random encounter that halted a party


Rise of the Runelords


So I've been running ROTRL and during the wander to rimeskull they had a random encounter with a lama hungerer. I rolled with it because it was a CR 15 and they are 5 level 13 characters. I figured it shouldn't be too bad. But that thing shut them down so hard. With 31 ac, dr 10, elemental resistances and immunity, Sr as well as wisdom drain and several other abilities.
How does the party even deal with that?
Normally I can give some insight afterwards so they don't get too discouraged, but I don't have a clue what they could do.
Anyone have any advice?


What is the party?
It makes a big difference as to possible tactics. AC31 should not be that hard to hit for a melee combatant I would expect an attack score of at least 22 for a front line melee (actually higher but that would seem to be a minimum), I know last week my party of Lvl 16 Cleric, Synthesist summoner, Paladin and Spellslinger with a lvl 14 Paladin Cohort went through 2 Hungerers and 4 Lamia Matriarch clerics in about 2-3 rounds with only some minor wisdom damage which 2 Restorations fixed a few spells and 2 smite evils expended. (I know they are higher level but they also had more then twice the opposition).

Myself I don't use random encounters at all as they just slow the game down but that is not the issue in this case


JohnHawkins wrote:

What is the party?

It makes a big difference as to possible tactics. AC31 should not be that hard to hit for a melee combatant I would expect an attack score of at least 22 for a front line melee (actually higher but that would seem to be a minimum), I know last week my party of Lvl 16 Cleric, Synthesist summoner, Paladin and Spellslinger with a lvl 14 Paladin Cohort went through 2 Hungerers and 4 Lamia Matriarch clerics in about 2-3 rounds with only some minor wisdom damage which 2 Restorations fixed a few spells and 2 smite evils expended. (I know they are higher level but they also had more then twice the opposition).

Myself I don't use random encounters at all as they just slow the game down but that is not the issue in this case

Presently the party is Barbarian, fighter, sorcerer, and oracle.

With 220 hp they couldnt do dmg fast enough before the wisdom drain stacked up to kill someone. No save with drain when the bab is 29 to start is crazy


Oh right there's a rogue as well.


Also restoration is not really an in battle spell. It takes 3 rounds to cast. Plus i don't understand how a party could wipe one out in 2 rounds. Unless players are super optimized or fudging their dice rolls


Oddly I would notice if they were cheating!

Yes restoration is for after the battle it meant that the party could carry on without the cleric being crippled . Apart from heal spells I don't expect to see any combat healing except paladin lay on hands

220HP only seems like a lot. For example the Paladin (weapon finesse and dervish dance with a scimitar not optimum)
When they were 13th level
Dex 24
BAB +13 , + 3 Weapon +7 Dex +7 smite -4 Power attack +2 Heroism +1 haste +29 to hit gets 4 attacks at 29/29/24/19 can reasonably expect 3 hits
d6 +2d6 holy + 7 dex +3 weapon +8 power attack +12 smite (1 level as gunslinger) 3d6 +30 damage per hit any crit is 4d6 +60.
The other melee combatants do similar , the synthesist summoner has less to hit but more natural attacks (he is somewhat broken but that is largely an excessive AC) so doing 100+hp in a round is no problem.

Your barbarian I would expect to do similar amounts if not more in rage I would expect Str 28 or so giving him with power attack and reckless abandon and Heroism and haste as buff's (if your party does not have haste that is a basic weakness the sorcerer should learn it or get a wand, or the Oracle can get Blessing of Fervor)
So 13th level barbarian +13 BAB, +9 Strength , +3 weapon, +2 heroism, +1 haste +28 to hit reckless abandon means no penalty from power attack
damage 2d6(greatsword) + 13 strength +12 power attack +3 weapon 2d6 +28 and again I would expect 3 hits , now he probably can't overcome DR unless he has a cold iron Morning star or similar so will be doing less damage with the morning star about 97 with the sword about 75.

