plus its 2 upgrades(+2 size on objects), allow a enlarged barbarian to hurl "huge" objects, listed as 6d6 damage.
Does Strenght and Object Weight play into this in any form?
=> Could a Barbarian buffed and with sufficient rage-strenght throw things that are pretty much at the limit of his lifting strenght?
And if so, how does a Heavyload-Belt play into it?
=> Could above-mentioned barbarian hurl even heaver objects?(As in, is the only requirement for hurling it that the barbarian be able to lift the object and it fits the size?)
While the basic idea is to duplicate a Catapult with less range increment but higher rate of fire(and lots of stray shots hitting the general target area), there is also a secondary question:
Considering there is a Reflex-Save for half damage, a failed Save probably means a proper hit.
Considering the ammo is possible something like a huge wagon or a stone larger than the enlarged barbarian, it's rather unlogical to assume the hurled object just vanishes into nothingness after impact.
In that case, if a "huge", properly formed(not round, rather flat) massive stone weighing, say, 1000-6000(depending on above answers) lbs lands on, say, a squishy caster(max heavy load: 80 lbs), would said caster get trapped[Edit: Pinned, to use proper terminology] underneath it? As in, be covered by an object he is unable to lift or wiggle out off?(Not even thinking about cave-in-ruling or per-round damage as thats CLEARLY not the intent. I imagine that somewhat like in the old asterix movie in which obelix throws a menhir at the druid)
I know probably its a table call, but are there any precedents for falling objects trapping characters except during cave-ins or in traps?
Seeing how its a full round-action and 3 rage powers, i wonder if there's any mileage beyond the 6d6 to get out of it. I know it's also a table call regarding the large and huge objects that potentially cover several 5-feet squares/creatures, but for simplicitiys sake, the barbarians will stick to throwing huge but compact stones at most 5x10feet they transported there.
Intent is massive bombardment of a defended stronghold by a whole tribe of them(well, a reasonable number of the tribe), so not close-range specific targetting, but general area bombardment, rather an guarantee that some people WILL inevitably get hit, and the inside of the stronghold littered with huge stones(some ON people) making it difficult terrain before the following assault.
So I will probably get some people alive and trapped under stones either way, but if there's no "proper" rules for handling that I will probably use (important) NPC's for that part and improvise.
(edit: see above, just changed one part of terminology).
Ah, here we have the return of the "drop heavy objects on enemies" tactic.
The rules don't really cover any aspects beyond dealing some damage to the target. It's best to see it as a simple application of damage and not apply any other effects, even if they would be realistic. After all, it's not like we have rules for slicing off limbs and getting weapons stuck inside foes, etc. Some things are best just left simplified and abstracted away.
However, if this is a home game and your GM is feeling creative, I suggest looking up some old threads concerning dropping heavy stuff on enemies utilizing the Shrink Item spell.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Sadly while awesome, Pathfinder is a game of abstractions, while the huge object may persist as terrain you would need some alternative feat/power to say trip or entangle with a ranged attack. Or you could look at the giant sized alchemical weapons.
Byakko wrote: Ah, here we have the return of the "drop heavy objects on enemies" tactic.
The rules don't really cover any aspects beyond dealing some damage to the target. It's best to see it as a simple application of damage and not apply any other effects, even if they would be realistic. After all, it's not like we have rules for slicing off limbs and getting weapons stuck inside foes, etc. Some things are best just left simplified and abstracted away.
However, if this is a home game and your GM is feeling creative, I suggest looking up some old threads concerning dropping heavy stuff on enemies utilizing the Shrink Item spell.
as said, I am the GM in the game in question, and am currently fleshing out the barbarian tribe.
A full-rage Barrage of 20 hurlers dropping about 500 stones at the fortress over a time span of approximately 2 minutes is a lot better than transporting, assembling and operating a number of catapults.
so aye, it is a home game. I know there is no rules for slicing of limbs and the like, but i do know there are rules for a cave-in, and i belief earlier iterations of the system had something similar for an avalanche or quicksand.
