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The Psion can nova for 24 rounds a day-- we already went over this, how many times have you gotten through more than 24 rounds of combat in a single day in game?
Particularly when novaing ends combats quicker.
24 rounds of combat is pretty high.
But considering that there are... *does some math* 9600 rounds during a day (assuming a 16 hour day), those 24 rounds of activity probably won't be enough. An yes, there is a 15 minute workday, but that is definitely a case where what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Of course, this also presupposes that casting 1 spell per round is enough to get the job done during combat. IME, quicken rods, time stop, and the occasional contingency are essential for powering out low level buffs and winning combats by providing extra actions to a caster.
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Arguing about other situations (which the Psion isn't any less equipped to deal with than the Wizard by the way) doesn't invalidate the brokenness of casting all 9th level spells in combat.
If your argument is (as it was previously) that a psion is more akin to a sorcerer than a wizard, than arguing that a psion is just as equipped as a wizard, when sorcerers are less well equipped than wizards fails.
And, in combat, the only spell needed by a wizard is simulacrum cast repeatedly substantially before combat.
Of course, then there's all the things that the summon monster spells can summon and do effectively that the astral construct cannot... which is a very great many things... including having more than one creature on the field at the same time. While the astral construct is a construct (which is nice) and can customize its powers (which is nice), it cannot really hope to match the power of the monsters that can be summoned.
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The situation is combat.That is a very narrow situation. I don't think anyone realized that your standards for balance were so narrow.
It also seems that his definition of "combat" is "when exactly two people of equal level stand in an open field and fire cannons back and forth. Dodging not allowed".
Look, the problem isn't that psionics is imbalanced, it's that Nathanael prefers "gladiator" games, where every creature starts out in combat unbuffed and then starts firing away while stuck in a 30 foot arena. Of course psionics seems unbalanced; in that style of play buffs, preparation, and creativity play no role so the wizard is seriously hamstrung.
There's no point in this argument because one person in the thread is very obviously not playing the same game.
Ugh, thanks for bringing up Similacrum. Its the be all and end all to all arguments.
Apparently nothing else in the game needs to have any limits or balance because Simulacrum.
You win, you got it, Simulacrum exists erego nothing else in the game matters and there's no way for anything else to be overpowered.
Rather than addressing the issue, just mention the Simulacrum boogey man and drop the mic. . .
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The Psion can nova for 24 rounds a day-- we already went over this, how many times have you gotten through more than 24 rounds of combat in a single day in game?
Particularly when novaing ends combats quicker.
24 rounds of combat is pretty high.
But considering that there are... *does some math* 9600 rounds during a day (assuming a 16 hour day), those 24 rounds of activity probably won't be enough. An yes, there is a 15 minute workday, but that is definitely a case where what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Of course, this also presupposes that casting 1 spell per round is enough to get the job done during combat. IME, quicken rods, time stop, and the occasional contingency are essential for powering out low level buffs.
There's also a running assumption in NL's posts that the Psion never bothers buffing because he's just going to pour all of his PP into big blasts. Lord help him if ever fails an initiative check. Or needs to deal with a non-combat encounter....
Ugh, thanks for bringing up Similacrum. Its the be all and end all to all arguments.
Apparently nothing else in the game needs to have any limits or balance because Simulacrum.
You win, you got it, Simulacrum exists erego nothing else in the game matters and there's no way for anything else to be overpowered.
Rather than addressing the issue, just mention the Simulacrum boogey man and drop the mic. . .
You literally missed the post immediately before yours that talks about summon monster.
EDIT: I mean, the thread is hopping, so I can understand missing it, but the post is false because I literally just talked about something else.
Now you're just putting words in my mouth.
That's another problem with the Psion which I pointed out earlier that he has more spells known available for non-combat because he needs to expend fewer spells known on combat spells than Sorcerers do.
Ugh, thanks for bringing up Similacrum. Its the be all and end all to all arguments.
Apparently nothing else in the game needs to have any limits or balance because Simulacrum.
You win, you got it, Simulacrum exists erego nothing else in the game matters and there's no way for anything else to be overpowered.
Rather than addressing the issue, just mention the Simulacrum boogey man and drop the mic. . .
You literally missed the post immediately before yours that talks about summon monster.
EDIT: I mean, the thread is hopping, so I can understand missing it, but the post is false because I literally just talked about something else.
And you skipped over the problem with Psions nova capabilities and redirected to a different comparison.
I see how this post is going, its everyone in here versus me, and several people are mis-representing, making claims about my games, and insulting me.
What no one is doing is providing a reasonable counter to my theory that novas are problems and that Psions are too good at doing them.
I'm not sure who you're responding to (since you didn't quote it), however I'm going to presume you were responding to me (as my post was the last one before that).
If your argument is (as it was previously) that a psion is more akin to a sorcerer than a wizard, than arguing that a psion is just as equipped as a wizard, when sorcerers are less well equipped than wizards fails.
Now you're just putting words in my mouth.
That's another problem with the Psion which I pointed out earlier that he has more spells known available for non-combat because he needs to expend fewer spells known on combat spells than Sorcerers do.
No, sir, I am not.
At a minimum this suggests that the Psion should be compared to the Sorcerer rather than the specialist Wizard. I expect the comparison of balance doesn't hold up as favorably for Arcane casters when that's accounted for.
I was not trying to misrepresent your position in any way.
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@more than 20 rounds of combat in a day-- have you ever seen it? Regardless of how many encounters I try to get a party to do I have never seen them total more than 20 rounds of combat in a day.
Regarding this one, my group has this ALL the time. Probably a solid majority in frequency even.
Hope that helps.
@Tacticslion-- no, its Ssalarn who is completely misrepresenting me and basically just insulting me or trolling.
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If you posit that novas are a problem, then Ssalarn says your assumption is that all that psions do is nova, I don't see how that misrepresents your argument.
@more than 20 rounds of combat in a day-- have you ever seen it? Regardless of how many encounters I try to get a party to do I have never seen them total more than 20 rounds of combat in a day.Regarding this one, my group has this ALL the time. Probably a solid majority in frequency even.
