Oozes, blindness, blindsight, and blindsense


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I have some major confusion about oozes and their (lack of) vision. The problem all starts with one of the ooze traits:

Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, illusions, visual effects, and other attack forms that rely on sight.

This would be fine if every ooze followed this blanket rule. But many don't. For example:

Oozes:

Colour Out of Space (Bestiary 4): Has blindsense instead of blindsight.

Freezing Flow (Bestiary 4): Has blindsense instead of blindsight.

Immortal Ichor (Bestiary 4): Has blindsense instead of blindsight.

Shoggoth (Bestiary): Clearly not blind despite having ooze traits, because it also has all-around vision, darkvision, low-light vision, and tons of eyes on its illustration. It has tremorsense, but no blindsight. The shoggoth has ooze traits however, so it is still technically blind.

Slime Ooze (Bestiary 2): This poor fellow has nothing. No blindsight, or even blindsense.

Slithering Tracker (Bestiary 2): Has blindsense instead of blindsight. Illustration shows the slithering tracker with eyes, though as with the shoggoth, its ooze traits mean it too is blind.

I see 3 problems here. First, we have two oozes (shoggoth and slithering tracker) whose ability to see is ambiguous. Are both blind? I'd say the shoggoth clearly is not, while the slitering tracker probably is, but... who knows?

Second, a creature lacking vision but with blindsense is still at a massive disadvantage. There's a reason the (often-ignored) ooze traits claimed that all oozes have blindsight instead. To compare the two abilities:

Blindsight and Blindsense:

Blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

Blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.

In short: a blind creature with blindsense alone treats all other creatures as if they had total concealment. That means every time a colour out of space, freezing flow, immortal ichor, or slithering tracker attempts to attack, it has a flat 50% chance of automatically missing.

Third, a slime ooze is screwed. It is utterly helpless unless a character stands next to it and pokes it with a stick, and even then it still has a 50% chance to miss an attack against its tormentor.

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS?
As of now, I can see see only one that could easily untangle this mess. Remove the "Blind (but have the blindsight special quality)" line from ooze traits, then individually note in each ooze creature's statistics whether or not it is blind. This makes the most sense to me. Even plants don't have a "blind" blanket rule, and how many plants do you know that can see? Even fantastical ones?

Another possibility would be to actually follow the "blind but with blindsight" rule, meaning that the stat blocks of past oozes who have blindsense (or nothing at all - poor, poor slime mold) would need to be amended. Still though, that leaves the shoggoth as an outlier.


Creatures don't always follow their types stat-blocks to the letter (for example, not all devils are immune to fire).

It does seem confusing when some of them don't have any listed senses though.


Paulicus wrote:

Creatures don't always follow their types stat-blocks to the letter (for example, not all devils are immune to fire).

It does seem confusing when some of them don't have any listed senses though.

As far as I know, when a creature doesn't follow its "type," that fact is called out in the stat block.

And remember: although the slime mold is an extreme example, having blindsense alone isn't much better. I seriously doubt any creature is meant to suffer a 50% miss chance on all of its attacks by design. But the colour out of space, freezing flow, immortal ichor, and slithering tracker all do.


The slime mold is probably as designed. With the freeze and engulf abilities, it most like hunts by having someone step on it, and then eating them. No perception or attack rolls required.

I think it obvious that any creature with a visual entry (darkvision, all around vision etc.) losses the blind quality. While it doesn't say particularly that it isn't blind, it is fairly obvious that it can see, and thus it is otherwise noted in the entry.

For any creature whose primary attack is engulf, blindsense is about as good as blindsight. Since you don't make an attack roll, you don't suffer the miss chance. That might explain some of the entries (I didn't look them all up).

For any ooze that is designed to make traditional attack rolls, such as the slithering tracker, but only has blindsense, my hunch would be that it was an error made by someone who forgot the difference and wasn't caught in editing. Without a compelling reason for their handicap, I would house-rule those creatures to have blindsight instead of blindsence.


Dave Justus wrote:


Snip.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said, but it comes back to a faulty rule that states "all oozes are blind and have blindsight 60 ft." Which is clearly not the case. I shouldn't have to guess what the developers had in mind when looking at a creature's statistics, especially when we're talking about something as major as the difference between blindsense and blindsight. This isn't a few misplaced skill points in other words, and it's an error that spans 3 of the 4 Bestiaries (and who knows how many oozes statted up in supplements).

Yes I know GM fiat and common sense. But an error is an error, even if it's a nitpicky one.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Oozes, blindness, blindsight, and blindsense All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions