. To answer the question it can be a crime if it leads to the child being harmed. It should most definitely not be a recurring event.


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captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f&@+ the selfish piece of s**%.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

So, when you suddenly become overwhelmed by other circumstances, what should you do with the children you already have?

This happens. It happens very, very rarely and it seems to happen to people nearly randomly. Stress and distraction in the moment seem to be the triggers. Should you only have children if you can guarantee that for the first (5? 6? more?) years of their lives you will never be busy or stressed or distracted?
That means no one would ever have children again.


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captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f$*& the selfish piece of s*!@.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I don't have children (thankfully) because I know I would probably forget them the minute I turn around and don't see them anymore. But I guess we have some problems in our society.

First: Most people don't have time and money for a child. But they feel obligated to have them nonetheless, because "society and such". I can't remember for the life of me how many times I had a discussion with my father about how I don't fulfill my duties for society (not taking into account that I neither have the time or money for a child).
Second: This leads to people having children they don't really have the time for. Because work and life gets to tend to get in the way and without at least the former you can't feed the child.
Third: If you spend most of your life working and caring for your child, you get stressed, sloppy and the probability of neglecting your child in one way or the other rises.

Granted, many parents out there don't have those problems (lucky them) and even like their children (luckier them). But, as the article states, stuff like that can happen, and it can happen (in princible at least) to everyone. It has nothing to do with selfishness or "causually forgetting". That's way too easy.


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Ceres Cato wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f$*& the selfish piece of s*!@.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I don't have children (thankfully) because I know I would probably forget them the minute I turn around and don't see them anymore. But I guess we have some problems in our society.

First: Most people don't have time and money for a child. But they feel obligated to have them nonetheless, because "society and such". I can't remember for the life of me how many times I had a discussion with my father about how I don't fulfill my duties for society (not taking into account that I neither have the time or money for a child).
Second: This leads to people having children they don't really have the time for. Because work and life gets to tend in the way and without at least the former you can't feed the child.
Third: If you spend most of your life working and caring for your child, you get stressed, sloppy and the probability of neglecting your child in one way or the other rises.

Granted, many parents out there don't have those problems (lucky them) and even like their children (luckier them). But, as the article states, stuff like that can happen, and it can happen (in princible at least) to everyone). It has nothing to do with selfishness or "causually forgetting". That's way too easy.

People have always had children they didn't really have the time or money for. Many people actually desperately want children, not just out of duty to society or some such.

And I think, at least as far as this problem goes, you're conflating things that don't really link up. Forgetting the kid in the car seems to be more linked to particular busy/stressed/distracted days than to overall "too busy for a child".


no excuse for it, lock them up:-)

And no calling it selfishness isn't "too easy" as you say, its obviously the truth, if they'd thought of the child at any point this wouldn't have happened:-)


@thejeff: I didn't say that my words apply to everyone. On the contrary. I actually know people who have children because they really, really wanted them. But as you yourself said one post earlier, sometimes stress and distraction get in the way and those things can happen to everyone, at any time. I only stated some factors that up the probability.

Besides that, there are also people who later wished they would never have decided to have a child. In a world where people someties have to take on to jobs to feed their family, juggling family, work and your own life (which basically flies out of the window) tends to get stressful real fast.

And if you decide (as a woman, that is) not to have a child... Well, have fun with all those mothers letting you know what a shabby little parasite to society you are for not giving back. Or if you have a child but decide to give it to the hands of a nurse because you have to, well, work (then you're a bad mother, as well, because you neglect your precious bonding time). Okay, the last part might be because Germany (where I live) can be such a backwater place when it comes to having a child and working at the same time.


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captain yesterday wrote:

no excuse for it, lock them up:-)

And no calling it selfishness isn't "too easy" as you say, its obviously the truth, if they'd thought of the child at any point this wouldn't have happened:-)

"If they'd thought of the child".

Forgetting something isn't selfishness, it's forgetting. When they thought of the child, they thought they'd left the kid at daycare or with the babysitter.

Quote:
The babysitter asked Balfour where Bryce was. Balfour said: “What do you mean? He’s with you.”

Read the article if you're going to comment more, please.