The Rogue should be moving to flank and should get at least one hit probably has cold iron piercing (or magic bonus enough to overcome cold iron) for about 8d6 +5 33 damage
So that's half its hitpoints gone in 1 round before the Oracle, Sorcerer and fighter do anything.
The fighter will probably do less than the barbarian but still should be around 50 or 60 .
The sorcerer it depends of spells and feats he has a 35% chance to overcome SR more if he has spell penetration , but probably spent the 1st round using haste.
The Oracle is in a similar position but could go into melee if he has the right buffs but as this fight is nearly over in round one it would be a waste to cast them.

So my advised tactics
Round 1
Sorcerer Hastes party
Oracle pick flowers (I am sure he can do something useful it just depends a lot on his abilities)
Barbarian charges (if he has pounce from Greater Beast Totem then he hits for about 75 other wise 25
Fighter charges (unless he is mounted with lance of something) about 20 (if he uses a piercing weapon or is an archer more than that)
Rogue circles around for sneak attack finishes in melee range flanking may get a sneak attack, amy not if does thats some more damage
Barbarian or Fighter took an attack of opportunity closing in
Hungerer hits barbarian (biggest threat for 65 damage and 6 wisdom (all attacks hit) that hurts but is far from fatal
Hungerer has taken 45 points of damage(low estimate)
Round 2
Figher, Barbarian and rogue full attack this should be on the order of 150 pts of damage (probably more) Hungerer is no more
Oracle casts restoration/Heal on Barbarian , party move on.

Really 220 hp is not very much at this level
edit spelling


Well, let's take a look-see:

Both the fighter and the barbarian have +13 BAB. We can give the barbarian +2 from rage and the fighter +2 from being a fighter. Give them each STR 18 so they're both +4 from STR.

So with absolutely, ordinary, non-magical weapons and no buffs they're at +21 each, or hitting over half the time on their first swings. Have them Power Attacking for -4 so they can generate enough damage to get through the DR, but give them flanking (since it was only 1 creature) for +2 and +1 weapons and they're still at +20 each, still enough to hit half the time.

If they're both using one-handed weapons, damage is around 1d8 + 4(STR) + 8 (PA) + 1 (magic) + 2 (rage or fighter) = 1d8+15.

So yeah, they're going to take forever to kill the hungerer, while the sorcerer and the oracle stand around and watch them die.

Now let's assume they learned something about DR in those 13 previous levels. They both have 2-handed weapons in reserve for just such an emergency. The oracle does not sit around uselessly, but puts Greater Magic Weapon on their weapons to start their adventuring day, so they're both at +3 and bypass the cold iron DR. Since they don't have a paladin, the sorcerer has learned Versatile Weapon.

Yes, it's about teamwork. "We have no paladin to bypass DR, so the oracle and sorcerer are responsible for learning spells that will allow us to do so."

That self-same fighter and barbarian are now at +22 to hit, 2d6+21 (or more) damage, and that damage ignores DR. The sorcerer had better darned well know Haste as well, and suddenly that "impossible" 2-round kill is extraordinarily likely. They're getting in 8 swings a round, hitting perhaps 3 times per round, and averaging close to 30 damage a hit. Lamia's dead in 3 rounds even if the never crit. (And hopefully they both have Improved Critical.)

=====

In short, yes, a lamia hungerer will tear an ill-prepared party apart. But your group should have been encountering creatures with DR since Book 1, and by Book 5 it should have been a major theme: "We need to have weapons that can bypass DR, or eventually we're going to get hosed."
The oracle can also massively buff a party. Mass Bull's Strength is a free +2 to hit, +3 damage (if using two-handed weapons) for everyone. Prayer or even Bless would help.

If the fighters aren't ready for "We have to do massive damage fast," and the oracle is, "I heal, I don't buff," and the sorcerer is, "I blast, I don't use controls or buffs," the party is indeed in trouble.

=====

Finally, Wisdom drain doesn't kill people. They just stand around like vegetables. So if someone drops, Restoration puts their Wisdom back up to full, and they'll be back in the fight. THAT will change the dynamic immensely!


I tend to assume by 13th level that they will have a +4 strength item or the Bull's strength spell and that the Barbarian will remember to RAGE!!
It is DR 10 Cold Iron and Piercing so slightly harder to overcome unless you have a Paladin, Archer , or someone is using piercing melee weapons


A big part of the fight would depend on the party figuring out its weaknesses. If they make the appropriate knowledge check they will be able to adjust their tactics right off the bat. If they don't make the knowledge check and aren't figuring out what works against an encounter like this, they will be in trouble with this kind of monster.

