Iterative attack question


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

Hello everyone,

I have a question concerning my character build.

Class: Savage Technologist (built as PFS Legal)
Relevant feat: Quickdraw
Relevant weapons: Double-barreled Pistol, Gladius, Earthbreaker

Currently (level 5), while raging the character fights with a double-barreled pistol and a gladius during the first two rounds of combat, before switching to the earthbreaker because ammunition in the gun runs out.
Upon reaching level 6, the character receives an iterative attack.

The question is whether, while performing a Full Attack, the final action in the sequence below is legal, and if it is, if there are additional penalties apart from the -5 from it being an iterative attack.
1- Deliver the main hand attack with the gun
2- Deliver the off hand attack with the gladius
3- Drop both items as free actions
4- Draw the earthbreaker as a free action (Quickdraw)
5- Deliver the iterative attack with the earthbreaker

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

This is in the wrong forum. It should be in the rules forum. I will try to answer.

PRD, Savage Technologist wrote:
Sword and Gun (Ex): At 2nd level, when a raging savage technologist wields a one-handed firearm in one hand and a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other, she can make ranged attacks with the firearm without provoking attacks of opportunity. She also gains the benefits of the Two Weapon Fighting feat, but only if all attacks are made with those weapons. This ability replaces Uncanny Dodge.

Do you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?

If you do, then all of your attacks will suffer a –2 penalty on top of everything else (so the earthbreaker will be at –7).

If you don't, then you don't benefit from the Sword and Gun ability for that round because not all of your attacks are made with a one-handed firearm and a light weapon. In that case, the pistol and the earthbreaker will suffer a –4 penalty (the earthbreaker will be at –9), and the gladius will suffer a –8 penalty.

Even in the rounds that you use Sword and Gun (and don't use the earthbreaker), you still suffer the –2 penalty to your attacks.

Another option when you have the iterative attack:
Fire the double-barreled pistol once (at –2), stab with the gladius once (at –2), fire the double-barreled pistol again as your iterative attack (at –7).

Note that you must do it in that order because attacks must go from your highest BAB to your lowest, and your gladius is your off-hand attack.

I hope that helps.

Sovereign Court

Thanks for the reply Fox.
My apologies for posting in the wrong forum.

The Fox wrote:

Do you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat?

If you do, then all of your attacks will suffer a –2 penalty on top of everything else (so the earthbreaker will be at –7).

I'm not trying to break any rules here; I'm just curious as to why the -2 would apply, since (after drawing the earthbreaker) you are technically not fighting with two weapons anymore.

The Fox wrote:

Another option when you have the iterative attack:

Fire the double-barreled pistol once (at –2), stab with the gladius once (at –2), fire the double-barreled pistol again as your iterative attack (at –7).

Could I do gun-gladius-gladius as well, or does the iterative attack always have to be with your main hand weapon?

Lantern Lodge

Why not use the Gladius in your primary hand rather than a gun if you want to do that? It would also mean better damage with your melee weapon.

As far as I can see, the rules say say that when your BAB is +6 or higher you just get an extra attack, no restrictions on what that attacks is with.

Scarab Sages

Monkhound wrote:


The Fox wrote:

Another option when you have the iterative attack:

Fire the double-barreled pistol once (at –2), stab with the gladius once (at –2), fire the double-barreled pistol again as your iterative attack (at –7).
Could I do gun-gladius-gladius as well, or does the iterative attack always have to be with your main hand weapon?

Theres a FAQ. second half clarifies that when you get a bonus attack for two weapon fighting, your iteratives come from your 'main hand' (whichever weapon you want as your main hand) and our two weapon fighting attacks come from your 'off hand'.

Sovereign Court

That's quite the clarification I was looking for, thanks :)

I love the archetype and the gun+weapon combo, but it's quite a PitA to get working well in PFS. But I'm getting there :p

Silver Crusade

You can choose to use the gladius as your main hand weapon, but then you suffer greater penalties because your off-hand weapon isn't light.

If you did gladius/gun/gladius, the penalties would be –4/–4/–9.

I'm going to try to outline all of the possibilities for you.

Core Rulebook > Combat chapter > Full-Round Actions > Full Attack wrote:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first.

If your gladius is your off-hand weapon, then you can do

gun/gladius/gun –2/–2/–7, or
gladius/gun/gun –2/–2/–7.

If your gun is your off-hand weapon, then you can do
gladius/gun/gladius –4/–4/–9, or
gun/gladius/gladius –4/–4/–9.

Notice that your third attack is always with your main-hand weapon.

Now let's throw the earthbreaker into the mix. You aren't making all of the attacks with just a firearm and a light weapon, so you no longer have the benefit of the Sword and Gun ability.

