Hi there
I am about to play in a Carrion Crown adventure and after some deliberation, I've decided to switch to playing a Fighter as I've never played one before. In particular the Two Handed Fighter.
I'm in a 3 man party consisting of a Dwarf Inquisitor (Rage domain) and a Human Reach Cleric of Desna. Because we only have 3 players, the DM will allow us to have max HPs.
My challenge is to stay a straight fighter and human. I was inspired heavily by Druss the Legend but wanting to put my own spin.
I am not going for a one trick pony but when I was running one of my players made a comment how useless Vital Strike was. So I wanted the challenge of trying to make it work. Even though it is situational I can see where it is really useful - great against opponents with DR and high AC foes that you are probably not going to hit with iteratives. Combine with Furious Focus and the other Two Handed Fighter archetype features, it seemed viable.
What I came to was that I can use Two Handed Thrower with all the archetype perks of the Two Handed Fighter, hurl a weapon with Greater Vital Strike + Devastating Strike for a lot of damage. I can also Sunder + Vital Strike, Lunge + Vital Strike, Attack of Opportunity with a Vital Strike (once). Also if I use a Reach weapon I can sunder without incurring AoOs. I have avoided Cleaving since I think it is mechanically weak past low levels.
For this build I was looking at using a Lucerne Hammer, getting an adamantine version with the returning property ASAP and as many pluses as I can afford. The idea is stand at a distance, throw the hammer where I can, have it return and keep the enemy at bay using reach and Combat Reflexes. If they get in range, take a five foot step back or drop the hammer, switch to spiked gauntlets.
Any feedback here would be greatly appreciated!
Here's what I've come up with:
1: Power Attack, Toughness, Iron Will
2: Furious Focus
3: Improved Sunder
4: Two Handed Thrower
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Vital Strike
7: Lunge
8: Greater Sunder
9: Devastating Strike
10: Improved Iron Will
11: Improved Vital Strike
12: Disruptive
13: Improved Devastating Strike
14: Sundering Strike
15: Death or Glory
16: Greater Vital Strike
17: (open)
18: (open)
19: (open)
20: (open)
Oh using 25 pt buy because we only have 3 players. Here's my stat allocation thus far:
Str: 17+2=19
Dex: 13
Con: 15
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 9
Attribute increases will go into Dex at Level 4, the rest into Str.
Favoured class bonus into HPs since his AC will be crap and he's a frontliner.
If you want to go the Vital Strike route... I would suggest a double damage dice weapon with a higher critical multiplier. The Earth Breaker for example. Yes, you don't crit as often; however, when you do... you bring the pain! For example.... You have Vital Strike and crit... That's 8d6+3xbonuses.
That way you really maximize the amount of damage dice your weapon with Vital Strike. 4d6 vs. 2d10... I find 4d6 more satisfying.
Hi there
I am about to play in a Carrion Crown adventure and after some deliberation, I've decided to switch to playing a Fighter as I've never played one before. In particular the Two Handed Fighter.
I'm in a 3 man party consisting of a Dwarf Inquisitor (Rage domain) and a Human Reach Cleric of Desna. Because we only have 3 players, the DM will allow us to have max HPs.
My challenge is to stay a straight fighter and human. I was inspired heavily by Druss the Legend but wanting to put my own spin.
I am not going for a one trick pony but when I was running one of my players made a comment how useless Vital Strike was. So I wanted the challenge of trying to make it work. Even though it is situational I can see where it is really useful - great against opponents with DR and high AC foes that you are probably not going to hit with iteratives. Combine with Furious Focus and the other Two Handed Fighter archetype features, it seemed viable.
What I came to was that I can use Two Handed Thrower with all the archetype perks of the Two Handed Fighter, hurl a weapon with Greater Vital Strike + Devastating Strike for a lot of damage. I can also Sunder + Vital Strike, Lunge + Vital Strike, Attack of Opportunity with a Vital Strike (once). Also if I use a Reach weapon I can sunder without incurring AoOs. I have avoided Cleaving since I think it is mechanically weak past low levels.
For this build I was looking at using a Lucerne Hammer, getting an adamantine version with the returning property ASAP and as many pluses as I can afford. The idea is stand at a distance, throw the hammer where I can, have it return and keep the enemy at bay using reach and Combat Reflexes. If they get in range, take a five foot step back or drop the hammer, switch to spiked gauntlets.
Any feedback here would be greatly appreciated!
Here's what I've come up with:
1: Power Attack, Toughness, Iron Will
2: Furious Focus
3: Improved Sunder
4: Two Handed Thrower
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Vital Strike
7: Lunge
8: Greater Sunder
9: Devastating Strike
10: Improved Iron Will
11: Improved Vital Strike
12: Disruptive
13: Improved Devastating Strike
14: Sundering Strike
15: Death or Glory
16: Greater Vital Strike
17: (open)
18: (open)
19: (open)
20: (open)
The feat list isn't too bad, but there are some issues that you should be aware of.
Right out of the gate, don't take Toughness, at least not right away. If you're going to be playing with maximum Hit points (and the enemies are not, of course), the extra 3 or so hit points aren't worth the feat, even if they scale. Chances are, enemies in the lower levels aren't going to be one-shotting a 12 hit point Fighter. I'd sub that for something else, like Weapon Focus. (You can never have enough bonuses to hit and damage.) If you are still somehow having trouble staying alive in the later levels, go ahead and take it, but starting out, you shouldn't need it.
Improved Devastating Strike should not really be needed either, since your attack bonuses are already high enough when facing enemies. Additionally, unless you're using an 18-20/X2 weapon (the Nodachi is a great example for this), it's not worth the feat since your chances of critting are pretty slim.
Disruptive won't really make a difference by that level, as most casters who are worth their salt won't be having trouble combat casting, and the minor penalty it gives won't amount to anything.
Combat Reflexes is not going to help you out too much unless you get other abilities that grant you additional Attacks of Opportunity, A feat for an extra AoO per round, although it seems nice, isn't really worth it against smart enemies. If you were going to take Bodyguard, I'd say go for it, as you would be getting extra uses for your AoOs; on top of that, there are better feat selections.
If you are planning to be a thrower-type, Lunge won't be particularly useful.
Death or Glory, although nice, is a very situational feat. The only time you will be able to use it properly is if the enemy you're attacking has already used their Immediate/Swift Action for the round, as their ability to hit you back is nullified. Otherwise, you're only trading 1 for 1 at slightly higher benefits, and that's not a smart tactic unless you're enabling a better trade for one of your party members.
As a personal note, Sunder, although a great maneuver for Two-Handed Fighters to excel at, does come at its own price; you'll be destroying the gear you'll be claiming as your own, and fixing it will cost money, or even selling it will end up having a reduced value for its damage. I won't say not take it, but I will say to be careful with its uses, as you may end up destroying powerful upgrades you may want/need.
For your open feats, I'd suggest grabbing the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feat lines, as well as the Penetrating Strike line of feats, pumping out your damage and attack numbers are your bread and butter. Improved Initiative is always good; being able to go first in combat is very valuable, especially in later levels where going first decides the battle because rocket tag.
Oh using 25 pt buy because we only have 3 players. Here's my stat allocation thus far:
Str: 17+2=19
Dex: 13
Con: 15
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 9
Not a bad selection, and I'm assuming you don't want to dump stats, but I can wedge in a few more points for your optimization level here.
Dexterity should only be 12 tops, as Combat Reflexes and none of your other feats do not require Dexterity. The +1 modifier for Full Plate is all you're going to need.
Constitution should be dropped down to 14. You are paying 2 points for no mechanical gain, when those 2 points can increase some more important statistics.
Wisdom should be pumped up to 14, and Charisma can be placed back to 10 with the extra cutbacks you made.
If you have access to the Advanced Race Guide, I would consider removing the Toughness Bonus Feat you would normally get, as well as the extra skill point per level, and take the Dual Talent racial trait. From there, you can also pump your Constitution or Wisdom up to 16 if you'd like. Or, you can have some dump stat leeway, be able to safely dump your Charisma down to 7 (resulting in the effective 9 you currently have), and raise your Strength to an effective 20.
As far as skills, you won't be doing much, and that's because you aren't designed for it. If you had Armor Training, I'd highly recommend Acrobatics, even if it is not a Class Skill. (If it wasn't, the Additional Traits feat would be very helpful, since this would make Acrobatics a Class Skill, as well as another benefit of your choice from the Traits section.) Otherwise, I'd do a Climb/Swim hybrid divvy-up (that is, you effectively spend 10 points on both), and the other skill to be maximum Perception. (You can never have enough Perception in a party.)
'
If you have other questions or need other suggestions, I made a fairly comprehensive Two-Handed Fighter guide. (You can find it here, and it should cover all the bases you could possibly need covered, as well as some adventuring tips.
Good luck!
Imho, a Human Fighter gets more from Dual Talented than the feat and the extra skill points. You really can use more points into STR/DEX.
Wow thanks for the tips. I will have a play around with the point buy and see what I can come up with a little later. Same with the feats.
The reason behind Two Handed Thrower was, as near as I can tell, I can get the x2 STR bonus on a throw, Power Attack (at no penalty with Furious Focus) and assuming it is a single throw I can use a Vital Strike and Devastating Strike (single attack action). Is that correct? That is a helluva lot in one action. The only bummer is I'd take an AoO to do it (and there's another feat I can take to fix that). Oh and I have no idea on the range increment of a Lucerne Hammer.
On the subject of the weapon, I picked a weapon that didn't require exotic weapon proficiency, had reach and looked cool. If I was going for a reach weapon with 2d6 damage dice and reach and didn't mind spending a feat I'd go dwarven long hammer. But I am not wedded to tshe lucerne. In fact I could go a great sword just as easily but then I lose out on reach advantages and the crux of my build.
Sundering, same deal. Happy to get rid of it but it just seemed like a nifty way to take advantage of some of the bonuses inherent in the two handed fighter archetype.
Is the build idea I am working towards solid? I have never really played a Fighter before so I am wondering if manoevers like Sunder are worth it or if I should just focus on maximizing to hit, damage and AoOs.
Thanks!
Ok, I've had a tweak with the feats. I've removed the Sunder line of feats and Disruptive replaced with Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialisation chain. I've also swapped out toughness although I still very much like the feat given my AC is going to be lower than the others and I'll be frontlining.
Feats I'm up in the area about I've marked with *.
Two Handed Thrower I like because as I posted above, off the one throw I can do significant damage. Unless I'm wrong on my assumptions of Overhand Chop, Power Attack, Furious Focus and Vital Strike. I just don't know the range increment of a big two handed weapon... :-/
Lunge I've left in because I like the idea of being able to extend my reach with the reach weapon, particularly if I'm taking 5' steps back against an advancing foe. Could swap out for Toughness I guess?
Improved Devastating Strike comes down to the weapon choice I guess. For a weapon that has a x3 and only crits on a 20, it's probably less value but still +6 to crit confirmation is nothing to sneeze at. Doubly so since the 19th level capstone we'll probably never reach. I still very much like Death or Glory but I'm open to alternative builds.
BTW I really like the teamwork feats. I'll suggest those to the other players and see what they think.
Any advice on the weapon? Should I stick with the Lucerne or should I go for a dwarven longhammer? If so, when? I could drop Lunge, take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (dwarven longhammer) at 3rd, Weapon Focus at 4th and Weapon Spec at 5th, pushing Two Handed thrower to 6th,Vital Strike 7th.
Here's what I have so far:
1: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will
2: Furious Focus
3: Weapon Focus
4: Two Handed Thrower*
5: Weapon Specialisation
6: Vital Strike
7: Lunge*
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Devastating Strike
10: Improved Iron Will
11: Improved Vital Strike
12: Greater Weapon Specialisation
13: Improved Devastating Strike*
14: Penetrating Strike
15: Death or Glory*
16: Greater Vital Strike
17: (open)
18: (open)
19: (open)
20: (open)
BTW I've reassigned the attributes so that I get a bit more Dex and another AoO off Combat Reflexes. I don't like the idea of trading a feat for more attributes and yes, I don't want to tank stats too badly. :)
Str: 17+2
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 9
Thanks again for the input guys. Please keep the advice coming.
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If you're still thinking of putting your first stat up into anything other than Strength, you should think of starting with an 18, and using the points there elsewhere, maybe wisdom or con. Also I think you mentioned about using the Lunge feat to provoke attacks of opportunity, which is kinda hard to do. Your range is only increased on your turn, only the penalty lasts til your next turn.
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ARgghh I'm posting at work so that makes it hard to reply, bloody proxy is doing something to my views.
I looked up the damage dice. 1d12 and 2d6 both step up to 3d6 so point taken on the feat. Fair point.
I like the look of the Fauchard and considered it long and hard. I couldn’t see a way to make it work as I’d need to invest in the Critical feats very heavily at the expense of Vital Strike/Devastating Strike combo (which is the thrust of what I was looking). While this is a very viable and awesome looking build, it just ran counter to what I was looking at. If you can show me how a sample feat progression would work, I’d consider it though?
Reasoning of Lunge: My turn, attack at 15’. Outside my turn: threaten 10’. Penalty to my AC means very little unless they have ranged weapons or reach.
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ARgghh I'm posting at work so that makes it hard to reply, bloody proxy is doing something to my views.
I looked up the damage dice. 1d12 and 2d6 both step up to 3d6 so point taken on the feat. Fair point.
I like the look of the Fauchard and considered it long and hard. I couldn’t see a way to make it work as I’d need to invest in the Critical feats very heavily at the expense of Vital Strike/Devastating Strike combo (which is the thrust of what I was looking). While this is a very viable and awesome looking build, it just ran counter to what I was looking at. If you can show me how a sample feat progression would work, I’d consider it though?
Reasoning of Lunge: My turn, attack at 15’. Outside my turn: threaten 10’. Penalty to my AC means very little unless they have ranged weapons or reach.
Just wanted to make sure you knew, I thought I had read somewhere up top that you were going to use lunge to gain an attack of opportunity, and I've seen quite a few experienced players use the feat incorrectly. You appear to be on top of it though.
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I need to disagree with a few suggestions made. First off, you do not have the skill points to be able to afford Dual Talent. If you have a 25 point buy, I would recommend this stat spread:
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 10
With this progression:
1 Fast Learner, Improvisation, Power Attack
2 Quick Draw
3 Two-handed Thrower
4 Furious Focus
5 Weapon Focus
6 Vital Strike
7 Iron Will
8 Greater Weapon Focus, trade Furious Focus for Improved Critical
9 Critical Focus
10 Weapon Specialization
11 Critical Versatility
12 Improved Vital Strike
13 Greater Weapon Specialization
I'm not actually sure if Two-handed thrower removes the penalties from throwing an inappropriate weapon, so depending on the way that works, you may want to stick with the humble spear as your weapon of choice. A d8/x3 weapon may not be as sexy as a greatsword, but it will absolutely get the job done, and Quick Draw means you can carry a brace of spears that you can launch without worry.
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The beauty of Fast Learner is getting both +1 to skills and +1 to hp as a favoured class option. Hp you got, feats and offence you got. Out of combat utility is always going to be the uphill battle with a fighter.
First level with my array means this fighter can boast 13 hp, 16+ AC, and five skill points to throw into Knowledges (handy for identifying dangerous monster), Perception (vital for spotting ambushes) and movement related skills. If you can't jump the gap to get to the enemies, you can't hit them.
In addition, Improvisation means this guy can ALWAYS roll Knowledge, UMD, Spellcraft, and anything else. If he wants to lend a hand in steering a boat, he's got +4 to Profession (sailor). If he needs to weave baskets, he's got +3 to Craft (basketweaving).
When you get as many feats as a fighter, devote some to covering out of combat utility.
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Str: 17+2
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 9
You are wasting points by having a 13 WIS and a 9 CHA. I would suggest fixing those two stats (to a 12 and 8, respectively), dropping your STR to 18, and bumping your INT to 14, so that you can take Dual Talent racial feat without losing any skill points - so that you can bump your DEX to 16 to make better use of Combat Reflexes. 14 INT gives you access to Improved Trip and Greater Trip - which are pretty awesome for a two handed fighter.
Str: 16+2
Dex: 14 +2
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Weapon Specialization is OK, but not nearly as important as Weapon Focus. Furious Focus is kinda OK from level 4-8, but not awesome: you are a fighter with full BAB, Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Training: you WILL hit on your first attack.
Here's my suggestion to give you a lot of versatility by working in Greater Trip while keeping the Vital Strike line.
1: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will
2: Furious Focus
3: Weapon Focus
4: Two Handed Thrower*
5: Combat Expertise
6: Retrain Furious Focus to Improved Trip; Greater Trip
7: Vital Strike
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Devastating Strike
10: Improved Iron Will
11: Improved Vital Strike
12: Fury's Fall
13: Improved Devastating Strike*
14: Penetrating Strike
15: Death or Glory*
16: Greater Vital Strike
17: Improved Critical
18: `Weapon Spec
19: Greater Weapon Spec
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14 INT gives you access to Improved Trip and Greater Trip - which are pretty awesome for a two handed fighter.You only need a 13 INT to unlock those feats.
Thank you Capt. Obvious.
;)I hate wasting build points on odd numbers. The 25 point buy that I suggested is efficient and gets the job done for the build he wanted, giving him a lot of options both in and out of combat. If he really wants to not dump CHA, he could go with a 10 CHA and 13 INT, but I think the extra skill points are of more value for the build.