legal potions question for season 6


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The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Invisibility sphere "functions like invisibility, except. . ." None of the later texts changes the targeting line of the spell and the target of invisibility is "you or a creature or object." (Compare this to cure moderate wounds and later spells in the line which do not have a target in the initial stat line but all say they "function like cure light wounds except...) So it is legal to be made into a potion.

Mechanically it works but it is somewhat difficult to visualize how it would work. I guess the easiest visualization is to think of it charging the target with magical energy. It initially "pulses" with energy but after that it only maintains the effect on the creatures that were initially affected.

The Exchange 5/5

Expect table variation.

YMMV

Scarab Sages 4/5

Kevin - That's what I was missing. It looks like it should work, then.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Ferious Thune wrote:
I'm not sure if the issue with Invisibility Sphere is whether a potion can affect more than the user or not. An Oil of Darkness, for example, can affect someone other than the user by them being in the radius of the effect. The issue is who does Invisibility Sphere target? The spell does not actually list a target. It's an emanation, pesumably from the caster. I'm not sure, but I think that means it can't be a potion, since it doesn't target one or more creatures. If it did target a creature, it seems likely it might be Target: you, but the description is a little vague on that point as well. As the listing exists, I don't think it's possible for a caster to target another specific individual other than themselves, so I believe that probably makes it ineligible as a potion.

its something that i really wish we could get a ruling on invisibility sphere acts as invisibility and targets one creature or object then others withing 10ft gain the benefit

the real question boils down to , in order for a spell to be a potion must it actually have the 'target' literal in the spell description or can it designate a 'creature' in the area Invisibility sphere or magical circle vs x

every ruling i have seen lends toward magical circle vs x being legal as a potion so invis sphere would be as well.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Potions can't affect anyone but the user, can they? I don't see how invisibility sphere can work as a potion.

This sort of wording is not present in the item creation stuff on potions. Nothing in the description of the spell invalidates its use as a potion. Heck, most of its parameters refer back to the invisibility spell itself, which we all know can be a potion.

I mean, drink it, feel the warm glow of invisibility spreading to englobe your nearby buddies. Even on a conceptual level, there seems to be no obstacle here.

Certainly on a rules-lawer level, nothing in the spell description or the relevant bits about potion creation and use invalidate it.

4/5 *

Yeah, that was refuted a week or so ago. RAW it appears to be legal. Just because you don't see conceptual obstacles, though, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

The key is this. It only affects one target: The imbiber.

If casting it, let's you pick multiple targets, it only selects the imbiber. If the imbiber gets an aura or effect, then that effect or aura works as intended in the spell description.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Invisibility works on objects as well as on people. Ergo, you can get an oil of invisibility.

Invisibility sphere works exactly like invisibility except the spell confers invisibility to all creatures within 10 feet. So, it too works on objects. Hence, it too can be used as an oil of invisibility sphere.

You can use oils on either objects or creatures.

Enjoy.

The Exchange 5/5

The Fox wrote:

Invisibility works on objects as well as on people. Ergo, you can get an oil of invisibility.

Invisibility sphere works exactly like invisibility except the spell confers invisibility to all creatures within 10 feet. So, it too works on objects. Hence, it too can be used as an oil of invisibility sphere.

You can use oils on either objects or creatures.

Enjoy.

I think that from the wording of Invisibility sphere, it only works on creatures... (bolding mine)

"...This spell functions like invisibility, except that this spell confers invisibility upon all creatures within 10 feet of the recipient at the time the spell is cast. The center of the effect is mobile with the recipient.

Those affected by this spell can see each other and themselves as if unaffected by the spell. Any affected creature moving out of the area becomes visible, but creatures moving into the area after the spell is cast do not become invisible. Affected creatures (other than the recipient) who attack negate the invisibility only for themselves. If the spell recipient attacks, the invisibility sphere ends."

so the bolded part would limit it to creatures (IMHO)

5/5 5/55/55/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Yeah, that was refuted a week or so ago. RAW it appears to be legal. Just because you don't see conceptual obstacles, though, doesn't mean they aren't there.