If the third attack is the earthbreaker, then you can do the other two attacks in either order. But you should choose the gladius to be your off-hand weapon, because the penalties are less. Since you don't have Two-Weapon Fighting, your attacks will be
gun/gladius/earthbreaker –4/–8/–9, or
gladius/gun/earthbreaker –8/–4/–9 (in this case, your attack bonuses are allowed to be out of order, from highest to lowest, because you are using two weapons, you can choose which one you attack with first, but the third attack always needs to be the main hand weapon).

Alternatively, you could start with the earthbreaker, then switch to the gladius and the gun (through Quick Draw). In this case, your attacks will be
earthbreaker/gladius/gun –4/–8/–9.

You could do earthbreaker/gun/gladius, but then the gun is your off-hand attack. Without Two-Weapon Fighting, the penalties are steep. Your attacks would be
earthbreaker/gun/gladius –6/–10/–11.

Sovereign Court

When you reach the point where you switch the gun to your off hand, you can just as well start using a one-handed weapon in your main hand, rather than a light weapon, slightly increasing the damage.

That would result in:
Gun/Longsword/Gun for a -4/-4/-9

The next problem arises when you receive a Haste spell while you have the gun as main weapon. Using the gun as main hand weapon, means you cannot complete your full attack, because you run out of ammunition, so you have to switch to the sword as a primary weapon, which gets slightly compensated because Haste gives you an attack bonus.

So that would translate to:
Longsword (main)/Gun (off)/Longsword (iterative)/Longsword (haste) for a -3/-3/-8/-3

As a result the iterative attack will likely miss, since in this setup you don't fire against Touch AC, like you were doing with the gun.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You can't use a two-weapon fighting the same round as you use a two-handed weapon per the faq. So just toss the earthbreaker out unless you have that feat that lets you wield the earthbreaker 1 handed or effortless lace or something along those lines.


Effortless Lace wouldn't actually help the Earthbreaker.

Silver Crusade

Maezer wrote:
You can't use a two-weapon fighting the same round as you use a two-handed weapon per the faq. So just toss the earthbreaker out unless you have that feat that lets you wield the earthbreaker 1 handed or effortless lace or something along those lines.

Can you link to that FAQ, please? I can't find it.

In fact, some two-handed weapons, such as a quarterstaff or an orc double axe, are specifically designed to be used with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

Something I am less sure about (which is why I didn't mention it earlier but seems worth mentioning now) ...

I believe that attacks with two-handed weapons made during a round that you use the two-weapon fighting rules (with or without the TWF feat) add only your Strength bonus to the damage instead of the one-and-a-half times your Strength bonus.

Sovereign Court

I already dropped the idea of making the iterative attack with the earthbreaker. Dropping gun+sword, drawing the EB and readying it for AoO's would be the final actions of either the first or second round (depending on the situation).

But I'm curious as to the FAQ mentioned by Maezer all the same, as well as whether you are right Fox.. Would that also affect the AoO's?

Silver Crusade

Monkhound wrote:
The next problem arises when you receive a Haste spell while you have the gun as main weapon. Using the gun as main hand weapon, means you cannot complete your full attack, because you run out of ammunition...

Take the Rapid Reload feat and use alchemical paper cartridges.

Then your attacks are
gladius/gun/gun/gun –3/–3/–3/–8, or
gun/gun/gladius/gun –3/–3/–3/–8.

However, you need to drop your gladius to reload the gun, and if you aren't holding a light weapon in your off-hand, you don't benefit from Sword and Gun (you can't use the TWF bonuses and your firearm attacks provoke attacks of opportunity).

If you have a dagger handy, you can do the following:
1. shoot your gun at –3;
2. shoot your gun at –3;
3. stab with your gladius at –3;
4. drop your gladius;
5. Rapid Reload your pistol;
6. Quick Draw your dagger;
7. shoot your gun at –8.


The Fox wrote:
In fact, some two-handed weapons, such as a quarterstaff or an orc double axe, are specifically designed to be used with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

Just want to comment on this: those are Double Weapons, which have special rules for TWF (during which you do not use them as two-handed weapons). They are not even remotely similar to an Earthbreaker in this regard.

Silver Crusade

Monkhound wrote:
Would that also affect the AoO's?

No.

FAQ wrote:
Generally speaking, penalties on attacks made during your turn do not carry over to attacks of opportunity unless they specifically state otherwise (such as the penalty from using Power Attack or Combat Expertise).

Silver Crusade

kestral287 wrote:
The Fox wrote:
In fact, some two-handed weapons, such as a quarterstaff or an orc double axe, are specifically designed to be used with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Just want to comment on this: those are Double Weapons, which have special rules for TWF (during which you do not use them as two-handed weapons). They are not even remotely similar to an Earthbreaker in this regard.

I am aware those are double weapons an have special rules (they are treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon).