It also did not seem absurd that some module or adventure path could have a huge creature attempting to "trap" medium-sized prey with something like that, even going so far as to not deal damage and rather just immobilize single targets courtesy of something "heavy" placed on them they can't lift.
So aye, I just wanted to check if there were any rules in that regard.
Heck, for all I want, they could instead be throwing huge birdcages without a floor, if you fail the reflex save you don't take damage but now sit in a 1500 lbs birdcage with no opening.
As said, not trying to game the system here, just looking if there's some rules about people being covered by an object too heavy for them to lift besides the cave-in-hazard.
I am not looking for ways to crush people in a bit with stonewalls or the like, if thats what your first-line-comment was intended to imply, just looking to include something in a upcoming battle that will make sense immersion-wise and increase tension(as mentioned i am reluctant to use cave-in-rules because while the non-lethal/lethal damage makes sense, i was under the impression it was per round. Since you made me look it up and its just per minute, i'll probably just use those rules.)
@galnörag
Gamewise, I totally understand that per abstraction, they would need extra feats to do that.
As very likely there are no specific feats for that scenario, and considering they are NPC barbarians, i would probably just have omitted some of their feats assuming they took something relevant since they are specialised on this.
So aye, that would have been provided. It's just that I seem to lack rules in the first place, which will mean that the persons trapped will be several NPC's while the PC's can count themselves lucky(and possible get a few of the NPC's out before the assault begins).
Byakko wrote: ...
Basically, what I am asking, and should probably have done clearer: What happens if the "load" on a character exceeds his maximum load?
Could happen any time, say someone close to light weight limit gets hit by an empowered maximized Ray of Enfeeblement, worst case person fails their save and are now down 6+3+5= 14 strenght, which means their previously "light" load of 60 pounds is now three times their maximum load of 20 pounds.
Double maximum load means staggered and only 5 feet per round with no Dex to AC.
What happens beyond double maximum? Logic would say: can't move, can't lift, basically helpless on the floor, maybe allow a check to get rid of something he carries. But where's the rules for that? Can't find them in encumbrance.
So, my thoughts on how to handle it involves some hand waving. This isn't personal combat so the details of what is going on can be glossed over more. After the bombardment, add some random boulders to the map with squished bodies. They are NPC's so you can say they are crushed or trapped if you want. If you want to aim at a PC though, I would just roll for damage, not being trapped. That will just make things to complicated. NPCs get smashed, PCs just get clipped in the shoulder as it flies by.
This may be a bit off topic from your question, but it seems relevant. Those barbarians are going to be standing only 50 ft from that fort. If the defenders have ranged weapons, they are going to turn the barbarians into pin cushions.
Also, I think it is worth noting that Raging Hurler is kind of an opportunity power. Most barbarians don't go lugging around a wagon of boulders.
Your best bet is just to come up with some custom "mini-game" rules that are reasonable for your players. Reflex savings throws to dodge the rocks, Strength checks to lift and escape from fallen rocks, and the like. It's your game, so I recommend making the numbers a reasonable challenge instead of focusing too much on what makes perfect logical sense.
Btw, my references were to several quite long threads concerning use of the Shrink Item spell. While this may not be exactly what you're doing, there is likely to be many creative ideas in them that you can put to use.
In any case, this is turning out to not really be a rules forum question. I recommend this gets moved to the Advice section.
Byakko wrote: Your best bet is just to come up with some custom "mini-game" rules that are reasonable for your players. Reflex savings throws to dodge the rocks, Strength checks to lift and escape from fallen rocks, and the like. It's your game, so I recommend making the numbers a reasonable challenge instead of focusing too much on what makes perfect logical sense.
Btw, my references were to several quite long threads concerning use of the Shrink Item spell. While this may not be exactly what you're doing, there is likely to be many creative ideas in them that you can put to use.
In any case, this is turning out to not really be a rules forum question. I recommend this gets moved to the Advice section.
aye and thanks for that, but the rules question remains as posted above:
What happens, per RAW, if the "load" on a character exceeds his maximum load for whatever reason?