Liberty's Edge

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I’ve never forgotten my children anywhere, car, shop, park—you name it.

Nonetheless, when the first one was an infant she would often fall asleep in her carseat and the sudden, blessed quiet would allow me to momentarily (fractionally, mind you, we’re talking something like seconds here) forget about her.

I can recall any number of times, once this vehicle-motion-induced serenity had ensued, remarking to my wife that we should eat at such-and-such restaurant for dinner, or go shopping at so-and-so’s store, only to be gently reminded that the baby made that too problematic—in those moments, after I would sigh out a resigned, “Oh, yeah…” with the slightest click of my tongue as I self-admonished, I realized I had actually forgotten about the small and absolutely helpless being strapped in behind me.

On any occasion, and with absolutely no hyperbole, I can tell you I would have scooped out my own eyes with a rusty spoon rather than see any harm come to her. Even still I can’t deny the wretched and dissonant fact that while she was always on my mind, sometimes she wasn’t.

As to memory and anyone’s ability to multitask and organize, I can recall any number of times, after weeks of three-to-four hour’s sleep a night and a full time job on top, when I changed the baby’s diaper twice because I forgot I had just done it, or warmed two bottles of milk because the first one was inexplicably set down in the cabinet with the glasses, or placed in the freezer, or sat at the foot of her crib, only to be discovered hours later.

Rather than recriminate and decry the tragically unfortunate parents for whom a second’s memory lapse turned into an hour or a day, for whom the daily, incessant routine built a false room in that ephemeral memory palace we all roam, I weep for them and their loss.

There is literally nothing anyone can do to these parents to cause them greater agony or sorrow; their pain is already permanent and thorough.


But if they can be incarcerated for ages, the prison interests stand to make a LOT of money off them. We're talking JOB OPPORTUNITIES here, people!


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If a person's negligence leads to the death of a child, and there are laws that govern this, then they should be followed.

I can't imagine a person's spouse being all "s**t happens" about their partner killing their child, accident or no.


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Kryzbyn wrote:

If a person's negligence leads to the death of a child, and there are laws that govern this, then they should be followed.

I can't imagine a person's spouse being all "s**t happens" about their partner killing their child, accident or no.

Obviously the spouse isn't going to be all "s**t happens". But that applies to all sorts of accidents that we don't punish people for.

The laws should of course be followed, but it's not always entirely clear what laws apply and how to do so.

The question is more "What should the law be?"

Does this person actually need to be punished more than they're already suffering from not only losing their child, but being responsible for it.
Along with a dose of "Is taking this person away from the rest of the family actually good for them?"


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captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f**+ the selfish piece of s%+&.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I can't thumbs-up this enough.

When our first child was born, I was working 60-80 hours a week, and on the road 25-50% of the time. Yet I never. Once. Forgot where my child was. Even in some random time zone in the middle of a winter wilderness, I'd call home every few hours to ask, "How is Impus Major doing? Where is he? Who's taking care of him?"

Maybe it's because I'm obsessive-compulsive. Maybe it's because in real life I'd qualify to be a paladin of Erastil.

But the concept of forgetting my child to the point that they perish is so abhorrent to me that I consider such parents unworthy of having children at all.

I feel the much better question is, "What do we do about such irresponsible parents?"

I've already been beaten down on other threads for suggesting such things, but "sterilization is always an option".

Jailing such parents is a waste of society's limited resources. They already feel horrible about what has happened, so there is no punishment they will endure that is worse that what has already happened to them.

*IF* you mandate a punishment, it should be sterilization. Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I would leave them alone. They have to live with the guilt of what they've done for the rest of their lives. That alone is punishment enough.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

If a person's negligence leads to the death of a child, and there are laws that govern this, then they should be followed.

I can't imagine a person's spouse being all "s**t happens" about their partner killing their child, accident or no.

Obviously the spouse isn't going to be all "s**t happens". But that applies to all sorts of accidents that we don't punish people for.

The laws should of course be followed, but it's not always entirely clear what laws apply and how to do so.

The question is more "What should the law be?"

Does this person actually need to be punished more than they're already suffering from not only losing their child, but being responsible for it.
Along with a dose of "Is taking this person away from the rest of the family actually good for them?"

