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9 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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As has been discussed in many other threads(to link only a few), both the RAW and RAI is highly ambiguous for this archetype.
This is particularly a problem in Society play where spending an hour discussing how the GM would like to handle things is both unreasonable and unfair to the other players, and results in a great deal of table variation. Thus, I am seeking official clarifications out of a simple desire to have a consistent, playable character.
Below, are three of the features granted by this archetype, the questions they raise, and my personal suggestions on how they could be clarified or interpreted. If you agree that this archetype could use some official feedback, please help me bring this to their attention, thanks.
Quote: Transfer Feats (Ex): Whenever the beast-bonded witch is capable of learning a new feat, she may choose to instead have her familiar learn the feat as a bonus feat. The familiar must meet the prerequisites for any feats that it learns this way. If her familiar is lost or dies, the witch can reclaim the feat slots and select new feats for herself, or apply the slots toward her new familiar.
1) Which feats can be transferred? Only odd number feats, or also ones acquired from other classes?
Any feat may be transferred, although this may prevent the use of features of the other class dependent upon it.
2) Must the witch also meet the prerequisites of the feat being transferred?
Only the familiar need meet the prerequisites.
3) If a familiar is lost, how long can the feats be held for the new one?
A reasonable time would be until the witch next levels up.
4) How does this interact with the feat retraining rules?
A feat can be retrained regardless of where it is assigned. The newly acquired feat can be applied to the witch or the familiar as normal.
Quote: Familiar Form (Sp): At 8th level, a beast-bonded witch may take the shape of her familiar (or a giant version of her familiar or a similar kind of animal) as if using Beast Shape II. For example, a witch with a rat familiar can turn into a Tiny rat, Small dire rat, or a larger rodent; one with a cat familiar can turn into a Tiny cat or a Large feline such as a tiger or lion; one with a monkey familiar can turn into a Tiny monkey or a Large gorilla, and so on. The witch can remain in animal form for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. This ability replaces the witch’s 8th-level hex.
5) How are Beast Shape's type limitations handled?
While Beast Shape specifies creatures of animal type, this ability will let you choose forms similar to your familiar despite them being magical beasts, outsiders, etc. You gain only the modifiers and abilities specified in Beast Shape II.
6) How similar must the chosen form be to the familiar?
Fairly similar. Since a cat familiar only allows cat-like mammals, a Compsognathus familiar only allows similarly looking creatures, not -every- dinosaur. For some unique looking familiars, particularly of outsider type, this may mean only the familiar's exact creature type is selectable.
Quote: Twin Soul (Su): At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle). This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level.
7) "gravely injured or about to die"?
Either in the dying state (under 0hp) or upon dying.
8) What type of action is this transfer?
A free action, usable even when otherwise prevented from taking actions or unconscious.
9) What happens to the vacated body?
Similar to magic jar, it leaves your body lifeless. If you would be dead, the body is also dead. If you would be alive, the body is comatose. Thus, if you flee to your familiar and an ally uses Breath of Life on your body, it may be left in a damaged comatose state until you return to it.
10) What abilities are available to each soul?
Similar to Marionette Possession, while a guest is in control, they use their Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and natural attacks (such as a bite or sting). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. The guest can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural abilities.
11) How do mind-based, ki, mental, and similar abilities affect a shared body?
Whoever currently has control of the body is affected by such effects. If the guest is currently in control, the host can retake control with a move action as normal, but the effect continues to affect the guest for the duration.
12) "guest can return to its own body (if available)"?
If the body is dead, the guest spirit dies and is released. This will, however, allow the guest to be raised from the dead. (while the soul is in the host body, it is not available for Raise Dead, Speak with Dead, and the like)
13) "take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle)?
Michael Brock has stated here that this effect has a duration. The host can magic jar a target with a standard action using the witch's caster level. However, the results are more similar to Marionette Possession - the target's soul is not displaced, you return to your shared body at its expiration, and the target's soul regains control of the body upon your exit. For balance reasons, I recommend an errata to make this option reference Marionette Possession instead of Magic Jar, ie, only usable on willing or unconscious targets.
14) Can the witch and familiar just keep body jumping?
For this ability to work, either the witch or the familiar must be the host of their own original body. While a spirit might temporarily leave the body (and leave the other spirit in control), they may only share the original body of either the witch or the familiar. Thus, if a guest spirit is temporarily magic jared out of the shared body, and the host body dies, the host spirit also dies as it has no valid place to flee to (and the guest spirit will also die upon expiration of the magic jar).
I agree and disagree with a few of your suggestions.
#1: Agree. The line, "Whenever the beast-bonded witch is capable of learning a new feat", seems pretty all encompassing. A Witch-1/Fighter-1 should be able to transfer the bonus Fighter feat to the Familiar (assuming both the Witch and the Familiar qualify for it).
#2: Disagree. Using the same quote I referenced for #1, the Witch must be capable of learning the new feat. This does prevent some feats from being transferred.
#3: Disagree. The most appropriate time would be when the Witch performs the ritual to acquire a new Familiar.
#4: No comment. I'm used to the PFS rules that prevent a Familiar from using the retraining rules, and have no opinion outside of PFS.