It was refuted with official errata or it was argued against? They're vastly different.

Silver Crusade 3/5

nosig wrote:


The Fox wrote:

...

You can use oils on either objects or creatures.
...

...

so the bolded part would limit it to creatures (IMHO)

Oils still work on creatures.

We have oils for daylight, darkness, silence, magic circle against evil, ...

There is no reason to not allow invisibility sphere work as intended.

The recipient is whoever you rub the oil on. All creatures within 10 ft of the recipient are conferred with invisibility.

The reading is perfectly clear.

The Exchange 5/5

wait...
I just looked and it appears Invisibility Sphere has an Area, not a Target...

so... what was the question here? Potions can't be crafted of spells with an Area...Otherwise I'll start buying potions of spells like Obscuring Mist, Sleep, and Fireball

from the PRD...

Spell:

Invisibility Sphere

School illusion (glamer); Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3

Components: V, S, M

Area 10-ft.-radius emanation around the creature

This spell functions like invisibility, except that this spell confers invisibility upon all creatures within 10 feet of the recipient at the time the spell is cast. The center of the effect is mobile with the recipient.

Those affected by this spell can see each other and themselves as if unaffected by the spell. Any affected creature moving out of the area becomes visible, but creatures moving into the area after the spell is cast do not become invisible. Affected creatures (other than the recipient) who attack negate the invisibility only for themselves. If the spell recipient attacks, the invisibility sphere ends.

The Exchange 5/5

The Fox wrote:
nosig wrote:


The Fox wrote:

...

You can use oils on either objects or creatures.
...

...

so the bolded part would limit it to creatures (IMHO)

Oils still work on creatures.

We have oils for daylight, darkness, silence, magic circle against evil, ...

There is no reason to not allow invisibility sphere work as intended.

The recipient is whoever you rub the oil on. All creatures within 10 ft of the recipient are conferred with invisibility.

The reading is perfectly clear.

actually,

as was pointed out to me some time ago...you can't buy oils of silence.... (or magic circle against evil for that matter).

5/5 5/55/55/5

paging Table variation

Silence does have a target, it doesn't have a line for target in the spell description. Thats not the same thing.

The Exchange 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

paging Table variation

Silence does have a target, it doesn't have a line for target in the spell description. Thats not the same thing.

The same can be said of fireball and obscuring mist...

So, are you saying that at your table, someone can buy an Oil of Silence? or an Oil of Obscuring Mist?

The Exchange 5/5

The more interesting question for me is, can Vanish be cast on an object? (it says it works like invisibility, but lists "target" as one creature - which is different from invisibility and if so, does it have the same weight limit as invisibility?

5/5 5/55/55/5

nosig wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

paging Table variation

Silence does have a target, it doesn't have a line for target in the spell description. Thats not the same thing.

The same can be said of fireball and obscuring mist...

So, are you saying that at your table, someone can buy an Oil of Silence? or an Oil of Obscuring Mist?

yes and no. Oil of silence is stuck on an object: it has a target. Obscuring mist rises at your location and is stuck in place.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

nosig wrote:

wait...

I just looked and it appears Invisibility Sphere has an Area, not a Target...

so... what was the question here? Potions can't be crafted of spells with an Area.

Invisibility sphere does have a target.

Kevin Willis wrote:
Invisibility sphere "functions like invisibility, except. . ." None of the later texts changes the targeting line of the spell and the target of invisibility is "you or a creature or object." (Compare this to cure moderate wounds and later spells in the line which do not have a target in the initial stat line but all say they "function like cure light wounds except...) So it is legal to be made into a potion.

If invisibility sphere has no target, neither does cure serious wounds.

The Exchange 5/5

Belafon wrote:
nosig wrote:

wait...

I just looked and it appears Invisibility Sphere has an Area, not a Target...

so... what was the question here? Potions can't be crafted of spells with an Area.

Invisibility sphere does have a target.