Hope that helps.
I'd be interested to know how they get to that number of rounds and at what level its happening, and the level of CR you are combating.
Outside of perhaps a dungeon crawl I have never seen it happen.
How far past 20 rounds/ day did you get?
And you skipped over the problem with Psions nova capabilities and redirected to a different comparison.
I see how this post is going, its everyone in here versus me, and several people are mis-representing, making claims about my games, and insulting me.
What no one is doing is providing a reasonable counter to my theory that novas are problems and that Psions are too good at doing them.
If you include me, I would like to state that I'm not "versus" you in any antagonistic sense.
I'm asking you to explain your problems and let others counter them. You may then counter these arguments with reason and by showing how things function. This is reasonable debate, and how education (on all sides) is happening.
Further, this is not the "Everyone v. Nathaneal Love" thread, this is the "3.5 PSIONICS: EXPERIENCE, MATH, AND BALANCE (OR LACK THEREOF)" thread. Currently, you are the only one that is engaged on your side of the conversation. If you are running out of arguments, I suggest requesting and inviting others that you know of that are aligned with your side of the arguments on these forums (there are quite a few, it seems), to bolster the view that arcane magic is less powerful than psionics.
As to the specifics, you are currently engaging in a conversation with Ssalarn about nova-ing and how that functions. I wasn't going to enter that argument.
I brought up two additional examples of wizardly power: simulacrum and summon monster and, compared to the psionic equivalents (absolutely nothing at all, and astral construct, respectively), those are distinctly more powerful.
Hence... I brought up two more effects that are more powerful in casting than in psionics, and made mention of your own comparison between psions and sorcerers. That is, I believe, the summation of my additions so far.
You did, of course, bring up a different problem with comparing the sorcerer and the psion, i.e. the disparity between the number of powers and spells known; you were implying the specificity of spells works against the sorcerer's favor in that regard, however with a limited selection of powers known, a given psion is not going to be as prepared as a given wizard for all situations.
@Tacticslion-- no, its Ssalarn who is completely misrepresenting me and basically just insulting me or trolling.
Understood. Again, as this thread is moving quickly, I can understand the responding to something that has passed.
My apologies, and consider the previous aspect of the argument rescinded. :)
EDIT: eliminating a triple post for the sake of a double post. The lesser of two weasels.
@more than 20 rounds of combat in a day-- have you ever seen it? Regardless of how many encounters I try to get a party to do I have never seen them total more than 20 rounds of combat in a day.Regarding this one, my group has this ALL the time. Probably a solid majority in frequency even.
Hope that helps.
I'd be interested to know how they get to that number of rounds and at what level its happening, and the level of CR you are combating.
Outside of perhaps a dungeon crawl I have never seen it happen.
How far past 20 rounds/ day did you get?
Me, too, actually! Sounds very interesting.
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@more than 20 rounds of combat in a day-- have you ever seen it? Regardless of how many encounters I try to get a party to do I have never seen them total more than 20 rounds of combat in a day.Regarding this one, my group has this ALL the time. Probably a solid majority in frequency even.
Hope that helps.
I'd be interested to know how they get to that number of rounds and at what level its happening, and the level of CR you are combating.
Outside of perhaps a dungeon crawl I have never seen it happen.
How far past 20 rounds/ day did you get?
Our groups general preference is to avoid the 15 minute adventuring day.
It happens at all levels, tho is less likely at the very lowest (1st-2nd) due to lack of resources.
CR's vary, Levels vary, sometimes they are dungeon crawls, other times not.
*edit* and my apologies, but this 'way' is the one i am used to for years. I'm not sure what we do that is different detail wise. hmm.
well. We tend to follow the narrative flow or character drive when determining if we continue or pull back to rest. Time constraints, kidnappings, event prevention are all examples that will lead my players to press on even when the bigger gun options have been exhausted.
If there is a specific bit or two of information you would like, i can try to give that to you.
*edit2* An actual recent example during part of The Savage Tide, in chapter Into The Maw the group has been through approximately 60 rounds of combat so far their current adventuring day. Between initial entry, 1st contacts, bargaining with several faction leaders, strikes against other factions, ambushes by yet other factions, and a failed parley attempt vs a fallen angel.
They are currently locked in a battle on a bridge over lava that has taken over 20 rounds on it's own due to adds, an ambush by an assassin during (including the retreat/chasing of by two pc's), adds due to a runner getting help, and yet more adds due to the pursuers being dragged into another ambush.
Currently party level 17, 5 pc's.
And you skipped over the problem with Psions nova capabilities and redirected to a different comparison.
I see how this post is going, its everyone in here versus me, and several people are mis-representing, making claims about my games, and insulting me.
What no one is doing is providing a reasonable counter to my theory that novas are problems and that Psions are too good at doing them.
If you include me, I would like to state that I'm not "versus" you in any antagonistic sense.
I'm asking you to explain your problems and let others counter them. You may then counter these arguments with reason and by showing how things function. This is reasonable debate, and how education (on all sides) is happening.
Further, this is not the "Everyone v. Nathaneal Love" thread, this is the "3.5 PSIONICS: EXPERIENCE, MATH, AND BALANCE (OR LACK THEREOF)" thread. Currently, you are the only one that is engaged on your side of the conversation. If you are running out of arguments, I suggest requesting and inviting others that you know of that are aligned with your side of the arguments on these forums (there are quite a few, it seems), to bolster the view that arcane magic is less powerful than psionics.
As to the specifics, you are currently engaging in a conversation with Ssalarn about nova-ing and how that functions. I wasn't going to enter that argument.
I brought up two additional examples of wizardly power: simulacrum and summon monster and, compared to the psionic equivalents (absolutely nothing at all, and astral construct, respectively), those are distinctly more powerful.
Hence... I brought up two more effects that are more powerful in casting than in psionics, and made mention of your own comparison between psions and sorcerers. That is, I believe, the summation of my additions so far.
You did, of course, bring up a different problem with comparing the sorcerer and the psion, i.e. the disparity between the number of powers and spells...
