One from La Principessa:
The latter.
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*Sees thread*
To Self: "Hm. I actually heard the movie was better than the book, and even a bit less sexist. Maybe I'll post here and say people should probably chill out and focus their hate on the crappy novel, rather than on the movie that at least tried to give the FMC some agency. I mean, really, it sounds like the movie's main crime is just failing to make things entertaining for us haters by being crappy in a boring way. Wait. I'm getting ahead of myself. I should read some of the thread first, just to make sure I'm not repeating what anyone else—"
race
OOOOHHHohohohoh I do not get paid enough nope nope nope
For fun, an article by Chris Hedges where he recycles the Andrea Dworkin/Gail Dines party line: ‘Pornography Is What the End of the World Looks Like’
La Principessa sent it to me and asked me what I thought. I said, "Well, I can't say I'm an expert, but most of the porn I've watched doesn't include women saying 'I am a c$%~/I am a whore/I am a slut' and as for 'F&+# me harder with your big c+#*' well, I don't need to watch porn to hear that."
I could hear her blushing from three states away.
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*Sees thread*
To Self: "Hm. I actually heard the movie was better than the book, and even a bit less sexist. Maybe I'll post here and say people should probably chill out and focus their hate on the crappy novel, rather than on the movie that at least tried to give the FMC some agency. I mean, really, it sounds like the movie's main crime is just failing to make things entertaining for us haters by being crappy in a boring way. Wait. I'm getting ahead of myself. I should read some of the thread first, just to make sure I'm not repeating what anyone else—"raceOOOOHHHohohohoh I do not get paid enough nope nope nope
ROTFLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Except it is a fantasy, so YOU DON'T HAVE TO GIVE THOSE THINGS UP. And really, how is this different from a million other things marketed at women?
I didn't think the series was marketed towards anyone other than the curious and uninformed.
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Exactly. I am so glad you understood my point, Terquem. Fantasies are a safe way to handle breaking the limits we live within. They are not something we should be bothered by. Anastasia gets given a wealthy lifestyle in a wonky relationship, far from having earned it herself. As fantasies go, it's far from the worst I have seen. Now, if you don't like it, it did not work for you. To me, it's a stupid plot and bad writing that makes me stay away.
And if we do criticize other people's fantasies, how about these?
It is unrealistic!
It is violent!
It gives questionable moral guidance!
It distracts people from the real world!
It is racist!
And of course,
it encourages pursuits of unattainable goals!
If those are reasons that something is bad, then let's scrap every kind of speculative fiction ever. All are criticisms that have been leveled at fantasy, SF and related fields since day one.
Yes, it IS a fantasy. And that is not by itself a problem.
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"Fantasy" is both a genre and a word on its own referring to impossibilities or falsehoods, so...yes.
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The problem is fantasy is not always seen as such. And I'm not sure that viewing or reading works of fiction has no deleterious effects on a person. I mean, we all know fiction can have huge positive effects on a person. Why would we be immune from the opposite?
The problem is fantasy is not always seen as such. And I'm not sure that viewing or reading works of fiction has no deleterious effects on a person. I mean, we all know fiction can have huge positive effects on a person. Why would we be immune from the opposite?
Because it is a reflective process, and one with no aspirations to reality to boot. We grow from it, we stretch our imaginatory muscles, we taste the things we read about. This is a good thing. It's once you get to works with aspirations of reality and toxic messages (the bible, the quran, dianetics, various political propaganda) that things can get dangerous.
It's like Sissyl said. All creative works are capable of doing is introducing ideas to us. How we handle those ideas comes down to our own issues. People who can't handle fantasy and avoid exposure to it will instead go nuts over politics or sports.
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I'd object less if the author took any responsibility for her damned book. She claims it saves marriages, but ignores anyone who mentions it does anything negative, like trigger abuse survivors or show young men women that abuse and romance are totally the same thing. Or, of course, show people the absolute worse way to do BDSM so people get injured.
And of course it's saved some marriages. Abusive people often don't want there partners to leave, and so showing them it's totally romantic to stalk, mentally and sexually abuse and such is just dandy so far as they're concerned.
Argh, hate these damned books so damned much.
As for the actual topic, it's a weird rating for the UK. I've seen movies with a lot more sex with a lower rating, so I'm guessing it's the BDSM elements that are causing it. I'd like to think it's just they're horrible movies and we need to protect the young from them, but...
I'd object less if the author took any responsibility for her damned book. She claims it saves marriages, but ignores anyone who mentions it does anything negative, like trigger abuse survivors or show young men women that abuse and romance are totally the same thing. Or, of course, show people the absolute worse way to do BDSM so people get injured.
And of course it's saved some marriages. Abusive people often don't want there partners to leave, and so showing them it's totally romantic to stalk, mentally and sexually abuse and such is just dandy so far as they're concerned.
Argh, hate these damned books so damned much.
As for the actual topic, it's a weird rating for the UK. I've seen movies with a lot more sex with a lower rating, so I'm guessing it's the BDSM elements that are causing it. I'd like to think it's just they're horrible movies and we need to protect the young from them, but...
Ugh. These books glorify the hell out of a straight up abusive relationship. I enjoy some light BDSM, and have many friends who get far more into it and are extremely active in the community and very happy. Being in a consenting, sane relationship is not abuse, the relationship depicted in the books is. It is emotional, verbal and at one or two points straight physical abuse, which is being romanticized. I hate these g+&~*#n books.
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I'd object less if the author took any responsibility for her damned book. She claims it saves marriages, but ignores anyone who mentions it does anything negative, like trigger abuse survivors or show young men women that abuse and romance are totally the same thing. Or, of course, show people the absolute worse way to do BDSM so people get injured.
And of course it's saved some marriages. Abusive people often don't want there partners to leave, and so showing them it's totally romantic to stalk, mentally and sexually abuse and such is just dandy so far as they're concerned.
Argh, hate these damned books so damned much.
As for the actual topic, it's a weird rating for the UK. I've seen movies with a lot more sex with a lower rating, so I'm guessing it's the BDSM elements that are causing it. I'd like to think it's just they're horrible movies and we need to protect the young from them, but...
Do you have any actual hard data on any of this? Or is this one of the "Violent video games teach young people that shooting people is good" things?
Some people here sound way too much like the folks who say video games cause violence or murderous tendencies.
There's been research done that has disproven those theories. Why are people getting worked up about this movie then?
It's clearly meant to be an escapist fantasy (as others have also pointed out), not an educational film about relationships or BDSM.
Some people here sound way too much like the folks who say video games cause violence or murderous tendencies.
There's been research done that has disproven those theories.
Actually, it's far more complicated than that:
A burst of new research has begun to clarify what can and cannot be said about the effects of violent gaming. Playing the games can and does stir hostile urges and mildly aggressive behavior in the short term. Moreover, youngsters who develop a gaming habit can become slightly more aggressive — as measured by clashes with peers, for instance — at least over a period of a year or two.
Yet it is not at all clear whether, over longer periods, such a habit increases the likelihood that a person will commit a violent crime, like murder, rape, or assault, much less a Newtown-like massacre. (Such calculated rampages are too rare to study in any rigorous way, researchers agree.)
Media does not leave us completely unscathed.
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Part of the problem is the noticeable spike of people accidentally injuring themselves or their loved one emulating the absolutely awful idea of BDSM in that book.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/10/sex-toy-injuries -surged-after-fifty-shades-of-grey-was-published/
Some people here sound way too much like the folks who say video games cause violence or murderous tendencies.
There's been research done that has disproven those theories.
