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For the purpose of a game that I'm going to be a part of, I'm going to be rolling a cavalier-charioteer. The campaign takes part with the players as part of a caravan. It's important that my character, as the driver, can fit more than one other character on my thing. A medium chariot isn't big enough to fit the party and a heavy chariot I don't have the animals for unless I want to split my animal companions, which I don't.
For this reason, I came up with the idea of having two vehicles instead of one. A heavy wagon that can carry 4000 lbs. of weight and 10 by 20 squares of space. And a light chariot with 5 by 10 squares of space.
Of the heavy wagon, the front two squares are occupied by the driver, the rest is cargo/passenger space. This is where I'd like to stash my chariot as well as my party members in case we need something to drive us places. And of course the feed for my horse, which is going to be considerable.
However, for this reason, I need to know the weight of my light chariot. I mean, it's a "light" chariot. I presume that the weight does not matter as long as it's on the ground, but on top of another vehicle, it can't be that easy.
The point is; my horse is just one horse. Sure, it's a large quadraped that is dragging. It can drag things up to 2280 lbs as light weights in favourable conditions. But it'll be slowed down if it goes over that threshold.
So, I need some advice on how to calculate the compounded dragging weight capacity of my horse and whether it can pull the wagon with the light chariot still inside.
Query, heavy wagons are pulled by a team of 4 large animals normally, how do you expect your single horse to pull this?
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A light chariot would indeed be quite light compared to a wagon, perhaps as light as 200 to 300 pounds* if it was primarily of wicker construction, rather than solid wood. I expect you could easily load that onto your heavy wagon, as long as you don't imagine riding your chariot off the wagon itself, since you would certainly need a pair of horses to pull it, and they won't be riding *in* your wagon. You'll need to unload it and then harness the chariot to the horses.
However, the idea that a light chariot has one space in front and one behind is ludicrous. Both driver and passenger (if it is indeed a 2-man and not a one-man chariot) would need to ride side-by-side, if only to properly balance their vehicle over the axle.
Note
* The only weight figure I found after a brief online search was 200kg (440#) for a British chariot, a significantly different design from the Egyptian-style chariot one typically pictures. This same article, written by reconstructionists, notes that an Egyptian chariot would have been considerably lighter.
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I always thought a light chariot could be wielded in one hand and used with the Chariot Finesse feat...
I find it odd that Pathfinder has detailed description of every aspect of the chariot including size, speed, acceleration, hardness, HP, etc., but not weight.
Oh well.
I think Wheldrake had the right idea - when you need to know something that actually exists in the real world, Google can tell you what you need.
Or just estimate it. I would have ball-parked it at around 300 pounds off the top of my head. Never used one, but I have lifted wagon wheels and tongues which are probably similar, so it's just a guess about the body of the chariot then add it together. Sounds like it wasn't far off of the value Wheldrake came up with.
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I tried googling it, but sadly, nothing turned up on the weights of chariots. I suspected that you'd probably be able to lift them with two hands over your head. But that's just my instinct from watching how they handle in movies and such. I've never actually had the privilege of weight lifting with them myself. :P
Either way, I suspected that it'd be a glorified wicker-chair on wheels, as you said, Wheldrake. But I don't feel very comfortable ballparking that sort of thing.
I'll suggest the weight to my DM. Thanks, Blake, Wheldrake!
Don't forget that chariots are very fragile. They have no springs or other suspension systems, so anything other than smooth, flat ground is extremely problematic. I'd impose some severe driving rolls over most terrains.
And it'll probably take at least ten minutes to unload the chariot, unhitch the horses and reharness them to the chariot.
It'll obviously have to be acustom job if you've got some strange beast pulling it. But nothing a competent woodworker couldn't handle.
Four medium or one large creature.
Maybe I misunderstood which vehicle you're referring to but:
Wagon
Price varies; Passage varies
This four-wheeled open vehicle is used for transporting heavy loads. It includes the harness needed to pull it. There are three common varieties of wagon.
