Question about Half-Elf / Half-Orc Racial FAQ


Pathfinder Society

2/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hello Pathfinder Society people,

I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere, but in my preliminary research I haven't found anything conclusive either way. I'm aware that some time back this FAQ was posted, which reads:

FAQ Text wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial favored class options?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ, another APG FAQ, and a Core Rulebook FAQ.

tl;dr:
Does the "so on" include feats? For example, could a Half-Orc take Defiant Luck in PFS?

Now, I'm already happily using the primary option listed here (selecting the human FCB) on my Half-Orc Fighter in PFS. Previously I had thought I'd retire him at 12th, as he wouldn't be able to keep up in Seeker-level scenarios, but I'm seeing some options to increase his martial prowess and his durability at 12+ that might let me keep playing him (which is good, since he's currently my favorite character despite my love of primary spellcasters, but I digress).

My question is, does the "so on" include feats? For example, could a Half-Orc take Defiant Luck in PFS? I am playing a Diehard-themed character, complete with an Aegis of Recovery, a Ring of Ferocious action to ignore the staggered condition, etc. He just picked up Shield Other and has never come closer to actually getting to use his Diehard feat. Except for that one time he was grappled by a lava monster.

Anyway! I'd like to be able to add in some of the options that increase his resiliency in terms of saves (beyond his half-orc luck bonuses to saves), but a lot of these good options are Human feats. He has some CHA (very dumb, but a decent WIS and CHA) but as a Kuthite cannot go Paladin or anything like that to increase his saves.

Is this an option that I can take, or is it the campaign leadership's view that "so on" shouldn't include feats or anything else? If so, what does "so on" actually entail?

Thanks in advance!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Defiant Luck is not a valid option for PFS Half-orcs, but for different reasons than what you think.

There is a "race restriction" clause in the Additional Resources document for the ARG (and at least one other book) that limits racial feats to those races only.

Since Defiant Luck is from the ARG, it's one of those restricted.

Racial feats from most other sources are not restricted as such.

2/5

Does that mean I can use other feats that require a human or orc race (well, just human in this case, since orc stuff is not legal in PFS) with my half-orc, though?

For example, if I was a Half-Orc Wizard instead of a Half-Orc Fighter, and I wanted to make Gnomish illusions. Could I take Racial Heritage (Gnome), which is from the APG not the ARG, and Effortless Trickery since that also isn't in the ARG?

Thanks!

EDIT: And if I can take Racial Heritage on a Half-Orc Fighter, since this is a general discussion threads in addition to rules, any recommendations on cool racial abilities that are legal to pick up?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Your character is going to have some interesting family reunions.

2/5

Hey, my first Pathfinder character was a Human Alchemist who was adopted by gnomes (with the racial trait). I didn't have any mechanical reason for it, I just thought having gnomish parents made for a cool backstory for a Human alchemist.

Plus the Obsessive gnome trait to give +2 to alchemy (easily duplicated elsewhere!) has hilarious drawbacks, like keeping a small collection of weird objects on your person at all times.

I'm sure there are many happy Golarion families with adopted children who become adventurers, haha.

EDIT: Also a running personal joke with this character is him hinting at a bunch of very, very strange stuff that may or may not have happened in his history. So taking Racial Heritage for an amusing race could be apropos.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Just refer to the Additional Resources document.

To my knowledge, only the Advanced Race Guide and Goblins of Golarion have such limiting language.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Nefreet wrote:

Just refer to the Additional Resources document.

To my knowledge, only the Advanced Race Guide and Goblins of Golarion have such limiting language.

I believe Blood of Elements was included in this in a message board post that I can't seem to find at the moment.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Exguardi wrote:

Hey, my first Pathfinder character was a Human Alchemist who was adopted by gnomes (with the racial trait). I didn't have any mechanical reason for it, I just thought having gnomish parents made for a cool backstory for a Human alchemist.

Plus the Obsessive gnome trait to give +2 to alchemy (easily duplicated elsewhere!) has hilarious drawbacks, like keeping a small collection of weird objects on your person at all times.