But I am not aware of any rule or FAQ that prevents the following using the Two-Weapon Fighting and Quick Draw feats:

1. Make a primary attack using an earthbreaker;
2. Release your grip in your off-hand as a free action;
3. Quick Draw a dagger into your off hand;
4. Make an off-hand attack with the dagger.

You would take a –2 penalty to both attacks and (I believe) you can only apply 1x Strength to the earthbreaker damage instead of the usual 1.5x Strength.

Is there a rule or FAQ that clarifies this?

Edit: without Quick Draw, one should be able to do the following with just Two-Weapon Fighting.

Start with a dagger in your off-hand and your main hand holding (not wielding) your earthbreaker.

1. Make an off-hand attack with the dagger;
2. Drop the dagger as a free action;
3. Grip the earthbreaker as a free action;
4. Make your primary attack with the earthbreaker.

Again, both attacks are made at –2 and the earthbreaker only gets 1x Strength damage.

Sovereign Court

The Fox wrote:
However, you need to drop your gladius to reload the gun, and if you aren't holding a light weapon in your off-hand, you don't benefit from Sword and Gun (you can't use the TWF bonuses and your firearm attacks provoke attacks of opportunity).

Reloading a gun could be an issue while in rage, and the increased misfire chance is problematic as well. A double-barreled pistol has misfire of 2, and paper cartridges increase that chance to 3, so I'm prepared to have only 2 shots per combat.

The archetype was developped for Iron Gods, which should have laser guns with more charges than the early firearms available in PFS (and than the timeworn guns in PFS), which helps circumventing the reloading issue.

Silver Crusade

Monkhound wrote:
The archetype was developped for Iron Gods, which should have laser guns with more charges than the early firearms available in PFS (and than the timeworn guns in PFS), which helps circumventing the reloading issue.

Yeah, I'm playing in an Iron Gods game (I have a techslinger android with Two-Weapon Fighting and Quick Draw, so similar abilities). The savage technologist is a great archetype for that campaign.

It will still work well for you in PFS, I suspect, even with low-tech firearms.

If you don't want to reload in combat, you can always Quick Draw a secondary pistol. Not bad to have a second pistol around anyway in case of a misfire.

Also, did you take a level of Gunslinger so as to get a starting pistol? Otherwise it takes a fair amount of fame before you can start purchasing firearms (gunslingers even need to wait a while to get backup guns).

Sovereign Court

No, and unfortunately, and I'm not inclined to take a Gunslinger level now because I dumped my wisdom :p I took Technologist and Gunslinger as level 1 feats, and I could finally afford my gun during level 3 because of the fame requirement, functioning as a weird tank-barian for the first few levels.
A backup gun could solve some things indeed. I'll think about it. Thanks for the support, anyway! :D


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The Fox wrote:


Can you link to that FAQ, please? I can't find it.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9


Monkhound, what you're trying to do in the first post is almost fine. There's a lot of information about various TWF interactions, some from the CRB, some from FAQS, and some based on buried DEV forum posts.

1) Sword and Gun's "She also gains the benefits of the Two Weapon Fighting feat, but only if all attacks are made with those weapons."

This is related to a recent thread I started concerning TWF modifiers changing in the middle of an attack sequence. The rules here are actually rather undefined, so expect table variation on how TWF modifiers are handled while doing this.

2)"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."

This only applies to base attack bonus extra attacks, so it doesn't apply to extra attacks from two weapon fighting. As far as I know, it's never been officially clarified if there's an order you must make attacks in beyond this single limitation.

3) You can't use a two-weapon fighting the same round as you use a two-handed weapon per the faq.

This is an often mis-quoted FAQ entry on whether you can combine a two handed weapon with an offhand attack. By reading forum posts, it becomes clearer what their intent here is: when you use a two-handed weapon, you "consume" an offhand attack, thus making it unavailable for use with TWF. However, if you have a high enough BAB and the right feats, you can still shift between a two-handed weapon and TWF in the same round - the FAQ is only addressing the basic case.

For example, if you have +6 BAB, TWF, and ITWF, this is a legal sequence:
Attack with gun in mainhand.
Attack with gladius in offhand.
Drop both, quick draw your earthbreaker, and attack with your iterative. (consuming 2nd offhand attack)

The reason why you can't do this with your current build is because you lack ITWF. You currently only have a single offhand attack. So you can use it to either swing your gladius or to pay the "cost" of swinging your earthbreaker, but not both.


Quote:
By reading forum posts, it becomes clearer what their intent here is: when you use a two-handed weapon, you "consume" an offhand attack, thus making it unavailable for use with TWF. However, if you have a high enough BAB and the right feats, you can still shift between a two-handed weapon and TWF in the same round - the FAQ is only addressing the basic case.

Except that's... wrong. Per the FAQ linked, the actual hand is what's unavailable, not the attacks. Having more attacks with your off-hand does not actually supply an additional off-hand, which is what you'd actually need.

