Spirit of Community (Ex): As a move action, you call upon the spirits of community. For the next round, you grant every ally within 30 feet a +1 competence bonus on a single skill check (of the ally's choice) that it makes before the end of this revelation's duration. Furthermore, allies within 30 feet can, as a free action, choose to forgo this bonus, and instead grant a single ally a +1 increase to its competence bonus granted by this ability (maximum +5). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You must take this revelation at 1st level.
This is from the Community Guardian (Oracle; Halfling) archetype.
I'm playing Jade Regent, so there will be a large caravane - with many "allies" so to speak. I'm thinking gathering them all and calling on the spirit of Community to help the Fortiune Teller before sees into the future would be great fluff wise.
They have to make the check within the round, but does that mean the action is done? -- Could this spell be somehow used for craft checks?
Looking forward to hearing your creative thoughts!
Question was asked in the context of an Oradin (i.e. paladin oracle multiclass for life link and lay on hands) - I'll probably just dip oracle for 3-4 levels. Now while I can think of just enough uses for the +1 to +5 on any skill for 1 round to be worth a revelation, but the one gained at level 3 not so much...
I'm considering un-training the Community guardian archetype before I gain another class feature from it, which would increase the cost and time it would take to do so.
1/day for a really weak buff? Seems weak to me anyway, am I missing something there? Is it worth a revelation? Even if I wasn't multiclassing (and thus the more powerful versions would still happen) this seems sub-par.
Renewing Radiance(Su): Once per day you can produce a burst of swirling white light that provides a measure of protection and renewal to allies within 30 feet for 1 round. On their turn, the allies can choose either to gain a +1 sacred bonus to AC for 1 round or to heal a number of hit points equal to 1d6 + your Charisma bonus (their choice). If an ally is dying, it is stabilized instead. At 7th level, the bonus to AC increases to +2, and the healing increases to 2d6 + your Charisma bonus hit points, and at 14th level the bonus to AC increases to +3, and the healing increases to 3d6 + your Charisma bonus hit points. You must take this revelation at 3rd level.
It only lasts 1 round and it's on their turn that they get a bonus, so the AC bonus doesn't even help someone who's initiative roll was low; the healing is minor and if it's enough to get a guy from minus to small positives... it still just stabilizes them instead. Just healing would have stabilized, too, right? Guess the theme here is "hold on" rather than "get up we need you" kind of community... hm.
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Using Spirit of Community does not work for Crafting since that is a check over a long period of time.
If many are crossing a difficult place where you need to balance (i.e. Acrobatics check), this would help a lot of people, and those who don't need the help can shift it to those who do. Same for a swim check across a fast flowing stream.
If you plan ahead, you can use the masses to pump up some of your number with +5. Useful for Perception, Knowledge, and some other checks.
Renewing Radiance looks like a weak Channel, until you consider it can be traded for AC. Still kind of weak, but not too bad.
/cevah
I just came back to this thread (and saw your answer) to add Knowledge to the list... Awesome thing about is that I don't have to be the one with the knowledge. If each of us specializes on different knowledges with a +5 we can give one another we can cover a good range...
Our Halfling Rogue isn't too good at sniping yet (due to the incredible penalty to it) - but a +5 can seriously help there.
Acrobatic to balance or to do one crazy act, like get past 3 guys without taking AoO.
I considered sneaking, but that would eat a lot of uses, as it's mostly more than a 1 round effort. - Swim was a great idea!
Climb could be good, when you really need someone to get up some place.
Disguise, if only one of you has to be hidden. "These are not the droids you're looking for". :D
Would Diplomacy work? Probably no, cause 1 min action, right?
But intimidate would...
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Just went through it again. Intimidate to change their opinion of you also takes a minute... damn. So I went through all the skills and made a chart. Here's the results (since I don't know how to post charts here):
Always works for perception / appraise / Use Magic Device / All knowledges (not when using library) / acrobatics/climb/fly/ride/swim / stealth / slight of hand.
Mostly works for bluff (simple lies, feinting, creating diversion to hide) / Escape artist (except manacles/rope) / Disable Device (Open (any) Locks, disable simple other devices) / Handle Animal (Push and handle).
Also works on Diplomacy when making simple Requests / Intimidate when demoralizing opponents / Heal when used for First Aid or Treating Poison / Spellcraft when used to identify spells in Combat / Survival to find tracks and avoid getting lost.
Can work on Disguise, when used with Spell to speed it up / Perform when there's a bard with versitile performance / Profession for answering questions related to one's background.
So to sum it up: all the physicals work. UMD and Knowledge work, and the one's you'd expect (i.e. which normally take up to a full round to use). I was surprised by simple lies and simple requests being one round actions. So you could lie to get out of the hostile mode and then request to stop fighting so you can prove to them, that you're on their side.
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Here's the table Link
My GM and I just talked for a whole while trying to figure out how exactly Spirit of Community is even used... took a while.
