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The Rider is my first archetype! Based primarily on the Dragon Riders of the Inheritance saga, I felt that the Magus was a perfect fit for him. And finally I have created it, inspired by the burn mechanic in the Occult playtest.
Some notes:
I went with an archetype instead of a new class because I didn't want to feel compelled to make all sorts of archetypes for a new class. Also there is complaints about class saturation here and there.
Wyvern Mount: I was unsure what to do with this, so I eyeballed the stats of the wyvern in the Bestiary and dropped all the feats except fly-by attack. I also dropped the poison ability. I replaced Spell Combat with this because I felt it should be available at first level, even though I really like Spell Combat. Also, I used a wyvern because I thought it would be less over-powered than an actual dragon.
Burn: I basically took the modifications of Arcane Pool and stuck them here in burn. Anything that spends arcana points instead causes the rider to suffer burn points.
Magus Arcana: I was too lazy to even copy/paste all of those arcana. Basically, wherever it says "spends # of arcana points" should be translated as "inflicts # of burn points" which shouldn't cause any problems. Probably.
Spell Recall: Again, replaced "spend arcana" with "suffer burn" but it is otherwise unchanged.
Share the Burn: I'm not sure if this is proper wording or not. I wanted an ability that emulated Saphira sharing her energy with Eragon to provide him with some additional power for spells and staying awake. In other words, your wyvern gets Burn at this level but you an access it, causing the penalities to stack on her. Perhaps not wise, but useful for those extra spells to bring down the bad guy.
Spell Combat: I stuck it here at 8th level because I didn't want to lose it completely. Not having the Improved version is ok with me.
What do you guys think? Is it a balanced and suitable way to be Eragon?
So you're giving a 7 HD creature to a 1st level character. And it's a flying mount. Ya know, something the cavalier, the class completely dedicated to mounted combat, cannot do until 7th level and without a feat?
This concept would work better as a prestige class. Maybe you could get some inspiration from the mammoth rider.
A wyvern mount at 1st level is obviously too powerful. Take a look at the monster cohort table. A wyvern is the equivalent of a level 10 cohort, which can be gained with the leadership feat, but not before 11th level!
Ok, so the wyvern is too powerful, and I need to include more ways to reduce burn. I missed the HD, didn't think to reduce it to scale in level.
It would work better as a prestige class, I have no doubt about that. But Dragon riders aren't usually something else before being a rider. Maybe some of them, but not all of them. Eragon for instance, was a farmer before finding the egg. Farmer isn't a base class, so that's not something he can take levels in to get to Rider. I'd really like to keep the 20 level class for that. So, what if..
What if I rewrite Wyvern Mount. First, drop the HD down to 1. Lower the ability scores too, by say 2-4 points each. Make it a medium creature that is unable to fly with a rider on it's back.
Then at level four, it gets bigger. Increase the scores back to normal, increase the size category to large so it can carry the rider. Allow it flight, but carrying a rider will cause a burn penalty.
At level 7, flying no longer causes burn, and you have a Dragon Rider who can utilize his mount's constituition to redirect burn from himself.
And replace stuff at those levels or other levels. Like say, Fighter Training thing. And/or bonus feats.
What are some more ways to reduce the burn? Perhaps some more arcana? Or maybe a feat.
My biggest problem with the archetype is that it feels like the mount has absolutely nothing to do with the magus and this burn mechanic at all. They give up their signature class feature for an overpowered flying mount, they can later cheat the burn economy, and...that's it. If you want to make a mount-based magus, I think you can do way better than this. Tie it to his spellcasting or something. Maybe when the magus casts a cone, line, or ray spell, he can have his mount deliver it as a breath weapon? Maybe when he casts a touch spell, he can have the mount spellstrike with it?
I like those ideas a lot. And since I can't sleep right now, I'm going to work on this instead. Expect an update by tomorrow!
Right, not sure how to edit posts, but here's the The Rider version 2. I left the original up so that you guys could compare side by side. In case it isn't good enough.
Not allowed access to current file. Not sure what that's about!
Sorry about that. This should work now. I was very tired, and didn't get the sharable link.
So, first things first - great concept. Who does want to be a dragon rider? And being a gish on top of that?
But, yeah the mount it way too powerful. You're forcing it to achieve the concept at level 1. Instead of looking at the Beastiary, look at the animal companions. Maybe the Dire Bat or Roc. Pick one and fiddle with the stats. You could make it any color dragon I suppose. But - don't make it more powerful than other animal companions. The magus won't be able to ride it at early levels, but its better this way.
Maybe instead of the Burn ability, he can gains some mounted combat feats.
I thought about teamwork feats for him and his mount. Did you check out both versions? I went more with the animal companions in the second one. I picked two at random, bird and iguanadon, and basically compared them to the wyvern's stats to mimic them and still be useable. I think I accomplished it, but I'm not sure about the flying part.
I have been reconsidering burn and switching back to the arcane pool for simplicity, and that would free up the Share the Burn slot for something else.
Also, thanks!
I just found the rewrite. Sorry!
I feel like burn is out of place. The flying mount is the primary thematic element of this archetype, but not much attention is given to it.
Well I included burn because in Inheritance, spellcasters like Riders can tire themselves out if they cast too much or try too hard, and even die. They also can draw energy from other living things nearby, like their dragon buddy (who usually have more to spare) which is why I included Share the Burn.
I could just as easily switch it back to an Arcane Pool and perhaps create a few arcana talents to go with it. Maybe even some trait-level teamwork feats as the arcana to further tie the wyvern to the class.
But I don't know right now, and I should really go to bed.
Shameless bump.
1. Excellent question. I kept the spells the same, so like a Magus he is prepared with a book.
2. I'm not really sure how to tie it into spells, and I've been thinking about going back to the arcana pool anyway for simplicity sake.
3. Well Cyrad mentioned using spellstrike with the mount, so I included it in there. You're right though, your mount is physically weaker than just about any weapon you'll have. But in those scenarios where your mount is closer to the action than you are, you might want to spellstrike through his teeth.
4. I was lazy, and just wrote in the Magus Arcana that any instances of cost # of arcana pool points instead suffers an equal # of burn. Also, why does the Swashbuckler have deeds that uses an Arcana Pool? The Swashbuckler doesn't have an arcana pool.
5. Again, Cyrad's suggestion. I thought it was a cool idea, since wyverns don't have breath weapons, casting some such spell as though it is your wyvern's breath weapon seems pretty cool.
1. Oh I did? Whoops. Sorry I guess I was thinking of a different version. Then I guess that makes them more like a Cleric. Only Int based. And they meditate for an hour. EDIT: So to answer your question, he just knows new spells from his spell list when he levels.
2. I think so too.
3. True. Maybe we need some Magus Arcana for the mount.
5. You have a good point, but still I would like to keep it. Maybe word it slightly different. Instead of the Rider casting a spell that his wyvern directs, give the wyvern a breath-weapon type thing that cast spells? Or just a breath weapon. I'd prefer the breath weapon to be line, ray and cone spells for the sheer flavor of that. So you could rotate them out, rather than being stuck with one type. Limit it to a number of times per day.
I obviosuly have a different vision of this, because I'd want my magus to run through a demon with his lance that shoots lighting while he magic missles a lesser foe and the dragon he's riding eats someone's animal companion.
I think my vision would be able to do that, if I could get it right. I'm not as skilled as you at the mechanics of classes. That was hilarious by the way.
You might need to remove a class feature in exchange for some mounted combat feats. Sure, the magus can use his normal feats for those, but he will need to operate off the mount as well.
I had considered adding teamwork feats to the Magus's bonus feats selection. Mounted combats feats would be better though.
Making the mount available at 1st level isn't neccessary. Why on earth would a character have or need a flying mount at that level? Keep spell combat as is - its kind of the magus's thing.
I would push it back a bit, replacing class features that make the magus more "wizardy", such as Spell Recall, Knowledge Pool, Improved Spell Recall, and maybe Counterstrike and Greater Spell Access. It seems like a lot, but having a dragon buddy could be pretty significant, depending on how the mechanics work out.
And you might as well change the Bonus Feats list to everything with everything in the Mounted Combat group.
Well, I was keeping it with the theme of Eragon, his journey didn't begin (no heroic class) until he got his Dragon. Actually, it was even a few months after he got his dragon.
But you're right. Mount really has no place in the first level, there is nothing really there for it to replace.
So what if I move it to 4th level, replacing Spell Recall? Change the wording a bit to say "treats his Magus level as his effective Druid level -3" like the Ranger does.
Then at 7th level, the wyvern grows up into his kickass self and that replaces Knowledge Pool.
Unfortunately, if I do it that way it means you have to wait until level seven to ride around on your wyvern if you're a medium sized person. As opposed to getting your mount at level 1 and riding him at 4. I could fix this by increasing the size of the mount to large in his starting characteristics, but I don't know if that would be overkill or not.
At level 11, we can replace Improved Spell Recall with Dragon Strike. Combining the Spell Strike addition with the Dragonfire ability. This allows you to still cast spells through your wyvern if you wish. Maybe throw in a damage boost for his jaws that way Spellstrike isn't wasted on weak attacks. Perhaps a +1d6 per 1/2 level? Or maybe 1d4. Nah, 1d6 should do it.