I'll have to look at summoned monsters versus astral constructs in more detail to see which wins out-- I know the summoned creatures have a few standouts with spell like effects, but the limits on alignment may be a limiting factor there. I'll have to actually look at it.
As far as spells known and non-combat spells--
Sorcerer and Psion both have a major advantage in that they get to cast these spells spontaneously, whereas Wizards have to completely anticipate needing a specific number of each spell per day.
Disregarding that difference and comparing the Psion to Sorcerer directly--
Psion starts out knowing 2 more 1st-9th level powers than Sorcerer.
Sorcerer gets 0th level spells and Psion does not.
Sorcerer needs to spend at least one of each spell level on a combat spell however, to be able to effectively use all of his available spell slots in combat.
Psion meanwhile, can get by with fewer powers known devoted to those same types of spells-- a 1st, a 5th, and a 9th and he can cast a wide array at every possible level of power point investment.
Under this assumption sorcerer has 34-9= 25 available utility spell slots (plus cantrips)
Psion meanwhile has 36-33= 30 available spells known for utility spells
I see this as a distinct advantage in favor of Psion knowing 5 more non-damage dealing spells.
Edit-- as to Simulacrum-- I find its better to leave that spell out of any discussion such as this as it has been the topic of multiple multi-hundred post contentious arguments in an of itself.
Disregarding that difference and comparing the Psion to Sorcerer directly--Psion starts out knowing 2 more 1st-9th level powers than Sorcerer.
Sorcerer gets 0th level spells and Psion does not.
Sorcerer needs to spend at least one of each spell level on a combat spell however, to be able to effectively use all of his available spell slots in combat.
Psion meanwhile, can get by with fewer powers known devoted to those same types of spells-- a 1st, a 5th, and a 9th and he can cast a wide array at every possible level of power point investment.
Hmm, my thoughts on this part...
Using metamagic feats a sorcerer does not Need to spend a slot on a combat spell per spell level. (Heighten, Empower, etc) and many styles do function around that tactic. I have found that sorcs(in PF) can actually nova (for damage etc) better then the psions from 3.5 due to bloodline adders and other things. (i am unfamiliar with dreamscarred versions but used the 3.5 psionics for several years in a Dark Sun Campaign)) They also have a favored class bonus they can use to get an extra spell known per character level. (if human)
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@NL
The problem is not that I am misrepresenting you, the problem is that you are failing to adequately represent yourself. I resent being called a troll by the way; that's the refuge of a man who can't support his argument and so tries to impugn the character of the person poking holes in his shakey thesis.
Read your own words in this thread free of the context of the things you feel but didn't express, you'll see that I merely wrote the natural culminations of your own flawed arguments.
Tacticslion (whom I greatly respect) has quietly been throwing you life-lines and trying to help you express yourself. He's a nicer person than me. I correct by pointing out your mistakes and trusting you to rise to the occasion.
You've said that the Psion has 24 9th level powers and novas immensely. This means, by default, that you're saying he's not buffing and shoring himself up with his lower level powers (something every real caster actually does).
You sneered at and dismissed the myriad lower level spells that increase miss chances, boost saves, and force enemies to burn action economy, staples of the caster. This shows you have no respect for the nuance of the game and little understanding of where balance and power actually lie.
Now, instead of hiding behind name-calling, address the points. Is the Psion a glass cannon waiting for one poor roll on initiative to collapse and praying he can spray his high level abilities first, or is he a complex character with a mix of abilities of varying strengths?
What you have proven and others have tried to gently nudge you towards and I'm just going to flat out tell you, is that your arguments make it sound like you don't know the first thing about playing casters. Instead of spewing poorly formed talking points and countering facts and math with your religiously held opinion, rise to the challenge and present a real argument, accede when someone makes a good point like the spells SD brought up earlier instead of acting like a dismissive t&&@ and reference actual psionic abilities that you think create these perceived imbalances.
You've said that the Psion has 24 9th level powers and novas immensely. This means, by default, that you're saying he's not buffing and shoring himself up with his lower level powers (something every real caster actually does).
You sneered at and dismissed the myriad lower level spells that increase miss chances, boost saves, and force enemies to burn action economy, staples of the caster. This shows you have no respect for the nuance of the game and little understanding of where balance and power actually lie.
Now, instead of hiding behind name-calling, address the points. Is the Psion a glass cannon waiting for one poor roll on initiative to collapse and praying he can spray his high level abilities first, or is he a complex character with a mix of abilities of varying strengths?
What you have proven and others have tried to gently nudge you towards and I'm just going to flat out tell you, is that your arguments make it sound like you don't know the first thing about playing casters.
This. This. This. This. THIS.
Your arguments make it clear that the only kind of spellcaster you've ever played or ever seen played is a fireball-spewing Evoker whose only recourse is to blow up the enemy before he can make a move and when that fails just attempt to pile on yet more damage or cower behind the Fighter. This is the least complex and least effective method of playing a caster, of almost ANY stripe, and leaves a great deal of finesse and subtlety to be desired.
And this is speaking as someone who loves the hell out of playing an Evoker/Kinetecist/fireball-chucker caster and throwing D6s like it's party night at the casino.
But you know what? Maybe that was our mistake.
We came into this conversation assuming that you understood WHAT made Wizards and Sorcerers awesome, and that even knowing that you still thought Psionicists were better.
Maybe we shouldn't have assumed that. After all, everyone knows what they say about what happens when you assume.
But also because it's suddenly very clear that either you have NO IDEA just what makes the Wizard the best class in the damn game, or your idea of what that is is so completely backwards from everyone else in this conversation that it comes out to the same result.
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Because I can't help but be a little contrarian, and do try to at least mentally challenge accepted conventions. I'm not sure it's necessarily fair to claim that Nathanael Love doesn't know "how to play a caster." I understand that there are some accepted conventions on how to play a caster in a setting/table-neutral environment.
However, if there is anything experience has taught me it's that the game varies significantly (as in: an amount that matters, not as a simile for large) from table to table, and that this variance is often relatively significant. I hope I'm not mistaking Nathanael for someone else, but I do believe he has stated in the past that his games are heavily focused on combat. I think it came up in one of those "fighters/rogues are bad" threads.
Now, while only using blasting/save or suck spells is an inefficient style of play, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's ineffective, especially within a game focused on combat. This is 3.5 we're talking about, where even the bad options for spell-casters are often more than enough.
With those assumptions (combat focused/blasting and save or suck/novaing sustainable/very limited OOC) psions are incredibly potent casters.
Do I think that's enough to declare the entire system "broken?" Of course not. That's a ton of assumptions/prescriptions for psions being broken. It's overly focused on anecdotal evidence, and perhaps a misunderstanding about what makes casters powerful. I'm not sure the claims are entirely without basis, though.
If you isolate the claims to that specific scenario, it approaches something close to being valid.
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I'll give you that. Comparing blasting to blasting can very easily lead to the impression that Psionics is immensely better than traditional Arcane casting.
But the fact is that if that's the idea one has of the best a caster can pull off and that a spell is irrelevant the instant a superior damage-dealing version comes on the scene, it explains a lot of why some of the best spells in the game are so casually being brushed off - because they don't have obvious, immediate, hit-points-a-droppin' visible results.
And it also leads to the impression that if someone were to show them a caster being played more intelligently/more efficiently, they'd either not realize just HOW it's more efficient - because the caster themselves is not actively removing HP from the enemies, most of the time, but rather dramatically reducing the enemies' own ability to remove the HP of the party and making it easier for the Fighter/Rogue/etc. members of the caster's party to remove the enemies' HP - or be utterly flabbergasted at how a mage can dismantle an entire encounter without throwing a single point of HP damage. (Say for example how my Sorcerer disabled the final encounter in Chapter Two of Council of Thieves with nothing more than two walls of shadow and a haste spell, then setting loose the Rogue, Barbarian, and enlarged Warpriest [who admittedly had a couple of her own buffs up as well, but nothing active on the field].)
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What really did it for me was when NL scoffed at Haste. Umm, excuse me? Casting Haste is ALWAYS an excellent use of your turn, particularly if you're interested in dealing damage. Take the damage from each of those extra attacks at full BAB from each party member from each round of combat that Haste is in effect. Add all that damage together. That's effectively how much damage you just did, by casting a 3rd-level spell. Show me another spell or power that does potentially hundreds of damage per round for CL/rounds. And that's on top of the speed buff and minor to hit/AC/reflex save buffs. When I was playing my wizard in Carrion Crown, I typically prepared 2-3 Hastes per day, and often found myself using my bonded ring to cast it again.
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Heroism isn't a big group buff. It affects one target and its a +2. That's virtually meaningless when fighting creatures with 40 AC.
This is why you're so hard to talk to. You don't understand how this game works at all. A +2 bonus is just as meaningful at level 100 as it is at level 1 because it's +10% on the RNG (d20). The way math scales in this game, every +1 to hit is offset by a +1 to AC.
Heroism is a staple buff as soon as it comes online because it's freaking amazing. Greater heroism even moreso, but it's balanced by the fact it's got a muuuuch shorter duration.
I'll put it another, simpler way, so that there is no confusion.
If you have a 50% chance to hit the orc at 1st level, +2 more makes it 60%. If you have a 50% chance to hit the pit fiend at 17th level, +2 more makes it 60%.
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Heroism isn't a big group buff. It affects one target and its a +2. That's virtually meaningless when fighting creatures with 40 AC.This is why you're so hard to talk to. You don't understand how this game works at all. A +2 bonus is just as meaningful at level 100 as it is at level 1 because it's +10% on the RNG (d20). The way math scales in this game, every +1 to hit is offset by a +1 to AC.
Heroism is a staple buff as soon as it comes online because it's freaking amazing. Greater heroism even moreso, but it's balanced by the fact it's got a muuuuch shorter duration.
I'll put it another, simpler way, so that there is no confusion.
If you have a 50% chance to hit the orc at 1st level, +2 more makes it 60%. If you have a 50% chance to hit the pit fiend at 17th level, +2 more makes it 60%.
Oh, and I forgot to mention, heroism isn't a "group buff" but it lasts a long time and uses low-level spell slots, which means it's very efficient to cast on everyone in the party early on (similar to greater magic weapon).
Being able to get the same or better results for progressively less and less of your overall resources is an edge that core casters have been dangling over the heads of psionicists for years.
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The Psion can nova for 24 rounds a day-- we already went over this, how many times have you gotten through more than 24 rounds of combat in a single day in game?
Particularly when novaing ends combats quicker.
1. As a wizard I can "nova" OUT OF COMBAT to win IN COMBAT (say hello to my simulacrum solars, if you kill me I resurrect from my clone, these are the magic items I made in my timeless demiplane, and did I mention that I have permanent arcane sight up so I know whether or not I want to auto-dispel everything with disjunction or if I just want to drop a quickened dispel magic with my lesser rod and strip you of your highest level buff).
2. A wizard can nova for 24 rounds of combat...with most of it in a single round. I demonstrated this waaaay back in the day (I actually used an NPC-wealth sorcerer to show how freaking terrifying an arcane caster going nova is, and it also involved plenty of 3rd-6th level spells including stinking cloud).
Time stop (averages 3 rounds)->spam 6th-7th level spells->Time stop->spam 6th-7th level spells->spam 6th-7th level spells->Time stop->spam...
You can get 6-20 (average 12) rounds worth of actions on your turn at 17th level, dropping spells like black tentacles, cloudkill, stinking cloud, delayed blast fireballs, summoning spells, wall spells, etc. When the "dust settles" all of a sudden your enemies find themselves making tons of saving throws, being unable to move, and surrounded by enemies.
The Psion can nova for 24 rounds a day-- we already went over this, how many times have you gotten through more than 24 rounds of combat in a single day in game?
Particularly when novaing ends combats quicker.