Is that a trait with the type of (race) or a racial trait? You can be adopted into a trait trait but not a racial trait. (thwaps paizo with a thesaurus)

There's a businessman gnome trait that does that, but adopted can't get you

Obsessive: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice.

2/5

Hey, man, I don't know, it was my first game of Pathfinder. I took the Vestigial Arms discovery twice because I thought it would look cool, paid no attention to my stats at all because I read how bombs works, went "this touch AC thing seems swell!" and then got my GM to okay me making a day's progress on crafting potions if I used my bottom two arms to continually brew potions while dungeon-delving, no matter what was going on, because science.

But I digress. I'm aware (now, thank you) that you can't take feats from the Advanced Race Guide without actually being the race. But that doesn't quite answer my original question, which was "can half-orcs take Human racial feats which are not from the ARG? Not just Racial Heritage, anything else that happened to exist.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Exguardi wrote:
Hey, man, I don't know, it was my first game of Pathfinder.

Chuckle. No biggie. Thats why i whapped paizo with a thesaurus, not you. That confuses the heck out of everyone.

The good news is that level 1 characters are infinitely chanable until they're played at level 2. So you should have 3 or so games to "kick the tires" a bit.

Quote:
Quote:
I took the Vestigial Arms discovery twice because I thought it would look cool, paid no attention to my stats at all because I read how bombs works, went "this touch AC thing seems swell!" and then got my GM to okay me making a day's progress on crafting potions if I used my bottom two arms to continually brew potions while dungeon-delving, no matter what was going on, because science.

Are you sure this was a pathfinder society game? There's pathfinder society which is the organized play for the pathfinder role playing game. Pathfinder Society doesn't let you cract.

Quote:
But I digress. I'm aware (now, thank you) that you can't take feats from the Advanced Race Guide without actually being the race. But that doesn't quite answer my original question, which was "can half-orcs take Human racial feats which are not from the ARG? Not just Racial Heritage, anything else that happened to exist.

Normally yes, a half orc qualifies as a human for most things.

2/5

Ah, I see the confusion. No, this was not for Pathfinder Society, I mistook your meaning (now that my buddies and I know more about Pathfinder we usually use PFS as a banning guideline). My first Pathfinder Society alchemist I retrained entirely out of alchemist at level 2 because I wanted to try something different, but he was a Bramble Brewer Alchemist with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Net.

The game plan was to go through life trying to entangle the widest imaginable area while selecting out my allies' squares and giving them Infusions to ignore difficult terrain.

Actually does all that still work? I might consider it... I can never have too many alchemists. Are there things alchemists can actually do to people once they've got them pinned in one location? I mean, bombs, obviously, but the bombs in this build are for entangling people, so...

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Ah. That explains the confusion.

I answered the question you were asking, but in the context of the rules and exceptions of Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

If this isn't for PFS, your only limitations are your GM and your imagination.

2/5

Then there's still confusion. I asked if in the context of PFS play I can take Human-only feats as a half-orc based on that FAQ. You replied with the restrictions on the ARG, and the fact that you can otherwise take racial feats.

Cool! Still not clear on if AS A HALF-ORC in PFS play I can or cannot take Human-only feats that are not in the ARG based on the linked ruling.

I'll repeat, the question is: based on the half-orc/half-elf ruling can I take Human feats in PFS play or am I limited to FCBs, archetypes, and traits? What does "so on" entail?

Silver Crusade Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs

In PFS you cannot take Defiant Luck as a half-orc any more then you could take Grudge Fighter.

Yes you are half-human and half-orc, but in pfs play you must be a full member of the race to take racial feats from the Advance Race Guide.

Edit: ok bad example as nothing from Orc is available....

Change Grudge Fighter to Attuned to the Wild and all mentions of orc with elf. Half-orcs (and elves) have their own racial feats.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Exguardi wrote:

Then there's still confusion. I asked if in the context of PFS play I can take Human-only feats as a half-orc based on that FAQ. You replied with the restrictions on the ARG, and the fact that you can otherwise take racial feats.

Cool! Still not clear on if AS A HALF-ORC in PFS play I can or cannot take Human-only feats that are not in the ARG based on the linked ruling.