When you use it out of combat it's easy, as all actions happen at the same time. Your move to activate, each decide whether they want a +1 or pass it on, then standard or fullround (relatively meaningless out of initiative, but not always) and then act with the bonus. So it can be activated and used to maximum efficiency within 6 seconds.
In combat, since handing off the bonus is a free action (not immediate), the activating user (or anyone else going shortly after him) can only get +5 bonus if it works all the way into the next round. Duration specifically says "for the next round", but English being our second language it was hard to understand whether that also allows you to use it in the frist round.
Eventually we decided yes, because everything else would be strange too (i.e. I activate community, but while you can hand that +1 bonus along, you can't actually use it yet... it's not really active, just... summoned... aehm)
So our understanding is it works like this:
Initiative: S=Shargok, N=Nigel (has this ability), L=Lembo, P=Peritte.
S does something. N activates this, and decides not to use the +1 bonus himself (yet). L has the "offer" of +2 from it, but decides not to use it. P is offered +3, but doesn't take it. Shargok now is the first to be able to take the +4, but if he doesn't take it others would be able to for the rest of the round (so that they too would have a chance to be the focus of the energy for maximal efficiency, as it would be out of combat).
Does anyone else see it differently?
Also you could house-rule it to be an immediate instead of free action (so that you get the same effect as outside of initiative, where it takes 6 seconds to activate and use, with everyone taking free actions at the same time) - but that would be a power increase over the ability as written.
Are we getting it right? How would you rule it to work?
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Free actions must occur in your own round. Therefore, the choice to forgo the benefit must happen on your turn. You have one chance to use it. In combat, the next in initiative cannot gain more than +2 (spirit giver & self) unless they ready an action or delay their turn. [Both will change their place in initiative order.]
Speaking can occur at any time. You can discuss what you will do.
When you choose to forgo, you select one ally to get your bonus. If you are given a bonus from someone else, I think that RAW, you cannot pass it on since it is not the bonus granted by the one with the spirit giver, but rather a second-hand recipient. Note that it talks about passing "this bonus" before it mentions the "grant" ability. RAI, I would ignore this.
As for the spirit giver, if he does a standard then a move-to-activate, I would say he gets the bonus for anything up to and including his next standard/full-round. If he does a move-to-activate then a standard, I would say he can use it up to but not including his next turn. Reasoning: He should be able to add to his own next check, which will likely be a standard action.
Out of combat, initiative is not defined, so all allies electing to "pass" can do so before any who "accept", so no issue here.
/cevah
Free actions must occur in your own round. Therefore, the choice to forgo the benefit must happen on your turn. You have one chance to use it. In combat, the next in initiative cannot gain more than +2 (spirit giver & self) unless they ready an action or delay their turn. [Both will change their place in initiative order.]
Speaking can occur at any time. You can discuss what you will do.
When you choose to forgo, you select one ally to get your bonus. If you are given a bonus from someone else, I think that RAW, you cannot pass it on since it is not the bonus granted by the one with the spirit giver, but rather a second-hand recipient. Note that it talks about passing "this bonus" before it mentions the "grant" ability. RAI, I would ignore this.
As for the spirit giver, if he does a standard then a move-to-activate, I would say he gets the bonus for anything up to and including his next standard/full-round. If he does a move-to-activate then a standard, I would say he can use it up to but not including his next turn. Reasoning: He should be able to add to his own next check, which will likely be a standard action.
Out of combat, initiative is not defined, so all allies electing to "pass" can do so before any who "accept", so no issue here.
/cevah
I didn't consider delaying, yes that actually does account for all the possibilities of out of combat aid, especially when combined with allowing the user to help himself in the next round.
We were trying to eliminate that inconsitency. Our solution then is a mild buff versus as written, right?
And as immediate action would be a bigger buff.
If you wanted to buff it even further you could make the bonus by concentration (everyone involved pay a move action to maintain the bonus) so that it could apply to skill checks like craft, as long as everyone is into it. And making it a move allows them to aid another as well if they can.
Now if you have 5 helpful halflings working on something they can actually cooperate with (where all the reasonably aid stacks) that's +20, +5 from the move-maintained community spirit, the skill-checking person taking 10, and plus their skill bonuses, so 35+skill bonus.
This is totally going to be a setting detail for some factory somewhere, next time I run an original story... :D
I might make the upgrades to the ability an option to take at level 3 instead of that pseudo channel.
Anyway, thanks for explaining how it's supposed to work. :)
Your initiative order example had some getting a choice to use it twice. This is not how it works. Using this form is a significant buff.
Your immediate action example also fails, because there is only one who can do free actions, and that is the one whose initiative it is. Using this form is a major buff, since your illegal free actions can all forward your bonus to the one who needs that immediate bit of help.
The Helpful Halflings giving +20 is fine. The +5 is a few times a day for a round each. The Take-10 may or may not be allowed, depending on the situation. Using this for a factory falls down, since the checks you are likely to do in a factory are not likely to be the kind that take a single round. Look to other ways, like Crafter's Fortune which lasts a day per level and give +5 on Craft() skills. Craft() is much more likely to be used in a factory. Additionally, unless you need to hit a high DC, I think you will make more if the halflings use their own skill to craft. See the Downtime Rules.