Counterstrike and Greater Spell Access I almost want to leave as is. Mostly because I can't think of anything to replace them. Maybe something involving the heart of a dragon? In the books they had those cool little orbs that granted more mana and let their dragon keep living if his body is killed. Perhaps that could replace Greater Spell Access but keep the same basic effect, more spells. I don't know. Any suggestions would be great for that.
I thought of a capstone possibly: Dragon Immortality. The bond you and your wyvern share has granted you immortality. You stop aging, and you are immune to magical aging effects (maybe diseases too, have to look at monks). You can still be killed, and your aging resumes if your wyvern dies. Just a thought, remember I am basing this off the Riders from Eragon and such.
Could do the dragon as a wyrmling at first and have the dragon "grow" with the character.
I agree you should shoot for 4th level. If it takes until 7th for it to become large, then so be it. Its a fitting ability for that level.
The alternative is to make it large earlier and surrender some more low-level ability. At super high level, the mount should become huge, swallowing lesser beasts whole. Seems a suitable replacement for Greater Spell Access. :)
And are you really set on wyvern? I would love to see a character class where you are a dragon rider.
Believe me, I'd love for a dragon too. But I feel that a dragon is too powerful a mount for a character. As awesome as that would be. It would be thematic, it would be better, it would be OP as, well as a Magus riding on a f***ing Dragon.
They wyvern getting another size boost at level 19 to huge sounds really cool. Maybe even a few other boosts too, it could be like a capstone for your best buddy. Damage and such increase. Maybe even an increase for the mental scores too.
I went with wyvern over dragon because I figured that would be the safer route. Wyverns are pretty darn close to dragons, they just don't have a breath weapon. But they talk, they fly, they eat people, they horde sometimes. All the hallmarks of a great dragon, minus the breath weapon. Which is why I was adamant about firing ray, cone or line spells from your mounts mouth. By the time that kicks in, your mount's neck will give you an extra five feet of distance on those spells, blasting just about everyone.
Alternatively, you could just give the wyvern a breath weapon on your choice at that level. Which might be better, seeing the Magus's limited selection of spells that do those things. Plus, that way you don't have to waste a precious spell for a cool thematic effect. On the upside, that cool thematic effect also allowed switching between types of damage on the fly (providing you have the right spells), giving your wyvern a level of versatility a dragon (who in my opinion have to have a breath weapon to be a dragon) would not have.
As a GM, if I had a player that said "I found this cool archetype online, it lets you ride on a dragon!" my first thought would probably be a "nope!" But if he said "it lets you ride a wyvern!" I'd probably be more tolerant.
Finally, I did all that work converting the wyvern to an animal companion statblock, I'd hate to have wasted it. Which might not seem like a good excuse, but I'm also lazy and I have other archetypes in mind that I should get around to doing. So there is that.
And those are my reasons for saying wyvern all the time instead of dragon.
ON ANOTHER NOTE: I forgot to address the Bonus Feat situation earlier. I feel like giving them access to all the feats is stupid. I mean, what class has that? None right? Except all characters get access to all the feats anyway, just not from their classes. So I was thinking about (since we're removing the Wizardry aspects anyway) giving them combat, metamagic and mounted combat feats. Lose the item creation, let someone else make magic items. Or better yet, why waste the resources when you'll probably stumble across what you want anyway! Also, the Magus has the ability to make his sword all magicky anyway, at least temporarily.
Whew. Big ol' block of text that.
You could make it a new beast.... It is a giant lizard til a higher level when its wings manifest. No need to use Wyvern or Dragon. After all, there are player races that suddenly "grow" wings when they pick up a feat. :P. Then, instead of using the Magus Class, maybe actually use the Summoner class, and replace all summon abilities with the beast, so you still have the spells, and apply burn to the spells to compensate for the power levels of the dragonkind?
3PP gives you options for Dragonriders and more...
1. The Genius Guide to Dragonriders by Rogue Genius Games is a new class.
2. In the Company of Dragons allows PCs to play a balanced dragon race that can be a mount for small riders at 4th/5th level and serves as a mount for medium riders at 8th/10th (depending on the specific class/archetype chosen).
3. Geek Industrial Complex offers Companions of the Firmament a definitive resource that consolidates all the flying and falling rules from Pathfinder Core and puts it in one place. A wyrmrider cavalier archetype and a focus on flying animal companions. All flying beasts from Bestiaries 1-4 are consolidated also.
Sphynx: See though, that's work. And I felt that the Magus was a good fit for the Dragon Riders of the Inheritance saga because of their spellcasting ability and ability to cast spells through their swords.
gamer-printer: I don't think the Dragonrider base class has spells, which is something I wanted in my Rider. Playing a draconic race doesn't fit the concept either, although that is pretty cool. As for the Companions of the Firmament, that book is pretty sweet. And I will want to buy it soon enough probably. I have another archetype in mind that gives magical creatures as animal companions to a Wizard. Definitely want it for the flying combat stuff.
I'm going to make one last rewrite for you guys to review. If anyone wants to make a dragon mount, go for it. But I'll be sticking with my wyvern.
It is way too much for way too little. You give up two spell selects (not spells per day), for a flying powerful ally. You give up nothing to allow better spellstrike, and better offesne spells. A wyvern should cost you something that bites, like Arcana. It has to be something that makes you question if the gain is worth the cost, and you only thinking it is worth the cost if you are the few who would really like to have that gain... It cant be so that only a fool would pass on the option.
The idea is sound, a dragonrider would be awesome as an archetype, but for a gain, you need a sacrifice that is at least equal, not just stuff you could do without anyways.
Sphynx: You're giving up your spell-casting versatility for the mount. Spell Recall lets you regain lots spell slots for the day, Knowledge Pool gives you some additional random selections, and Greater Spell Access loses you some powerful or useful late-game Wizard spells. All that for a mount.
Kestral: You're the one who told me that my first Spellstrike using your wyvern's mouth was always going to be weaker than the magus's weapon. So I tried to think of a way to boost the damage output. But now it doesn't work the other way. I was trying to keep the two spellstrike options even.
Okay. How about I lose the extra damage dice in Dragon Strike? Would that make it better? Would that make losing Improved Spell Recall and gaining Dragon Strike more even of a trade?
As for the Huge/good flying, I just thought that I should continue the trend of advancement. But I'll keep it at average. And without the extra damage from Dragon Strike, I'd feel better about increasing the bite and rake attacks to 2d8 and 2d6 respectively, which is what I wanted to do anyway, but I felt that would make Dragon Strike murderous.
EDIT: Updated the third version to implement the changes I talked about.
gamer-printer: I don't think the Dragonrider base class has spells, which is something I wanted in my Rider.
d20pfsrd.com has the Dragonrider class posted and apparently it has an extremely limited selection of spells from sorcerer/wizard list starting at 5th level like paladins or rangers. So dragonriders do indeed cast spells.
Oh, neat. I stand corrected then. I was under the impression that it was a Cavalier on a dragon.
Hmm, looking over it, a few things jump out at me. First, the 3 good saves. Second, there isn't a 0 on the spells table at 4th level like a Paladin. Other than that, it's some pretty neat rules. Pretty much what I was looking for. If only it had more than just the one archetype posted.
I think I'm still going to use my archetype though.
Oh, neat. I stand corrected then. I was under the impression that it was a Cavalier on a dragon.
Hmm, looking over it, a few things jump out at me. First, the 3 good saves. Second, there isn't a 0 on the spells table at 4th level like a Paladin. Other than that, it's some pretty neat rules. Pretty much what I was looking for. If only it had more than just the one archetype posted.
I think I'm still going to use my archetype though.
I know this is late, but conceptually domesticated animals seem to have less HD than wild versions (see wolf versus dog). So maybe a wyvern with less HD and resulting abilities? Not sure about flight though.
Well, I was keeping it with the theme of Eragon, his journey didn't begin (no heroic class) until he got his Dragon. Actually, it was even a few months after he got his dragon.
Unless your goal is to play Eragon the RPG instead of Pathfinder, you still need to balance things in the context of standard player characters.
There was another dragon riding class...
Can't remember who did it but it was like a mix of Eragon and How to Train your Dragon.
The dragons were "drakes" and you could custom build one for your character's mount.
Only downside was it was treated like an Eidolon a bit, with shared magic slots, and i even think they shared HPs.
Anyhoo, the custom drake thing was great.
Saphira is a very powerful creature that works within the realm of the story she's in, but alongside a 1st level character in Pathfinder, not so much.
I have a major problem with any class that reduces dragons to class features.
Well, you can replicate the feel of a dragon rider without it being a true dragon. Saphira wasn't a true dragon, in a DnD sense, she was something else.
Found it. Dragonbound
It's not the best, for a few reasons, but I've found it a great farm for ideas for other classes.
Thanks for taking an interest guys! To be honest I had put this idea on the backburner for a bit to mess with some other stuff.
I'll take a look at the Dragonbound soon and see if it works for me.
Using a true dragon would be ridiculous, which is why I thought of a wyvern. I like the idea of a sort of domesticated version of the wyvern instead of the real thing. Some sort of drake would be cool, but I don't know about a mutable one. Course customizing your companion does sound pretty awesome. Hmm. The Dragonbound does sound pretty sweet.