#5-6: Disagree. Your suggestion could be a fun houserule with the right GM, but can exponentially increase its power beyond its original function (Celestial or Fiendish Animals immediately come to mind). Beast Shape II handles only mundane animals, and that falls best in line with the power of the ability and the examples called out by the class feature.
#7+: I haven't looked much beyond how the other class features function, so I'll leave that debate to those more familiar with them.
Nefreet wrote: I agree and disagree with a few of your suggestions.
#1: Agree. The line, "Whenever the beast-bonded witch is capable of learning a new feat", seems pretty all encompassing. A Witch-1/Fighter-1 should be able to transfer the bonus Fighter feat to the Familiar (assuming both the Witch and the Familiar qualify for it).
#2: Disagree. Using the same quote I referenced for #1, the Witch must be capable of learning the new feat. This does prevent some feats from being transferred.
#3: Disagree. The most appropriate time would be when the Witch performs the ritual to acquire a new Familiar.
#4: No comment. I'm used to the PFS rules that prevent a Familiar from using the retraining rules, and have no opinion outside of PFS.
#5-6: Disagree. Your suggestion could be a fun houserule with the right GM, but can exponentially increase its power beyond its original function (Celestial or Fiendish Animals immediately come to mind). Beast Shape II handles only mundane animals, and that falls best in line with the power of the ability and the examples called out by the class feature.
#7+: I haven't looked much beyond how the other class features function, so I'll leave that debate to those more familiar with them.
#2: The question arises because it's unclear whether it's the feat or the feat slot that gets transferred. If it's "witch gets feat, then chooses to have familiar learn it instead" then your reading is correct. Another reading, however, is "witch can learn a feat, but chooses familiar to learn a feat instead... check prereqs on familiar".
#3: The issue is the witch must make the choice when "her familiar is lost or dies". Yet, it's really not possible to immediately transfer the feats to a new (unacquainted) familiar at that point. Upon acquiring a new familiar would also be acceptable, but what happens to the feats in the mean time? There's nothing that requires a witch to immediately acquire a new familiar. Can they just bank the feats for a few levels? (granted, most witches will want their spell use back as soon as possible)
#4: I'm also playing PFS. The question is whether the witch can retrain feats it has granted to the familiar. Also, when a witch retrains a feat, whether it can be assigned to the familiar.
#5-6: By that logic, this ability is completely unusable, as familiars are magical beasts, not animals. I would be okay with a ruling that says to use the familiar's original type, although it seems odd to punish a player based on their choice of familiar.
Note, that using this in conjunction with a celestial or fiendish animal familiar doesn't really change the power, as Beast Shape II strictly limits the acquired powers to "climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip". The only additional thing that could be acquired from the template is darkvision, which generally isn't that big a deal.
#7+: To be honest, the above questions, while reasonable to seek clarifications on, are pretty minor. It's their level 10 ability that is a huge can of worms and needs to be addressed.
I'm trying to think of ways to make use of passing over feats that you'd (uselessly) double up onto the familiar (like, if you took brawler/monk levels and have IUS from both, for example). Not sure how the witch itself fits in there tho... maybe a really familiar/teamwork focused EK could make good use of it.
My only experience with this archetype was as a one level dip when theorycrafting a gnome mounted on a small-sized goat (utilizing the Undersized Mount feat). I wanted to give a few combat feats to the goat, as well as Acrobatic Steps for dealing with difficult terrain.
In the end I determined it was too much of a headache for the sake of theme.
Maybe something cool slips through in the fiend folio. I remember there being a fighter archetype with a familiar.
LoneKnave, the extra IUAS transfer is an interesting idea, to give high BAB familiars iteratives, although the damage is going to be pretty weak at later levels when you're likely to be able to get it set up.
The one level dip is pretty straightforward and allows some interesting options, but it's the level 10 power that really causes headaches for players and GMs alike.
It's quite a flavorful and unique archetype, so it'd be a shame for it not to receive a bit of clarification.
IUS also counts as a pre-req for quite a number of feats you could want your animal companion to have; Dragon Style so it can charge through difficult terrain, improved/greater grapple, etc.
So it's a lot better than one would give it credit for at first glance.
EDIT: also, let's not forget a brawler with martial flexibility could pass over feats to the familiar as needed.
That could be quite fun.
Adding another question that's come up:
Quote: Twin Soul (Su)
...
This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level.
...
Major Hexes: The following major hex complements the beast-bonded archetype: beast eye.
15) Can a Beast-Bonded Witch take Major Hexes?
Since it recommends taking a major hex, this seems to imply that the intent was to only give up the 10th level major hex, and the witch can take major hexes at level 12+ or with the Extra Hex feat. But as written, it appears the beast-bonded witch loses all access to major hexes.
Byakko wrote: Adding another question that's come up:
Quote: Twin Soul (Su)
...
This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level.
...
Major Hexes: The following major hex complements the beast-bonded archetype: beast eye.
15) Can a Beast-Bonded Witch take Major Hexes?
Since it recommends taking a major hex, this seems to imply that the intent was to only give up the 10th level major hex, and the witch can take major hexes at level 12+ or with the Extra Hex feat. But as written, it appears the beast-bonded witch loses all access to major hexes.