Combats in my game seem to average about 10 rounds per combat. If I run multiple combats in a given adventure, it's trivial to exceed 24 rounds / day.
When one of the complaints against psionics is the ability to use armor...
I'd be curious to know what Nathanial thinks of Mage Armor. For the cost of a 'useless' first level spell, you get scaling, weightless armor with no armor check penalty or encumbrance or spell failure chance, all for a grand total of 0 copper pieces. And it's better than 'actual' armor, since it works against incorporeal attacks and has none of the penalties normal armor does.
I mentioned this previously, and, while I disagree with them, he does have some reasons.
Mage Armor is a +4 (though it does last all day). Shield is limited to rounds/use, and provides a total of +4. In total, this is +8.
Full plate and heavy shield provide +10.
[<I, TL, adds: Tower Shield can push that up to +12>]
(Though your touch AC will be literally the worst thing.)
Hypothetically, you can shove the power of the armor and shield each up by +5 more to net an additional +10 (so +22 or +32).
That's nice, though it's really hecka-expensive to get anywhere near there, and it seems, to me, that the the effort involved in doing so is substantially outweighed by what is gained, as well as being very bypassable by way of touch attacks. (Two CR 3 shadows and ~3 rounds later...)
((Meanwhile, a second level wizard spell could handle this problem.))
But, especially if you're running anything pre-published, are rushed, don't fully know all of the (new) rules (i.e. psionics) at the time, and/or have a party composed of non-clerics or other similarly "boring" classes, it can be difficult to spring what amounts to "free TPK" on your party of players aka "my friends". In any one of those situations, it can be a knife-edge balance as to how you challenge folk without killing them. This can lead to unpleasant or frustrating experiences as a GM if your encounters are trashed, and you find little recourse other than "death to you all" - not necessarily anyone's fault, per se, but a difficult situation nonetheless.
I'd still exempt the system of being inherently problematic, but certainly there are many situations in which people have a difficult time with it due to, well, a number of reasons. Those should be addressed and reexamined, however.
EDIT: new post, below, for the clarity
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EDIT: put this in a new post.
...
...
... droppin' it down for readability...
Oh! By-the-by! The summon monster suite becomes ever-more versatile as I'm looking at it!
(Read: stuff I once knew, but had forgotten.)
At first level, you can summon mini flying paladins (or blackguards/antipaladins)!
At third level, you can summon relentless invulnerable (for their level) unstoppable hordes that can see whatever the lighting conditions!
At fifth level, you can summon a horde of them, or a powerful, fast fire-breathing durable assassin, a free melee'r+stinking cloud, small elementals, a (celestial) hippogriff, and the normal suite of mini flying, swimming, crawling, etc. paladins or antipaladins.
At seventh level, you can a ton of spells, depending on what you need (plus some energy-damage support), a flying terror, or super-fast melee'r
At ninth level, you can get multiples of the lower levels (as always), but have access to a really powerful damage+debuff+allied melee'r, medium elementals, another terrifying assassin, at-will Aid, Continual Flame, Detect Evil, and Message (as well as aura of menace and melee power), and the normal suite of paladins/blackguards.
At eleventh level, you can drop the worst thing on your foes, a really tough reach-melee build, paralysis in a melee-ally, or at-will blur, charm person, gust of wind, mirror image, and wind wall; and two lighting bolts and cure serious wounds (who can also function as the wind, a free translator, or a solid melee attacker.
At thirteenth level, you can more of those, as well as two different assassins, huge elementals, an assassin that also makes food and water, wine, anything (though vegetable matter is permanent), persistent image, and wind walk (and some decent melee, speed, and wind-stuff, though "sadly" it can't grant wishes. :D); oh, and aid, blur, command, detect magic, dispel magic, gust of wind, hold person, light, magic circle against evil, magic missile (CL 8), and see invisibility (with three lightning bolts, a fear aura, lay on hands, true seeing, and speak with animals for good measure)
At fifteenth level, you can get a bright light assassin, mirror image, telekinesis, and heroism (as well as an unfortunately-long and resource-intensive three-round ritual that is devastating in power), TRICERATOPS PALADIN, or a free bard (get it?! it's a pun! I'm so clever!*) who comes with three darknesses, hallucinatory terrains, knocks; and one charm person, speak with animals, and speak with plants
*
At seventeenth level, you can get bonus sorcerer (with free flying and poison attack, not to mention detecting all the alignments and thoughts), limitless fireballs (and detect thoughts, hold monster, wall of force; up to three neutralize wounds, cure critical, and remove disease; up to one heal - and who says wizard's can't heal?! - lay on hands, protective aura, and speak with animals-via-translation), elder elementals!, detect the alignments, limitless magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, sleep, free chaos hammer, unholy blight, and stench, and OH, CRAP, IT'S SPIDERS ALL THE WAY DOWN, as well as the standard flying/swimming palaguards.
That's... a lot of spells the wizard suddenly doesn't need prepared or to have scrolls of.
EDIT 2: You know what I just noticed? The fact that, if I got my math right, you get, like, 46 different spells that you gain access to by this suite of nine. 46-9 = 35. Huh. If you really want it, you just got 35 free additional spells. That's... one more than the sorcerer knows at 20th level... and a wizard can access them all at 17th level, when the sorcerer has only 31 spells.
(Of course, that's not factoring in the fact that you can literally summon a free sorcerer* - who also has healing spells - or a free bard**.)
* 9th level; Typical spell-selection of said sorcerer:
Typical Spells Known (6/7/7/7/4; save DC 13 + spell level)
0—cure minor wounds, daze, disrupt undead, light, obscuring mist, ray of frost, read magic, resistance; 1st—endure elements, mage armor, protection from chaos, true strike, wind wall; 2nd—cure moderate wounds, eagle’s splendor, scorching ray, silence; 3rd—gaseous form, magic circle against evil, summon monster III; 4th— charm monster, freedom of movement.
** 6th level; Typical spell-selection of said bard:
Typical Bard Spells Known (3/4/3; save DC 14 + spell level)
0— dancing lights, daze, detect magic, lullaby, mage hand, read magic; 1st— charm person, cure light wounds, identify, sleep; 2nd—hold person, invisibility, sound burst.
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Responding to from here.
That's considerably balanced by the fact that psions are the ultimate stealth armored caster. They have no components to their spells, can cast in armor if willing to make the feat investment, and aren't stopped by silence.
Truth be told, I have actually very rarely seen silence actually matter since the spell allows a Will save to negate its affecting a creature and is only possessed by bards and clerics in core, who are both more MAD than most other casters (bards and clerics both have far less incentive to have a really high key casting stat than most arcanists).
I find silence more frequently used as a utility spell than a combat spell for that very reason. Preventing noise and stuff. Even when you make silencing traps or areas, magic item effects with silence (such as traps/magic rooms) only have a DC 14 (unless you're using heighten which is prohibitively expensive to do regularly (especially if, like me, you actually try to keep the resources of antagonists to a reasonable level as opposed to pretending non-PCs have access to infinite funding from the plane of money).
Most of my psionicists don't really wear armor either. I did have one that did once (didn't even take the proficiency feats for it) because she was diguising herself as a warrior (literally playing against the mage vs warrior trope). She carried a pole-arm for looks (which she likewise lacked proficiency in). It was funny, but made her really weaker than she needed to be (lots of check penalties and it effectively barred her from using any powers that required attack rolls, as even a touch attack is useless when you're adding the check penalties from heavy armor and/or a shield to your roll).
In general, I prefer inertial armor which is where a lot of my power points go. See, like Ssalarn points out, a lot of energy is invested into surviving. That means stuff like inertial armor, force screen, specified energy adaptation, concealing amorpha, and stuff like that. Stuff that is pretty critical for squishy d6 HD classes and costs a lot of PP to keep relevant.
Even still, I usually end up investing in armors anyway because of staple magic effects. Of course, I'm not complaining about it because I do the same with my wizards. Never leave home without your mithral buckler and heavy fortitifaction wizard armors, you know. ;)
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Oh! By-the-by! The summon monster suite becomes ever-more versatile as I'm looking at it!
(Read: stuff I once knew, but had forgotten.)At first level, you can summon mini flying paladins (or blackguards/antipaladins)!
This tickles me so much because in this game I played in recently we had a summoner. The summoner's answer to combat was celestial eagles. Lots and lots of celestial eagles. It was hilarious actually. It was literally eagle + smite + full attack. Orc kills an eagle, oh look, a new eagle! :P
In one of the fights I think she and her eagles took on most of the enemies. She even took down the fleeing ones, 'cause you don't outrun an eagle while staggered man, you just don't. Angry...angry heaven eagles. XD
It tickled me to no end because I was playing a 1st level vampire warrior (1 NPC class + a +1 CR template) in the game and was pretty happy when I managed to catch a bad-guy in the dark where I had the advantage at swordplay (darkvision, yeah!), then leap out of a window to join the fight, only to find the summoner recreating a certain Alfred Hitchcock film and watching orcs fighting for their lives!
I lol'd so hard. :P
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At seventeenth level, you can get bonus sorcerer (with free flying and poison attack, not to mention detecting all the alignments and thoughts), limitless fireballs (and detect thoughts, hold monster, wall of force; up to three neutralize wounds, cure critical, and remove disease; up to one heal - and who says wizard's can't heal?! - lay on hands, protective aura, and speak with animals-via-translation), elder elementals!, detect the alignments, limitless magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, sleep, free chaos hammer, unholy blight, and stench, and OH, CRAP, IT'S SPIDERS ALL THE WAY DOWN, as well as the standard flying/swimming palaguards.
Ray of Enfeeblement was also better in 3.5 because it didn't allow a save, just the attack roll. It's been pretty useless since it came to Pathfinder (single target, short range, requires an attack roll, and it's fortitude halves an already small penalty? pfft, no).
While we're talking about the awesomeness that is summoning, I'd like to chime in that even in Pathfinder, it's entirely possible for a 17th level cleric to gate in a Solar as it's b!$**. Now THAT is going nova in style.
Cleric: "Hm, looks like the gloves come off. BEHOLD, I SUMMON A GOD!"
A God: "S'up? Hey look at that...your caster level is really high. Okay, I'm going to obey you,"
It's very fun when a 17th level cleric can summon and bind a 29th level cleric++ like that!
Stop bringing up Simulacrum.
Just STOP.
I won't participate in any argument when a spell that is either banned or nerfed at every reasonable table in the country is used to claim the power of casters.
Its such a useless and ridiculous response to everything. "Hey they made a feat that gives fighter +800 to hit and damage at 1st level, I think that's unbalanced."
"Well, Simulacrum."
"Hey look at this new thing that lets you do something ridiculous"
"Well Simulacrum so its all good."
"They made a new thing that says that Monks get to just rip up other peoples character sheets and get experience for doing it"
"Well, Simulacrum so that's fine"
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Well it's a good thing nobody's saying that then. Everybody's happy.
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I regret to be the one to inform you Nathanael, but while it is annoying that Simulacrum is used as a crutch by many people making the argument that wizards/spellcasters are overpowered (because it's bonkers), it's equally unreasonable to exclude it from the discussion. To exclude simulacrum (or any spell/feature/mechanic) from the discussion completely changes it from being "Are psionics balanced (implicitly comparing the magic system)" to "Are psionics balanced (compared to the magic system culled down to being more balanced)?"
This isn't shifting goals posts but it is setting an unreasonable bar to set for determining whether or not psionics is balanced. 3.5 psionics isn't perfect and has some well known abuses, but to claim that it's irredeemably broken and will never be run in your games, when you are stating that a reasonable player or DM should expect to need to fix the magic system is hypocritical.
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@ Nathanael
You apparently missed the myriad other obscenely awesome things I mentioned and just saw "simulacrum" and forgot how to parse language for a minute or two.