Is it only this one circumstance a person has been "punished enough", or does that extend to all circumstances in where parental derp would lead to the death of their child?

What if they had left their dog in the car and it expired? Is the person still "punished enough" for having been negligent with its life?


Kryzbyn wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

If a person's negligence leads to the death of a child, and there are laws that govern this, then they should be followed.

I can't imagine a person's spouse being all "s**t happens" about their partner killing their child, accident or no.

Obviously the spouse isn't going to be all "s**t happens". But that applies to all sorts of accidents that we don't punish people for.

The laws should of course be followed, but it's not always entirely clear what laws apply and how to do so.

The question is more "What should the law be?"

Does this person actually need to be punished more than they're already suffering from not only losing their child, but being responsible for it.
Along with a dose of "Is taking this person away from the rest of the family actually good for them?"

Is it only this one circumstance a person has been "punished enough", or does that extend to all circumstances in where parental derp would lead to the death of their child?

What if they had left their dog in the car and it expired? Is the person still "punished enough" for having been negligent with its life?

Fantastic question.

I have a very odd response. When animals are concerned, the person forfeits the right to own animals. When humans are concerned, the person gets a "second chance".

Why? Probably because I'm an optimist. If someone's so hopelessly distracted that they kill their own offspring, I would hope that it would be "lesson learned" and would never happen again. On the other hand, I've seen far too many people with the attitude, "Oh, the pound is always full of new animals," so they don't even blink at accidentally killing their pet.

Obviously, other people's experiences may differ wildly.


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NobodysHome wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f**+ the selfish piece of s%+&.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I can't thumbs-up this enough.

When our first child was born, I was working 60-80 hours a week, and on the road 25-50% of the time. Yet I never. Once. Forgot where my child was. Even in some random time zone in the middle of a winter wilderness, I'd call home every few hours to ask, "How is Impus Major doing? Where is he? Who's taking care of him?"

Maybe it's because I'm obsessive-compulsive. Maybe it's because in real life I'd qualify to be a paladin of Erastil.

But the concept of forgetting my child to the point that they perish is so abhorrent to me that I consider such parents unworthy of having children at all.

I suspect most of the parents who have done such things would have said similar things before it happened. Some more, some less. And that's probably not linked closely to the chances of this happening.

Liberty's Edge

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I find the microcosm of what the article discusses fascinating. The dehumanisation of the parents, the cries of 'I would never do that', the cries for punishment...

If you have not read the article, you should not comment.


NobodysHome wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

If a person's negligence leads to the death of a child, and there are laws that govern this, then they should be followed.

I can't imagine a person's spouse being all "s**t happens" about their partner killing their child, accident or no.

Obviously the spouse isn't going to be all "s**t happens". But that applies to all sorts of accidents that we don't punish people for.

The laws should of course be followed, but it's not always entirely clear what laws apply and how to do so.

The question is more "What should the law be?"

Does this person actually need to be punished more than they're already suffering from not only losing their child, but being responsible for it.
Along with a dose of "Is taking this person away from the rest of the family actually good for them?"

Is it only this one circumstance a person has been "punished enough", or does that extend to all circumstances in where parental derp would lead to the death of their child?

What if they had left their dog in the car and it expired? Is the person still "punished enough" for having been negligent with its life?

Fantastic question.

I have a very odd response. When animals are concerned, the person forfeits the right to own animals. When humans are concerned, the person gets a "second chance".

Why? Probably because I'm an optimist. If someone's so hopelessly distracted that they kill their own offspring, I would hope that it would be "lesson learned" and would never happen again. On the other hand, I've seen far too many people with the attitude, "Oh, the pound is always full of new animals," so they don't even blink at accidentally killing their pet.

Obviously, other people's experiences may differ wildly.

To be honest - 15-25 cases a year. Less than 1 in a million kids. Barring cases where there's other evidence of neglect or even intent, it's not going to happen to the same person again, even if they don't learn the lesson.


thejeff wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f**+ the selfish piece of s%+&.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I can't thumbs-up this enough.