I'll repeat, the question is: based on the half-orc/half-elf ruling can I take Human feats in PFS play or am I limited to FCBs, archetypes, and traits? What does "so on" entail?

If they come from a source other than the ARG, that does not have the same restriction as the ARG in the Additional Resources, then you can select Human Feats with a half-orc/elf.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Exguardi wrote:
Still not clear

PFS abides by the Pathfinder ruleset, including all official errata or FAQs. Beyond that, there are a few PFS-specific documents that focus more narrowly on some rules elements. It's a concept we call "specific trumps general".

You've read the FAQ on Half-orcs and Half-elves. Consider that to be the "general rule" regarding those 2 races.

Your next step would be to check the Additional Resources document I linked earlier, as well as the PFS FAQ, and the Guide to Organized Play, to see if there are any "specific rules" that trump the general Pathfinder rules.

One such specific rule, that I've mentioned at least twice now, is the "race restriction" clause of the ARG (and a couple other books), found in the Additional Resources document. As many people now have told you, your Half-orc is limited in the content he or she can choose from that source.

If you have a question about a different source, follow these steps:

- Check Pathfinder general rules
- Check PFS-specific exceptions
- Lather, rinse, repeat as needed

It really is that simple. No additional hidden strings. Just take what we're saying at face value, and you're good to go.

2/5

Nefreet wrote:
PFS abides by the Pathfinder ruleset, including all official errata or FAQs. Beyond that, there are a few PFS-specific documents that focus more narrowly on some rules elements. It's a concept we call "specific trumps general".

I understand this. Here is what I am unclear on. This FAQ that I referenced is from the Advanced Player's Guide, not the Advanced Race Guide. This FAQ does NOT say that half-orcs and half-elves are allowed to take feats from their parent races. It says "favored class bonuses, archetypes, traits, and so on." I'm aware that in a home game "so on" would obviously include feats unless the GM explicitly says otherwise, but in the context of PFS play I have had issues in the past with any ruling that did not use INCREDIBLY specific language.

I'm aware that PFS has restrictions on ARG content that the normal PFRPG does not have, but that isn't my concern here. My concern is making absolutely clear that this ruling allows half-orcs/elves to take feats from their parent classes. If PFS then puts an ARG-specific restriction on this, cool beans, that's fine, as long as my original question is answered.

It sounds as though the consensus on this topic is "yes, you can take feats as a half-orc, not just FCBs, archetypes, and traits" which I'm totally happy with. I just want to be very clear on that because the FAQ itself is NOT clear on that, as it does not use the word "feat" at all.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Exguardi wrote:
I understand this. Here is what I am unclear on. This FAQ that I referenced is from the Advanced Player's Guide, not the Advanced Race Guide. This FAQ does NOT say that half-orcs and half-elves are allowed to take feats from their parent races. It says "favored class bonuses, archetypes, traits, and so on." I'm aware that in a home game "so on" would obviously include feats unless the GM explicitly says otherwise, but in the context of PFS play I have had issues in the past with any ruling that did not use INCREDIBLY specific language.

I believe the faq amounts to "You count as human" , which would let you extent the so forth pretty much into infinity.

2/5

Great! I shall happily proceed forward under this assumption, then.

Zon-Kuthon knows, my poor Half-Orc's taken enough damage from Favored Enemy: Human, will be nice to get something positive out of his pretty half.

Grand Lodge

Exguardi wrote:

Hey, my first Pathfinder character was a Human Alchemist who was adopted by gnomes (with the racial trait). I didn't have any mechanical reason for it, I just thought having gnomish parents made for a cool backstory for a Human alchemist.

Plus the Obsessive gnome trait to give +2 to alchemy (easily duplicated elsewhere!) has hilarious drawbacks, like keeping a small collection of weird objects on your person at all times.

I'm sure there are many happy Golarion families with adopted children who become adventurers, haha.

EDIT: Also a running personal joke with this character is him hinting at a bunch of very, very strange stuff that may or may not have happened in his history. So taking Racial Heritage for an amusing race could be apropos.

This made me think very strongly of Elf starring Will Ferrell

Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Question about Half-Elf / Half-Orc Racial FAQ All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Society