Actually, it's far more complicated than that:
Media does not leave us completely unscathed.A burst of new research has begun to clarify what can and cannot be said about the effects of violent gaming. Playing the games can and does stir hostile urges and mildly aggressive behavior in the short term. Moreover, youngsters who develop a gaming habit can become slightly more aggressive — as measured by clashes with peers, for instance — at least over a period of a year or two.
Yet it is not at all clear whether, over longer periods, such a habit increases the likelihood that a person will commit a violent crime, like murder, rape, or assault, much less a Newtown-like massacre. (Such calculated rampages are too rare to study in any rigorous way, researchers agree.)
If that was true, then I would have murdered at least three people by now. I remain skeptical at best.
Sure, they can leave a mark, but mere marks do not make a monster. I think it takes more to push a person over the edge.
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Honestly I think media does have a decent amount of influence over us, even if it is only by introducing ideas to us and making us curious. I don't think that it is necessarily a bad thing though.
Speaking from personal experience this wacky video is what led me to accept a friend's long standing invitation to her BDSM parties.
Before I had turned her down out of disinterest, but then I got curious.
Another silly thing I noticed about media influencing me is that back when I first played the Grand Theft Auto series if I drove immediately after playing I would often speed a bit, which is out of character for me, and I realized it was because I was so bored with the long driving sections of the game that when I had to then get somewhere in real life after I just wanted to get there quickly lol.
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I heard that the book and movie leaves out a very important part of healthy dom/ sub relationships. Aftercare. This bothers me. I wonder how many people reading the book or seeing the movie will try this stuff without any kind of aftercare and get eemotionally scarred.
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I don't have a problem with the books or the movie's kink and sex parts. It is fine. What I have a problem with is outside of that...it is a story about a dude who is using mental and verbal abuse to reduce his girlfriend's mental image of herself into her being nothing but his property to do with as he pleases, not just in a sexual manner. He is imposing martial law over her entirety. If you replaced the BDSM elements with straight up beatings, punching, yelling and such you would see better the controlling abuse and mental breaking down of the victim until she has no self-worth and is nothing without her man.
Why women see this as a sexual awakening film is beyond me. I like BDSM, participated in some cool stuff and have no issues with such but is there really a large population of women in the world that want to lose all self worth and be nothing but a meat-puppet for some spoiled brat to play with? I don't think so. I think some are interested in the BDSM parts and purposely blinding themselves to the mental and verbal abuse that goes beyond the bedroom games.
As far as the popularity of FSoG goes, its all about timing, i doubt it would get this amount of press and box office receipts facing off against Jurassic World in July. but when its February and your choices are Spongebob or Bondage, most adults without kids will choose the latter if only to avoid the former:-)
FYI: the new Spongebob movie is awesome:-)
So glorifying an abusive relationship isn't harmful? That's... Really thoughtless don't you think. I know a lot of teens and twentysomethings who don't know what a healthy relationship looks like. Saying "this is what you want" is not healthy In this case.
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So glorifying an abusive relationship isn't harmful? That's... Really thoughtless don't you think. I know a lot of teens and twentysomethings who don't know what a healthy relationship looks like. Saying "this is what you want" is not healthy In this case.
To a lesser extent that is a criticism that can be leveled against most portrayals of relationships in media though. Drama free healthy relationships don't make for good entertainment.
Hopefully younger people are mapping their healthy relationships off of real people around them, like their parents or older peers. If they don't have that in their life at all a positive media representation prolly isn't going to help much anymore than a negative one will hurt.
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Some people here sound way too much like the folks who say video games cause violence or murderous tendencies.
There's been research done that has disproven those theories.
Correct. This research also shows that while the media cannot cause behavior, it does cause us to regard that behavior as more "normal". This is the same reason media that displays diversity is so valuable, especially for kids.
This is likely what people are worried about—a book that acts like an unhealthy relationship is "healthy" could give some readers a warped perspective on what is considered healthy.