But first of all, IIRC only Constitution drain is lethal. Wisdom drain will put someone into a coma, but won't kill them.

Spells like displacement are a standard way of reducing the number of hits a monster scores, by creating a miss chance. This is especially useful when fighting something that does more than just hp damage on a hit. Get potions of it.

A +3 weapon will get past DR/cold iron. The piercing thing is easy enough; typically the best backup weapon is a cold iron morning star anyway.

If the sorcerer is a blaster he can use cold spells, which the Hungerer has no resistance to.

A 13th level barbarian while raging will probably have a STR bonus to hit of +9 or +10, a +13 from BAB, and about a +3 from a magic weapon. Maybe Weapon Focus or other boosts. So he should have a +25 or so to hit, -4 if he uses power attack. So he should be hitting 75% of the time on his first swing without power attack, or 55% with power attack. His greatsword will do something like 2d6+30 and with haste going he will probably be hitting roughly 2-3 hits per round once he is full-attacking. Cast enlarge person to boost the damage a bit more.

The fighter won't do quite as much damage but will have a better AC. Hard to say since there are so many different ways to build a fighter.

The Rogue will sneak attack for +7d6 and if he is a TWF rogue with +3 shortwords he gets past the DR and flanking he still has a decent chance to hit. If he can feint he only needs to hit touch AC of 29. Cast greater invisibility on him to make the hungerer flat-footed to him every round.

The big trick for a rogue here is the Flame Fountain Firework. For 1 minute he can use it to attack like a weapon against the hungerer's touch AC. It does 1d8 fire damage, so he will lose 10 points of damage per hit (fire resistance), but he will score hits every time for 1d8+7d6 damage (average 28, -10 fire resistance or 18 per hit). It's not even a magic item.

If the sorcerer or oracle can hit him with a save or suck condition that deprives actions, like making him staggered or dazed, then the fight should be over pretty fast. The hungerer has a fairly weak fort save. The SR is the main obstacle here.

Make no mistake; this should be a tough fight, one that uses up a lot of resources. But it is quite winnable.

Edit:

NobodysHome wrote:
...but puts Greater Magic Weapon on their weapons to start their adventuring day, so they're both at +3 and bypass the cold iron DR.

FYI this doesn't work. The bonus from GMW specifically doesn't allow you to bypass material DR - it says so in the description of the spell. You need to get to +3 another way, either by having an actual +3 weapon or an ability like a Paladin's divine bond.

The real question is: does the group figure out that the critter has DR cold iron and piercing? If they don't and they keep trying to just whale on it with whatever they happen to be carrying, it can get ugly.


Peet wrote:

Make no mistake; this should be a tough fight, one that uses up a lot of resources. But it is quite winnable.

Edit:

NobodysHome wrote:
...but puts Greater Magic Weapon on their weapons to start their adventuring day, so they're both at +3 and bypass the cold iron DR.
FYI this doesn't work. The bonus from GMW specifically doesn't allow you to bypass material DR - it says so in the description of the spell. You need to get to +3 another way, either by having an actual +3 weapon or an ability like a Paladin's divine bond.

Thanks -- you learn something new every day on these boards! We've never used GMW because we almost always have a paladin, but it seemed like the best bet.

And yes, a CR 15 encounter for a group of level 13 PCs SHOULD be an epic, "We need to rest after this one fight," encounter.

I think killing them instead of disabling them on the Wisdom drain was what put it over the top, though...

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't use random encounters for this reason: they can just as easily produce a TPK as they can a cupcake fight. Also, I don't like pointless encounters don't that push the story forward in some way.

-Skeld


This is awesome info. Thanks very much for your help. I will certainly bring this to the party to give them advice. Yeah they did go into the fight with the 'i smash, i heal, i blast.' Kind of thing so they will have to reassess tactics.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How much of an opportunity did they get to solve/avoid/circumvent the encounter without fighting it (at least not under conditions that don't favor them?) How much did they capitalize on these opportunities?

Stuff like foreshadowing about a critter of this kind's power and such should can be important, even for a random encounter.

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