If that is all the pertinent information, how does that limit you from ever taking major hexes again?
It doesn't say your 10th level and every major hex after that point (like some abilities state you lose your level x, y, z feats for them). It states you lose that particular level's hex. I'm fairly sure you can read the archetype rules/FAQs/errata to answer that one easily enough that it doesn't deserve to be on the list.
Skylancer4 wrote: Byakko wrote: Adding another question that's come up:
Quote: Twin Soul (Su)
...
This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level.
...
Major Hexes: The following major hex complements the beast-bonded archetype: beast eye.
15) Can a Beast-Bonded Witch take Major Hexes?
Since it recommends taking a major hex, this seems to imply that the intent was to only give up the 10th level major hex, and the witch can take major hexes at level 12+ or with the Extra Hex feat. But as written, it appears the beast-bonded witch loses all access to major hexes.
If that is all the pertinent information, how does that limit you from ever taking major hexes again?
It doesn't say your 10th level and every major hex after that point (like some abilities state you lose your level x, y, z feats for them). It states you lose that particular level's hex. I'm fairly sure you can read the archetype rules/FAQs/errata to answer that one easily enough that it doesn't deserve to be on the list.
The issue is that witches gain a "Hex" every other level, even past level 10.
At 10th level, they gain the "Major Hex" class feature which allows them to choose one of the major hexes whenever they could select a new Hex.
Without the "Major Hex" feature, which is replaced by the archetype, they are unable to choose major hexes instead of normal ones.
Still seeking clarifications, especially with the release of the new Familiar Folio.
So saw this thread and it caused an idea to form.
What happens when a beast bonded witch/ brawler transfers a feat she learns through martial flexibility?
That'd probably be fine. The familiar would have to qualify for the feat, and would lose it when the witch would've lost it.
(yeah, I know it doesn't say anything about the familiar losing granted feats, but let's be reasonable here)
For what it is worth, the class and archetype state:
Witch wrote: Major Hex
Starting at 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch can choose one of the following major hexes whenever she could select a new hex.
Beast Bonded wrote: This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level. It says the major hex at 10th level, not the major hex ability itself. And as you said it even suggests a major hex to go with the archetype as well.
Could it be more clear, sure. But I don't think that this particular point is FAQ worthy.
Skylancer, I believe that's everyone's first thought.
But witches only ever gain the Major Hex class feature once - at 10th level.
It modifies what you can select for your Hexes. Without the 10th level Major Hex class feature, you are never able to select from the Major Hex list at other levels either.
Byakko wrote: Skylancer, I believe that's everyone's first thought.
But witches only ever gain the Major Hex class feature once - at 10th level.
It modifies what you can select for your Hexes. Without the 10th level Major Hex class feature, you are never able to select from the Major Hex list at other levels either.
It says the "witch's major hex at tenth level" not "the major hex class feature."
This should be obvious as to what was intended, due to the fact that they specified "at tenth level".
Which would be the difference between saying, the witch's major hex at level 10 versus the witch's major hex class ability at level 10. It doesn't state class ability and it does say a specific major hex works well with the archetype. It probably would have been better to just say the "hex" gained at 10th level, but in all fairness at 10th level, you are going to be picking a major hex.
We have vague wording that could be taken one of two ways, with a specific indication the one way you could take it is incorrect within the same archetype write up.
13)I really think this should remain magic jar.
It allows for a possession themed character, and leaves just enough ambiguous to have some table variation as to what happens when you use it.
I am curious if you can choose a target properly, though, unlike regular magic jar.
I do actually agree with you guys about the major hexes, but it's just one more vagueness on top of everything else, so thought I'd mention it.
icehawk, presumably you could target the magic jar accurately as you're still able to see, and not trapped in a stone. Just one of many unanswered questions about how similar it is to the magic jar spell considering its lack of receptacle.
With the recent release of the familiar-focused Familiar Folio, I feel this is an excellent time to shamelessly bump this thread.
Official clarifications? One can always hope.
Totally resurrecting this thread because it's driving me nuts. Has there been any official clarification on Familiar Form all these years later?
Doubt it. Expect table variation.
While late to the party, nobody mentioned this:
Byakko wrote: Quote: Twin Soul (Su): At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle). This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level. 7) "gravely injured or about to die"?
Either in the dying state (under 0hp) or upon dying.
Gravely injured is neither dying or staggered. The spell Deathwatch suggests fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left). So I would say this would be a suitable number (<=3) to use as the gravely injured cutoff.
Byakko wrote: 8) What type of action is this transfer?
A free action, usable even when otherwise prevented from taking actions or unconscious.
I would say the automatic transfer is Not-An-Action, and the deliberate transfer is a Standard action. Somewhat similar to perception checks having some without a cost, and some with a cost.
LoneKnave wrote: also, let's not forget a brawler with martial flexibility could pass over feats to the familiar as needed.
That could be quite fun.
Too bad Martial Flexibility is not learning a feat.
Martial Flexibility wrote: A brawler can take a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat she doesn’t possess. /cevah
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