I would also say that while i am thankful for your suggestions, I am not really looking for advice. If I know I have to make stuff up myself thats perfectly fine. I just try and stick to the rules where possible.
justicar347 wrote: So, my thoughts on how to handle it involves some hand waving. This isn't personal combat so the details of what is going on can be glossed over more. After the bombardment, add some random boulders to the map with squished bodies. They are NPC's so you can say they are crushed or trapped if you want. If you want to aim at a PC though, I would just roll for damage, not being trapped. That will just make things to complicated. NPCs get smashed, PCs just get clipped in the shoulder as it flies by.
This may be a bit off topic from your question, but it seems relevant. Those barbarians are going to be standing only 50 ft from that fort. If the defenders have ranged weapons, they are going to turn the barbarians into pin cushions.
Also, I think it is worth noting that Raging Hurler is kind of an opportunity power. Most barbarians don't go lugging around a wagon of boulders.
Aye, as said, those Barbarians are just part of a greater horde, so they can be somewhat specialized. You are right, though, that most likely they should stick to LARGE boulders and increase the range increment.
Either way, they would do it from behind cover, throwing in an arc.
Also I was inclined to allow them additional range increments since they are completely happy with just peppering the area(using catapult scattering mechanics), rather than aiming at a certain spot, and the range increments on throwing weapons seem somewhat limiting.
Just looking at a few:
Dagger: 50 feet
Spear: 100 feet
Javelin: 150 feet
Spears at Olympics get thrown close to 300 feet, considering the superhuman gimmicks pathfinder allows us to pull off otherwise the "max 5 increments" seems kinda lame. So aye, never been a big fan of that. Each increment lowers your to-hit anyway, so at my table, you are welcome to try.
Quote: Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character's maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character's Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
Find how much they can lift, with all their gear and modifiers.
If the object's weight is equal to or less than their maximum load, they can lift it. (and throw it)
If it's equal to or less than double their maximum load they can lift it. I would rule that they could not throw it and their only options are to either drop it or to stagger 5' as described above.
If it weighs more than that, they can't lift it and/or must immediately drop the object.
Byakko wrote: After all, it's not like we have rules for slicing off limbs... Nah, but we can rip them off!
Byakko wrote: Quote: Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character's maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character's Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
Find how much they can lift, with all their gear and modifiers.
If the object's weight is equal to or less than their maximum load, they can lift it. (and throw it)
If it's equal to or less than double their maximum load they can lift it. I would rule that they could not throw it and their only options are to either drop it or to stagger 5' as described above.
If it weighs more than that, they can't lift it and/or must immediately drop the object.
Aye, that i have seen. But what if you cannot "drop" the object. Take example above, maximized Ray of Enfeeblement against a full Caster, fails Fortitude Save, is now at Strenght 1. His double Heavy Load is now 20 lbs, and he is "Morbidly weak, has significant trouble lifting own limbs". Obviously he will have to drop the crossbow, and barely hold on to the wand, but that backpack he has, along with clothes and other items, basically pins him to the ground. Or, does it?
Can he make an escape artist or sleight of hand check to slip out of the loaded backpack? Can he just drop it regardless of being hopelessly encumbered? Can he crawl 5 feet per round towards the party muscle crying for help?
Those are the rules I need and can't find.
While there aren't specific rules for it, I would use the following, in addition to the previous listed rules, as guidance:
Quote: A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more. A character with a Strength of 1 has a maximum load of 10 pounds. I would impose the following rules on such a character:
If they had gear weighing between 10 and 20 pounds, they could stagger 5' as a full round action.
If they had gear weighing more than 20 pounds, they would be forced prone.
If they had gear weighing 50 pounds or less (modified by surface/circumstances - see quote), they could crawl 5' as a full round action.
If a specific limb had gear weighing more than 50 pounds on it, they could not move that limb.
They can remove and drop a piece of gear as per normal rules, typically a move of free action, as long as they have limbs able to move in the proper way to accomplish this removal. Some items, like medium/heavy armor, may additionally require being able to stand to remove. An Escape Artist check may be totally appropriate as well.
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