When our first child was born, I was working 60-80 hours a week, and on the road 25-50% of the time. Yet I never. Once. Forgot where my child was. Even in some random time zone in the middle of a winter wilderness, I'd call home every few hours to ask, "How is Impus Major doing? Where is he? Who's taking care of him?"

Maybe it's because I'm obsessive-compulsive. Maybe it's because in real life I'd qualify to be a paladin of Erastil.

But the concept of forgetting my child to the point that they perish is so abhorrent to me that I consider such parents unworthy of having children at all.

I suspect most of the parents who have done such things would have said similar things before it happened. Some more, some less. And that's probably not linked closely to the chances of this happening.

Most of the time I agree with you, but in this case I'm going to remain ornery. Being a parent and being very active in the local school community I see dozens of parents. There are a handful that think nothing of leaving their kid in the car with the engine running while they "just go do something quick". The vast majority would *never* leave their child alone in the car, even for an instant, and go through the rigors of getting their child out, turning off the car, locking the car, and carrying the child with them. Every. Single. Time.

In short, I see parents who think very little of leaving their kids alone "for a moment", and they are few and far between compared to parents who consider their kids their #1 responsibility.

So while I agree with your statement (those that it happened to will SAY similar things), I've seen a dichotomy of behavior that cannot be argued against.

EDIT: For fair disclosure, I am borderline obsessive-compulsive. So the statement, "I have a 14-year-old and an 11-year-old and I never once left them alone in the car until they had demonstrated the ability to get out of the car on their own," is not (in my opinion) a fair comparison, as I know I'm psychotic about such things. It's more that I've seen two types of general parental behavior: "It's only a few minutes, my kid'll be fine", vs. "I should NEVER leave my child alone, even for an instant."

I've been fortunate enough never to have personal experience with a child coming to harm from being left alone in a car. My anecdotal evidence from other parents is that it's the former type of parent that tends to forget their kids in the car. Fortunately, with minimal impact for the parents I know.

Liberty's Edge

This man's life is ruined. Sending him to prison would just be salt in the wound.


NobodysHome wrote:
thejeff wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f**+ the selfish piece of s%+&.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I can't thumbs-up this enough.

When our first child was born, I was working 60-80 hours a week, and on the road 25-50% of the time. Yet I never. Once. Forgot where my child was. Even in some random time zone in the middle of a winter wilderness, I'd call home every few hours to ask, "How is Impus Major doing? Where is he? Who's taking care of him?"

Maybe it's because I'm obsessive-compulsive. Maybe it's because in real life I'd qualify to be a paladin of Erastil.

But the concept of forgetting my child to the point that they perish is so abhorrent to me that I consider such parents unworthy of having children at all.

I suspect most of the parents who have done such things would have said similar things before it happened. Some more, some less. And that's probably not linked closely to the chances of this happening.

Most of the time I agree with you, but in this case I'm going to remain ornery. Being a parent and being very active in the local school community I see dozens of parents. There are a handful that think nothing of leaving their kid in the car with the engine running while they "just go do something quick". The vast majority would *never* leave their child alone in the car, even for an instant, and go through the rigors of getting their child out, turning off the car, locking the car, and carrying the child with them. Every. Single. Time.

In short, I see parents who think very little of leaving their kids alone "for a moment", and they are few and far between compared to parents who...

But these disastrous cases aren't "He'll be fine for a minute". They're "Of course I dropped him off with you this morning. Why are you calling to ask me where he is?"

It's a completely different thing. Maybe there's a correlation with the behavior you're describing, but I haven't seen any evidence of it.


thejeff wrote:

But these disastrous cases aren't "He'll be fine for a minute". They're "Of course I dropped him off with you this morning. Why are you calling to ask me where he is?"

It's a completely different thing. Maybe there's a correlation with the behavior you're describing, but I haven't seen any evidence of it.

Absolutely fair. My personal opinion/limited experience is that it's the "leave him alone" parents that also fall into the, "Of course I dropped him off with you this morning..." category.

Being fortunate enough to have never seen a child harmed in this way, and only having seen it happen a couple of times with parents I know, I certainly can't claim that my "evidence" constitutes anything more than one man's ramblings.