The core problem is that by the rules you can't supply the hand, because it's doing other things.


kestral287 wrote:
Quote:
By reading forum posts, it becomes clearer what their intent here is: when you use a two-handed weapon, you "consume" an offhand attack, thus making it unavailable for use with TWF. However, if you have a high enough BAB and the right feats, you can still shift between a two-handed weapon and TWF in the same round - the FAQ is only addressing the basic case.

Except that's... wrong. Per the FAQ linked, the actual hand is what's unavailable, not the attacks. Having more attacks with your off-hand does not actually supply an additional off-hand, which is what you'd actually need.

The core problem is that by the rules you can't supply the hand, because it's doing other things.

Except the physical hand actually has very little to do with offhand attacks. You can make offhand attacks with all manner of body parts, and even if you want to use the physical hand, it's very easy to come up with ways to replace the weapon held by it in the middle of an attack sequence.


This is true, but changes the point not at all.

The metaphorical hand is what's unavailable, and having more attacks with your metaphorical hand does not actually supply an additional metaphorical hand, which is what you need. The core problem is that by the rules you can't supply the metaphorical hand, because it's doing other things.

Is that better?


Right, but Improved Two-Weapon Fighting provides an extra use of your "metaphorical" offhand.

You can thus do an extra offhand "thing". This can be making an offhand attack or aiding in a two-handed weapon attack.

Choosing to use your first use of your metaphorical hand in one manner doesn't prevent you from choosing the other option with your second use.


Byakko wrote:

Right, but Improved Two-Weapon Fighting provides an extra use of your "metaphorical" offhand.

You can thus do an extra offhand "thing". This can be making an offhand attack or aiding in a two-handed weapon attack.

Choosing to use your first use of your metaphorical hand in one manner doesn't prevent you from choosing the other option with your second use.

Can you cite any kind of rules source on that?


The Fox wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
The Fox wrote:
In fact, some two-handed weapons, such as a quarterstaff or an orc double axe, are specifically designed to be used with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Just want to comment on this: those are Double Weapons, which have special rules for TWF (during which you do not use them as two-handed weapons). They are not even remotely similar to an Earthbreaker in this regard.

I am aware those are double weapons an have special rules (they are treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon).

But I am not aware of any rule or FAQ that prevents the following using the Two-Weapon Fighting and Quick Draw feats:

1. Make a primary attack using an earthbreaker;
2. Release your grip in your off-hand as a free action;
3. Quick Draw a dagger into your off hand;
4. Make an off-hand attack with the dagger.

You would take a –2 penalty to both attacks and (I believe) you can only apply 1x Strength to the earthbreaker damage instead of the usual 1.5x Strength.

Is there a rule or FAQ that clarifies this?

Edit: without Quick Draw, one should be able to do the following with just Two-Weapon Fighting.

Start with a dagger in your off-hand and your main hand holding (not wielding) your earthbreaker.

1. Make an off-hand attack with the dagger;
2. Drop the dagger as a free action;
3. Grip the earthbreaker as a free action;
4. Make your primary attack with the earthbreaker.

Again, both attacks are made at –2 and the earthbreaker only gets 1x Strength damage.

Um ... it's been officially shot down. '[Y]ou are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.' While the weapon involved is armour spikes and/or spiked gauntlets, I don't imagine drawing a dagger to help the situation.


Qaianna, we've talked about that FAQ quite a few times already. That's nothing new in this thread. That's part of the basis for why using a two-handed weapon to attack consumes an offhand use. However, it is only referring to the base case. When you have more attacks (and specifically, more offhand attacks), there are more options and the situations gets more complicated.

kestral, there are quite a number of very long threads concerning this and similar situations. My opinions on this were formed after reading them thoroughly a while back, but I didn't think to keep a record of the important posts. One day, I'll have the time to go find them all again, but that day is not today. :/

In any case, if you don't use this style of offhand attack consumption (or something similar), you get into very strange and contradictory situations once you fully analyze mixing various attack types in a single round.


Byakko wrote:

kestral, there are quite a number of very long threads concerning this and similar situations. My opinions on this were formed after reading them thoroughly a while back, but I didn't think to keep a record of the important posts. One day, I'll have the time to go find them all again, but that day is not today. :/

In any case, if you don't use this style of offhand attack consumption (or something similar), you get into very strange and contradictory situations once you fully analyze mixing various attack types in a single round.

We're talking about hands that may or may not actually exist. Of course it's going to get strange and contradictory.

For example: if all you need for Two-Handed Fighting is a main hand and a metaphorical off-hand, can a one-armed dude use a Greatsword? He still has that metaphorical hand to use. That's going to be a question under any kind of actual decision regarding this question. There is no neat, straightforward solution, because there are weird questions no matter how you rule it.

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