/cevah
By buff I did mean beyond what is meant to happen.
I doubt getting the choice twice in 2 rounds is going to matter much, compared to the negative consequences of delaying, just leads to more usability of the ability, so I think I'm okay with this.
Immediate obviously would be a huge buff, because then you could activate it and instantly get +5 on anything you want to do with your standard. -- Note though that this isn't a failing "immediate action example" but rather would be a house-ruled buff to the ability, and if you read carefully something I suggested only adding at a cost (i.e. a revelation to upgrade the ability perhaps). Same goes for the "bonus by concentration" - by "if you wanted" I really meant if the GM allows/wants.
So imagine low skill halflings (+9 bonus at the most, because that's all you need for aid another) working on items with incredibly high DC, where only the main crafter can make good use of it. -- I guess though, there'd only be 4 helpful halflings and one halfling opportunist (who gets more bonus out of being helped, with the Fate's Favored trait to get another +1 out of Crafter's Fortune - thanks for pointing that one out). Maybe they're working with a trap (automatic reset) that casts Crafter's Fortune (1*1*500=500 gp + trap cost)... maybe the helpful halflings all have +4 bonus without the spell, and the opportunist as much as possible. Going quite off topic here, but I'm liking the direction :D
4x helpful halfling, so 1d20+4(class, 1 rank)+5(spell) >= 10 (aid another) - so auto-successs.
1x something x / Opportunist 5 gets (+16)+3 from aid another (is that total, or per helper?), +10 from ranks, +3 from class, +5 from spirit of the community, +6 from spell, +10 from take 10
Does +53 (can be boosted further by use of magical items) seem right? What could they be producing that's worth that much effort?
Also with the Fabricate spell they need to make the check, but it doesn't take more than a round, so they could do it even without house-ruling the duration to be by concentration. - 20th caster-level (for maxiumum amount of material that can be affected per casting) as a trap is 50 000gp plus crafting cost of material components*100, so 150 000 gp total as example if you want to be cranking out 3000 gp items all day long.
Except now of course the limit becomes the number of times Spirit of Community can be used per day. Lesser Ring of Revelation (Spirit of Community) that is passed around among low level oracles might work to a degree... for another 10 000 k. - Can't quite think of anything that would make it worth the trouble... Mass producing exotic armor and nice weapons for the deamons you're about to let onto the material plane?
What if instead of crafting, it was a Knowledge factory!
The 4 helpers all have a role to play in relaxing the opportunistic Brain, a few massage him, one humms a memory stimulating "oooooommmmmm" and one perpares the smoke/tea ritual such that everything is well in sync. All aid another +4 and free action to hand the spirit of the community bonus along and the Brain Knows. Maybe he has the Psychic Searcher archetype with extra revelation feats for amazing inspiration (roll d8 inspiration dice instead of d6), eidetic recollection (take 10 or take 20 if he really cares a few times per day) and tenacious inspiration (roll inspiration dice twice, keep higher), throw on empathy for good measure (knowing exactly what he is asked and why, so he can decide whether or not to answer).
So when he cares 20+highest of two d8's+19(aid)+ranks and class and such... Knowledge DCs are 20 to 30 (for really tough questions), so with 40+ (much more if you add magic items and things) he should be able to know secrets of the universe itself, right? Due to their in-tune-ness... make all the helpers community guardians so they can take turns giving that bonus. Answer questions all day long, for the powerful but not allknowing forces of the universe. :)
Anyway, enough procrastination of school work for now. ;)
Immediate obviously would be a huge buff, because then you could activate it and instantly get +5 on anything you want to do with your standard. -- Note though that this isn't a failing "immediate action example" but rather would be a house-ruled buff to the ability, and if you read carefully something I suggested only adding at a cost (i.e. a revelation to upgrade the ability perhaps). Same goes for the "bonus by concentration" - by "if you wanted" I really meant if the GM allows/wants.
It is a failing, since you only changed the effect to be immediate. To work as you say, you also have to add in the free action on the recipients to bounce the effect to the needed one. Normally, that cannot be done until their turn.
/cevah
Immediate obviously would be a huge buff, because then you could activate it and instantly get +5 on anything you want to do with your standard. -- Note though that this isn't a failing "immediate action example" but rather would be a house-ruled buff to the ability, and if you read carefully something I suggested only adding at a cost (i.e. a revelation to upgrade the ability perhaps). Same goes for the "bonus by concentration" - by "if you wanted" I really meant if the GM allows/wants.It is a failing, since you only changed the effect to be immediate. To work as you say, you also have to add in the free action on the recipients to bounce the effect to the needed one. Normally, that cannot be done until their turn.
/cevah
Sorry for imprecise wording. I meant to only change the time to switch the bonus around be an immediate (or free if it's your turn) and the effect time to work as it does now (i.e. anytime between activating it and the start of the activators next turn).
Thanks for correcting it.