Off the top of my head, I've seen "oops my kid is missing" moments 5 times in 14 years. 3 of those 5 times were, "I picked up someone else's kid when I wasn't supposed to," so it stemmed from "excess coverage". We actually created quite the situation at school when my wife showed up to pick up Impus Minor, only to find him missing. She had the police on campus within 10 minutes. Let me say, the parent who picked him up without our permission was... distressed... when the police showed up on her doorstep asking as to the whereabouts of our son...

So my entire experience is twice. In 14 years. Completely statistically insignificant. *But* both of those times involved "he'll be OK if I'm only gone for a minute" parents. Leading to natural human bias on my part.

Last time I checked I was remotely human...


By the way: It's not only that the parent in question would make themselves their life hell on earth until for ever, it's also the social stigma adding.
I guess the people in the parent's neighbourhood would add to the personal hell immensely.


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As a parent of two small children (one is 2 weeks old, the other 3 years old), this article made my hands start shaking. I am the classic ADHD hyperactive single track minded type of person that could potentially forget my child/children in my truck on accident.

In fact, I've forgotten to drop off my daughter once at daycare and drove nearly all the way to work with her in the vehicle, however she was two and I heard her talking in the backseat. I'll never forget what I felt when I realized what could have happened. I'm not normally an anxious person, but I couldn't go in to work that day. I still have pretty dark thoughts sometimes about what could have happened.

It's why I usually insist that my wife drop my daughter off at daycare still...and this is almost two years later.

Does this mean I am a bad parent? I don't think so. I love my kids. I'd bet every single parent in that article would tell you the same.


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What is the purpose of throwing someone in jail?

Punishment- Would be like pouring a soda into the ocean at this point.

Prevention- Do you think parents aren't already doing everything they're going to to prevent this?

Rehabilitation- not that this actually works, but even in theory he's not a bad person who took a deliberate act, he made a mistake.

Warning to others- The news already does this.

If there's a solution to this its some sort of a motion sensor in the back or a carseat that calls your cell phone when the cars off but the kids in there.


GM Niles wrote:

As a parent of two small children (one is 2 weeks old, the other 3 years old), this article made my hands start shaking. I am the classic ADHD hyperactive single track minded type of person that could potentially forget my child/children in my truck on accident.

In fact, I've forgotten to drop off my daughter once at daycare and drove nearly all the way to work with her in the vehicle, however she was two and I heard her talking in the backseat. I'll never forget what I felt when I realized what could have happened. I'm not normally an anxious person, but I couldn't go in to work that day. I still have pretty dark thoughts sometimes about what could have happened.

It's why I usually insist that my wife drop my daughter off at daycare still...and this is almost two years later.

Does this mean I am a bad parent? I don't think so. I love my kids. I'd bet every single parent in that article would tell you the same.

That, my friend, is a beautiful example of why we SHOULDN'T be sending such parents to jail.

And forces me to concede thejeff's point at the same time.

Hmmm... I think I'll wander off and do some work now...


GM Niles wrote:
Does this mean I am a bad parent? I don't think so. I love my kids. I'd bet every single parent in that article would tell you the same.

I don't think that means you're a bad parent. Far from it. I think many parents forget that they are first and foremost still people. As long as the child in question doesn't suffer, I think it's really okay to forget something, sometimes maybe that the child is sleeping (safe and sound) on the backseat. The important thing is really that the child doesn't suffer from it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

What is an appropriate punishment, then?
If there isn't one, why have a law?


captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f&*& the selfish piece of s*&*.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I was going to ask. I think you'd better read the article if you want to be involved in a discussion on it. This is a heavy subject.


@BNWolf Man I'd pay for some sort of motion alarm type thing for my truck... It would make me a little less anxious about my newborn.

@CeresCato Honestly man. The fact that my daughter was awake is what make even more anxious... what would have happened if she had fallen asleep that morning and not ask me for her ducky? (her favorite stuffed animal she dropped) Like I said, very dark thoughts I don't like having.


I guess most of the time it falls into the category of (whoa, how to translate this) murder by negligence? Involuntary manslaughter?