Light Wagon: Wagons of this type are most commonly employed by farmers and craftsmen transporting their goods short distances or by venders in and around cities. A light wagon carries up to 1,000 pounds of cargo and requires two Medium creatures or one Large creature to pull it.
Medium Wagon: Wagons of this type are typically employed for heavy duty work, often in agricultural, mining, or construction settings. A medium wagon can carry up to 2,000 pounds of cargo and requires four Medium or two Large creatures to pull it.
Heavy Wagon: Wagons of this type are large, four-wheeled vehicles primarily used in caravans to transport goods over long stretches of territory. A heavy wagon carries up to 4,000 pounds of cargo, and is pulled by either eight Medium creatures or four Large creatures.
Anything other than a light wagon requires at least two large creatures to pull. Your horse alone cannot do it.
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Don't forget that chariots are very fragile. They have no springs or other suspension systems, so anything other than smooth, flat ground is extremely problematic. I'd impose some severe driving rolls over most terrains.
And it'll probably take at least ten minutes to unload the chariot, unhitch the horses and reharness them to the chariot.
It'll obviously have to be acustom job if you've got some strange beast pulling it. But nothing a competent woodworker couldn't handle.
It's pulled by a regular horse, so, no worries. :3 And, yeah, it'll take a while, but our campaign takes place on the plains to start. Eventually, that'll change, but that is why I want options in case I need something that is more maneuverable.
And for you, Claxon, the quote that I used from Ultimate Combat.
Wagon, Heavy
Huge land vehicle
Squares 8 (10 ft. by 20 ft.; 5 feet high); Cost 100 gpDefense
AC 9; Hardness 5
hp 120 (59)
Base Save +2Offense
Maximum Speed twice the speed of the pulling creature(s); Acceleration half the speed of the pulling creature(s)
CMB +2; CMD 12
Ramming Damage 2d8Description
This large, four-wheeled vehicle is primarily used in caravans to transport goods over long stretches of territory. These wagons can carry up to 4,000 pounds of cargo.
[u]Propulsion muscle (pulled; 4 Medium creatures or 1 Large creature)[/u]
Well it seems ultimate combat and ultimate equipment are in conflict.
But looking into this it shows exactly the same propulsion requirements for all three types of wagon in Ultimate Combat despite the fact that a light wagon is 10 x 10 and a heavy is 10 x 20 (literally double the size).
I believe it's pretty obvious that Ultimate Combat is in error here.
Also, Ultimate Equipment was published after Ultimate Combat. I know for conflicts with the Bestiary the general precedent was to use the more recent publication.
I see no problem with your general idea of placing a chariot on a larger vehicle to carry your group and the chariot. And only attach the chariot for combat.
However, your mount simply cannot pull a heavy wagon by itself. If you can find a small enough vehicle that still accommodates the size you desire and only requires one horse then you're alright.
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Well it seems ultimate combat and ultimate equipment are in conflict.
But looking into this it shows exactly the same propulsion requirements for all three types of wagon in Ultimate Combat despite the fact that a light wagon is 10 x 10 and a heavy is 10 x 20 (literally double the size).
I believe it's pretty obvious that Ultimate Combat is in error here.
Also, Ultimate Equipment was published after Ultimate Combat. I know for conflicts with the Bestiary the general precedent was to use the more recent publication.
I see no problem with your general idea of placing a chariot on a larger vehicle to carry your group and the chariot. And only attach the chariot for combat.
However, your mount simply cannot pull a heavy wagon by itself. If you can find a small enough vehicle that still accommodates the size you desire and only requires one horse then you're alright.
the second printing of UC still has the error in it. The heavy wagon has the same team of animals the medium wagon does, which is a big giveaway that its wrong.
as an aside, if you have all these wagons, and two chariots, why not just tow one of them, rather than carry it?
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Well it seems ultimate combat and ultimate equipment are in conflict.
But looking into this it shows exactly the same propulsion requirements for all three types of wagon in Ultimate Combat despite the fact that a light wagon is 10 x 10 and a heavy is 10 x 20 (literally double the size).
I believe it's pretty obvious that Ultimate Combat is in error here.
Damn, you're correct.