Funny thing is, I don't have a huge problem with simulacrum. Even played strait it's not that bad unless you're really going nuts with it. I even wrote up a revision for it that would help more GMs be comfortable, but simulacrum is a thing. Even used in it's least-interpretive manner (making some half-level clones of yourself and/or party members) it's still one of the most powerful spells (you can make wizards, seriously).
Proxy-combat through projected image + ethereal jaunt (ethereal jaunt makes you ethereal but gives you LoS 60 ft. around you for material things, projected image allows you to see through your illusion and cast spells originating from the illusion) is a solid tactic for the high level mage as they can fight without even being physically present in the room (by this level, however, things both PC and not have means of becoming ethereal if they need to, but it's an advanced tactic that most players aren't going to be ready for).
Oh and...
Magic...freaking...jar.
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The funniest part is that abusing simulacrum is actually supported in the lore of the game. Anyone else recall that one of the premier BBEG's of the Forgotten Realms, Manshoon, was notorious for the hordes of clones he had scattered all over the Realms?
Besides which, simulacrum is only one of many spells that have been referenced in the thread so far. I may have missed it, but I have yet to see a problematic psionic power be discussed. It's worth noting that the psionic equivalent, mind seed, is nowhere near the power of its arcane counterpart (though it is a lot cooler).
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Oh, and since I just noticed that we're on the 3.5 boards, I should probably mention POLYMORPH ANY OBJECT. Just be a pit fiend for realsies.
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Funny thing is, I don't have a huge problem with simulacrum. Even played strait it's not that bad unless you're really going nuts with it. I even wrote up a revision for it that would help more GMs be comfortable, but simulacrum is a thing. Even used in it's least-interpretive manner (making some half-level clones of yourself and/or party members) it's still one of the most powerful spells (you can make wizards, seriously).
Pretty much this. I've never run a game or played in one where simulacrum was banned. Granted I've only been in two games that got high enough level to matter, but you (Nathanael) make it sound like if you don't ban the spell from the get-go you're "unreasonable".
Am I unreasonable then? Are the other GMs at my table? Is that going to be the next recourse, calling anyone unreasonable who doesn't subscribe to your notions of game balance?
More importantly, what other spells should we go ahead and assume all "reasonable" GMs ban from the starting line? Let's go ahead and make that list, so we know exactly where you're wanting to consider "balance" as starting from. Because clearly we have to remove all the stuff "reasonable" GMs would remove before we can "properly" compare the power level between arcane magic and psionics.
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No one brings up the shenanigans that is Explosive Runes yet?
Sure, a Balor has SR, but only an SR of 28, so CL 20 Explosive Runes gets a roll of 1d20+20, it's not a guaranteed odds, sure, but it only needs a roll of 8. See, funny thing about Psionics, I don't recall if they have a lot of 'permanent' duration powers, and the ones that are? They aren't like Explosive Runes. The Wizard or Sorcerer could, theoretically, have nearly any number of Explosive Runes prepared on an object, and with only need an 8 or higher, most of those Runes are going to get through the SR.
Also, if you use a Wand of Dispel Magic, the CL check to dispel the runes is 1d20+5 vs a DC of 31, a.k.a. zero chance of succeeding in the dispel and 100% chance of causing all of the runes to explode because 3.5 Dispel includes an AoE option. I don't recall if you can cast at a lower level in 3.5, but if you can, then you could also use Spectral Hand and Erase to do the same job.
But... you know, those are all low level spells and are completely useless in a combat at high levels.
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Funny thing is, I don't have a huge problem with simulacrum. Even played strait it's not that bad unless you're really going nuts with it. I even wrote up a revision for it that would help more GMs be comfortable, but simulacrum is a thing. Even used in it's least-interpretive manner (making some half-level clones of yourself and/or party members) it's still one of the most powerful spells (you can make wizards, seriously).Pretty much this. I've never run a game or played in one where simulacrum was banned. Granted I've only been in two games that got high enough level to matter, but you (Nathanael) make it sound like if you don't ban the spell from the get-go you're "unreasonable".
Am I unreasonable then? Are the other GMs at my table? Is that going to be the next recourse, calling anyone unreasonable who doesn't subscribe to your notions of game balance?
More importantly, what other spells should we go ahead and assume all "reasonable" GMs ban from the starting line? Let's go ahead and make that list, so we know exactly where you're wanting to consider "balance" as starting from. Because clearly we have to remove all the stuff "reasonable" GMs would remove before we can "properly" compare the power level between arcane magic and psionics.
If you have to make a list of spells that 'all reasonable GMs ban' from the get-go, but get to include all of the psionic powers... well, then he just lost the argument from the get-go.
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No one brings up the shenanigans that is Explosive Runes yet?
Sure, a Balor has SR, but only an SR of 28, so CL 20 Explosive Runes gets a roll of 1d20+20, it's not a guaranteed odds, sure, but it only needs a roll of 8. See, funny thing about Psionics, I don't recall if they have a lot of 'permanent' duration powers, and the ones that are? They aren't like Explosive Runes. The Wizard or Sorcerer could, theoretically, have nearly any number of Explosive Runes prepared on an object, and with only need an 8 or higher, most of those Runes are going to get through the SR.
Also, if you use a Wand of Dispel Magic, the CL check to dispel the runes is 1d20+5 vs a DC of 31, a.k.a. zero chance of succeeding in the dispel and 100% chance of causing all of the runes to explode because 3.5 Dispel includes an AoE option.
Hahahah, oh man, I didn't even know about that.
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The funniest part is that abusing simulacrum is actually supported in the lore of the game. Anyone else recall that one of the premier BBEG's of the Forgotten Realms, Manshoon, was notorious for the hordes of clones he had scattered all over the Realms?
I wanted to mention that, in that lore at least, Manshoon's clones were, in fact, his actual clones - i.e. the things that came alive when he died.
The reason there were so many active is that he was noted as a weird magic effect that, when he was assassinated, all of them activated at the same time.