Asking bing for some news I just found a bunch of cases from Poland, France, Austria, Switzerland and Belgium. In all the articles it was a father who was supposed to drop the child at daycare on his way to work and only remembered when his wife called him (because she couldn't fetch the child from daycare). In the Polish case, the father found the child on the evening in the car on the company's parking lot, completely dried out. He had a mental brakedown.


GM Niles wrote:


@CeresCato Honestly man. The fact that my daughter was awake is what make even more anxious... what would have happened if she had fallen asleep that morning and not ask me for her ducky? (her favorite stuffed animal she dropped) Like I said, very dark thoughts I don't like having.

Please, consider that I didn't say it's always okay to forget your child. But if there is no harm done, nobody should hold you accountable. Yes, it would have been tragic if your daughter would have come to harm because of it. But she didn't. I know, not being a mother myself might disqualify me for voicing my opinion in the matter, but as a daughter I have witnessed firsthand the overreaction of parents who made one mistake (that wasn't even the cause for any harm) and after that were always influenced in their parenting by that nagging fear resulting from it. I didn't say it's okay to forget your child. But maybe the idea with the teddybear on the front seat when the child is in the back isn't a bad one. Some reminder or such.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I've read it. Did not change my mind.


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Less than 1/million... Take a look at the disease statistics. Less than 1/100000 is usually the cutoff for the truly rare genetic disorders. SMA, if you want to look up something truly heartbreaking, is not nearly that rare. The issue is simply this: Nobody can always know everything they need to at every moment. Even if you know their whereabouts, you won't know all they are doing. Electric outlets, dangerous substances, open windows, sharp objects, matches... How many kids die from cot death each year? Far, far more. Don't pat yourself on the back. It CAN happen to you. Punishing people for this is inane and cruel.


For clarity, the article isn't just a persuasive piece—it is a large examination of several major examples of this occurrence, as well as the psychology and actual chemistry behind it. By not reading the article, you aren't just refusing to acknowledge another point of view, you are refusing to inform your opinion with crucial facts.

That is why someone who does not read the article does not have any place starting an argument here, especially not with such savage language as I've seen. This is the problem the article is trying to address, and the reason I felt it should be linked here in the first place.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

What if it happens more than once to the same parent(s)?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f&*& the selfish piece of s*&*.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I was going to ask. I think you'd better read the article if you want to be involved in a discussion on it. This is a heavy subject.

I said what I had to say on the matter, take it how you will I'll not get involved any longer, still won't read it, I've never forgotten my kids in the car and I'll never understand how people do it, that's all :-)


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captain yesterday wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f&*& the selfish piece of s*&*.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I was going to ask. I think you'd better read the article if you want to be involved in a discussion on it. This is a heavy subject.
I said what I had to say on the matter, take it how you will I'll not get involved any longer, still won't read it, I've never forgotten my kids in the car and I'll never understand how people do it, that's all :-)

But that's the point: People who have spun their daily routine AROUND their child, are hyper-organised and all that jazz and one tiny slip in their routine and it happens.

Basically, it could even happen to someone like you.


Alright, Captain Yesterday, if you don't want to get involved I can respect that. Sort of. Not really.

Kryzbyn wrote:
What if it happens more than once to the same parent(s)?

Find me an example of that happening and we'll talk. If a pattern is shown, appropriate action can be taken. But I am willing to bet my metal d20 that it has never happened twice. Not by accident.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's so random, in fact, it could happen to anyone multiple times.


@Kryzbyn I think you might not understand the math involved but...the fact that it is a highly random event makes it less likely that it would happen to someone twice....much much much, to the order of finding extraterrestrial life less likely.


GM Niles wrote:
@Kryzbyn I think you might not understand the math involved but...the fact that it is a highly random event makes it less likely that it would happen to someone twice....much much much, to the order of finding extraterrestrial life less likely.

Particularly when you consider that a parent it has happened to is probably going to do what every parent should do and take precautions from then on, such as purchasing a weight sensor or putting a teddy bear on the dashboard, instead of arrogantly writing it off as "something bad parents do".


I didn't say "bad parents" I said "selfish piece of shit" I don't like to be paraphrased:-p


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Oh, let me rephrase.

...instead of being arrogant pieces of shit and writing it off as "something selfish pieces of shit do".

This post is gonna get deleted, isn't it?

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