Kevin Willis wrote:
Invisibility sphere "functions like invisibility, except. . ." None of the later texts changes the targeting line of the spell and the target of invisibility is "you or a creature or object." (Compare this to cure moderate wounds and later spells in the line which do not have a target in the initial stat line but all say they "function like cure light wounds except...) So it is legal to be made into a potion.
If invisibility sphere has no target, neither does cure serious wounds.

In the spell write-up for CSW there is a Target line (no Area).

In the spell write-up for I.Sphere there is an Area line (no Target).

Invisibility sphere does not have a Target line - no target. It has an Area line, an Area of Effect.

from the PRD:
"Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate."

The Exchange 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
nosig wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

paging Table variation

Silence does have a target, it doesn't have a line for target in the spell description. Thats not the same thing.

The same can be said of fireball and obscuring mist...

So, are you saying that at your table, someone can buy an Oil of Silence? or an Oil of Obscuring Mist?

yes and no. Oil of silence is stuck on an object: it has a target. Obscuring mist rises at your location and is stuck in place.

here's the spell write-up from the PRD:

Silence:

"School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric 2

Casting Time 1 round

Components V, S

Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space

Duration 1 round/level (D)

Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)

Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.

It never says anything about a target. In fact, it seems to go out of it's way to AVOID using the term "Target"... why would it do that if the spell has a Target?

The closest it comes is the lines... " ...The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any..."

5/5 5/55/55/5

The closest it comes is the lines... " ...The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any..."

Which i find indistinguishable from a target.

The Exchange 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The closest it comes is the lines... " ...The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any..."

Which i find indistinguishable from a target.

so, bringing this back to the tread title, in PFS in Season 6/7, at your table, a PC can buy and use Oils of silence?

Derailing the thread for private question:
Can Vanish be cast on an object? (it says it works like invisibility, but lists "target" as one creature - which is different from the target for "invisibility") and if so, does it have the same weight limit as invisibility?

The Exchange 5/5

The Fox wrote:

Invisibility works on objects as well as on people. Ergo, you can get an oil of invisibility.

Invisibility sphere works exactly like invisibility except the spell confers invisibility to all creatures within 10 feet. So, it too works on objects. Hence, it too can be used as an oil of invisibility sphere.

You can use oils on either objects or creatures.

Enjoy.

Would it also confer the invisibility on all objects within the area of effect (within 10' of the recipient)?

but... then if someone is sitting at a poker table with 4 friends, and rubs oil of invisibility sphere on himself, then his 4 friends, the table, cards, poker chips, 5 chairs... drinks on the table, etc., ALL become invisible? Does it suffer the weight limit that invisibility has? If so, is that for total weight or is each creature/object effected limited?

Dark Archive 5/5

An interesting side note:
In a PFS game not to long ago, my PC used vanish on an elephant... because she could not cast invisibility (the elephant weighed to much for her to effect with the invisibility...but vanish has no weight limit)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

In a recent adventure certain enemies made a t-rex drink a potion of invisibility.

Just imagine that dino tiptoeing around the adventurers with his +9 Stealth score.

The Exchange 5/5

Muser wrote:

In a recent adventure certain enemies made a t-rex drink a potion of invisibility.

Just imagine that dino tiptoeing around the adventurers with his +11 Stealth score.

Not a problem...as long as the T Rex counts as the caster... (YMMV, it is >300 lbs, right?)

;-)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I'm sure it was a special serpentfolk potion.

The Exchange 5/5

Muser wrote:
I'm sure it was a special serpentfolk potion.

LOL! More than llikely! Or maybe a long duration potion of vanish? No weight limit on that one...

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

Muser wrote:

In a recent adventure certain enemies made a t-rex drink a potion of invisibility.

Just imagine that dino tiptoeing around the adventurers with his +9 Stealth score.

Did the enemies have sufficient skill in Handle Animal to allow this? Drink Potion isn't exactly a standard trick.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Yes.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Potion sponge squeeky toy

The Exchange 5/5

Wow...picture a bag of Goodberries tossed into an open mouth...

"20 full meals..."

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