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There's a difference between entertainment In watching something negative and that negative being treated as something to want and aspire to. Negative relationships are all over media but are most often called out as negative. Fifty shades attempts to pass off stalking, abuse and (in the book, no knowledge of the movie) at one point a literal rape as a relationship every woman should want. I quite honestly find that not just discomforting but frightening. Not because its there, there's always some media claiming up is down and wrong is right, but because so many women and girls seem to agree. That's damn terrifying.
Some people here sound way too much like the folks who say video games cause violence or murderous tendencies.
There's been research done that has disproven those theories.
Correct. This research also shows that while the media cannot cause behavior, it does cause us to regard that behavior as more "normal". This is the same reason media that displays diversity is so valuable, especially for kids.
This is likely what people are worried about—a book that acts like an unhealthy relationship is "healthy" could give some readers a warped perspective on what is considered healthy.
Kobold Cleaver and theJeff, making my points better than I could have myself.
honestly i had never even heard of the book until a week before the movie was released:-D
i am a little curious what it has to do with Vampires? (wait, Twilight are at least tangentially Vampire books and movies right?)
any way both the movie and book sound positively dreadful:-)
To a lesser extent that is a criticism that can be leveled against most portrayals of relationships in media though. Drama free healthy relationships don't make for good entertainment.
Hopefully younger people are mapping their healthy relationships off of real people around them, like their parents or older peers. If they don't have that in their life at all a positive media representation prolly isn't going to help much anymore than a negative one will hurt.
There's nothing wrong with portraying bad relationships. It's the "glorifying an abusive relationship" part that's problematic.
Sure, but that's nothing new. Media has always glorified s$&!ty relationships, remember Romeo and Juliet? That's talked about like one of the greatest romances of all time and it's about a pair of dumb ass kids that barely know each other killing themselves. I wish that a&+&%@& Shakespeare would stop glorifying this s+#@.
But anyway, I agree that it can help set the default for expectations on what is considered acceptable and desireworthy, which isn't good, but once again hopefully they have some positive real life influences that are more present, parents, peers and the like.
honestly i had never even heard of the book until a week before the movie was released:-D
i am a little curious what it has to do with Vampires? (wait, Twilight are at least tangentially Vampire books and movies right?)
any way both the movie and book sound positively dreadful:-)
Consider thyself lucky.
The book began as an awful twilight fan-fiction. That's not a joke its simple truth. Eventually it got popular enough that E L James changed the names from Edward Cullen and Bella Swan to Christian Grey and Anastasia Steele so that it could be published. The final version has nothing to do with vampires.
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To a lesser extent that is a criticism that can be leveled against most portrayals of relationships in media though. Drama free healthy relationships don't make for good entertainment.
Hopefully younger people are mapping their healthy relationships off of real people around them, like their parents or older peers. If they don't have that in their life at all a positive media representation prolly isn't going to help much anymore than a negative one will hurt.
There's nothing wrong with portraying bad relationships. It's the "glorifying an abusive relationship" part that's problematic.
Sure, but that's nothing new. Media has always glorified s#~#ty relationships, remember Romeo and Juliet? That's talked about like one of the greatest romances of all time and it's about a pair of dumb ass kids that barely know each other killing themselves. I wish that a&~*~!~ Shakespeare would stop glorifying this s$*#.
But anyway, I agree that it can help set the default for expectations on what is considered acceptable and desireworthy, which isn't good, but once again hopefully they have some positive real life influences that are more present, parents, peers and the like.
Mote that Romeo and Juliet was never considered by Shakespeare or the people of the time to be a hugely romantic story. That's a more modern interpretation. The real read of the play comes out more like "look at these dumb f**~ing kids. Christ kids are dumb. Don't do stupid stuff for a pretty girl dudes. Ladies, the guy wants to bone you, just know that now." Which remains a pretty good message today.
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I wish that a%~&~+$ Shakespeare would stop glorifying this s+*+.
Don't worry, he stopped glorifying profane things a while ago. But you should hear his new sonetts to praise the glory of Azatoth. They are really the peak of his creative work.