Now, that said, if we're talking of people that abuse simulacrum, while nothing is explicitly stated, it seems that Halaster had "clones" of himself that were simultaneously active... but much lower power (about half power) of himself... you know, like a simulacrum. :)
/nerdpedantry
Besides which, simulacrum is only one of many spells that have been referenced in the thread so far. I may have missed it, but I have yet to see a problematic psionic power be discussed. It's worth noting that the psionic equivalent, mind seed, is nowhere near the power of its arcane counterpart (though it is a lot cooler).
This is actually a serious point.
Mind Seed nets you a yourself at 8 levels lower, while simulacrum can affect any creature at all that you get a tiny bit of. Regardless of its relative power, a half-power creature of many different potent outsiders is exceedingly potent, and allows for many tricks that you couldn't otherwise acquire on your own.
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aburation
- Freedom: Releases creature from imprisonment.
- Imprisonment: Entombs subject beneath the earth.
- Mage’s Disjunction: Dispels magic, disenchants magic items.
- Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.
conjuration
- Gate X: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
- Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
- Summon Monster IX: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
- Teleportation Circle M: Circle teleports any creature inside to designated spot.
divination
- Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.
enchantment
- Dominate Monster: As dominate person, but any creature.
- Hold Monster, Mass: As hold monster, but all within 30 ft.
- Power Word Kill: Kills one creature with 100 hp or less.
evocation
- Crushing Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or crushes your foes.
- Meteor Swarm: Four exploding spheres each deal 6d6 fire damage.
illusion
- Shades: As shadow conjuration, but up to 8th level and 80% real.
- Weird: As phantasmal killer, but affects all within 30 ft.
necromancy
- Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
- Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
- Soul Bind F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
- Wail of the Banshee: Kills one creature/level.
transmutation
- Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
- Shapechange F: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.
- Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.
universal
- Wish X: As limited wish, but with fewer limits.
- Affinity Field: Effects that affect you also affect others.
- Apopsi X: You delete target’s psionic powers.
- Assimilate: Incorporate creature into your own body.
- Etherealness, Psionic: Become ethereal for 1 min./level.
- Microcosm A: Creature or creature lives forevermore in world of his own imagination.
- Reality Revision X: As bend reality, but fewer limits.
- Timeless Body: Ignore all harmful, and helpful, effects for 1 round.
EDIT: Specialty Powers should be added, too
Egoist (Psychometabolism) Discipline Powers
- Metamorphosis, Greater X: Assume shape of any nonunique creature or object each round.
Kineticist (Psychokinesis) Discipline Powers
- Tornado Blast A: Vortex of air subjects your foes to 17d6 damage and moves them.
Nomad (Psychoportation) Discipline Powers
- Teleportation Circle, Psionic: Circle teleports any creatures inside to designated spot.
- Time Regression X: Relive the last round.
Seer (Clairsentience) Discipline Powers
- Metafaculty X: You learn details about any one creature.
Shaper (Metacreativity) Discipline Powers
- Genesis X: You instigate a new demiplane on the Astral Plane.
- True Creation X: As psionic major creation, except items are completely real.
Telepath (Telepathy) Discipline Powers
- Mind Switch, True X: A permanent brain swap.
- Psychic Chirurgery X: You repair psychic damage or impart knowledge of new powers.
... maybe I'll remember it later and come back to it.
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What no one is doing is providing a reasonable counter to my theory that novas are problems and that Psions are too good at doing them.
What you seem to misunderstand and that, coincidentally, everyone else in this thread is trying to convey to you, is that direct damage, blasting style casting is objectively the least effective way to play a caster in 3.5. Enemy HP scales much more quickly than spell damage, to the point that the power of direct damage spells is inversely proportional to character level. Any smart caster will be using buffs, summons, and battlefield control at 20th level.
No one is providing a reasonable counter to your theory, because your theory presupposes an irrelevant playstyle. Perhaps it's "everyone versus you" simply because you are demonstrably incorrect.
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What no one is doing is providing a reasonable counter to my theory that novas are problems and that Psions are too good at doing them.What you seem to misunderstand and that, coincidentally, everyone else in this thread is trying to convey to you, is that direct damage, blasting style casting is objectively the least effective way to play a caster in 3.5. Enemy HP scales much more quickly than spell damage, to the point that the power of direct damage spells is inversely proportional to character level. Any smart caster will be using buffs, summons, and battlefield control at 20th level.
No one is providing a reasonable counter to your theory, because your theory presupposes an irrelevant playstyle. Perhaps it's "everyone versus you" simply because you are demonstrably incorrect.
It's also worth noting that NL's "theory" hasn't been backed by any real scenarios or evidence yet. Which powers are problematic? What is their actual impact against CR appropriate challenges? How does that compare to what an arcane caster can do in the same timeframe/scenario? How big a difference does preparation make? Is one power source better spur of the moment and the other better with more prep time, or do they break even in both scenarios? How does the psion's ability to wear armor actually compare to the arcane caster's much more numerous hour/level buffs, not just in quantitative AC but in actual chance to divert a level appropriate attack? I personally, would add the 10 min/level buffs into that equation as well, but won't as that does presuppose some things about the time it takes to clear a series of encounters. How expensive is it in resources for the psion to wear said armor (i.e. penalties to hit, relevance of ACP, cost in feats, cost in wealth, etc.)? What could the wizard accomplish with those same resources?
As has been noted, monster hit points scale much faster than spell damage (a psion maxing out energy ray is adding 3.5 damage per level, while many monsters are adding 4.5 - 6.5 + CON), so even in an ideal scenario where you're acting first to attack an enemy who's vulnerable to your active energy type, it'll probably still take 2-3 rounds to deal enough damage to drop said enemy, assuming they fail all of their saves. Can the psion survive as well during those rounds as a wizard? How big a difference do those save boosters like haste and heroism make to the longevity of the arcane caster over the psion? What is an arcane caster capable of in the same timeframe?| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hahahah, oh man, I didn't even know about that.No one brings up the shenanigans that is Explosive Runes yet?
Sure, a Balor has SR, but only an SR of 28, so CL 20 Explosive Runes gets a roll of 1d20+20, it's not a guaranteed odds, sure, but it only needs a roll of 8. See, funny thing about Psionics, I don't recall if they have a lot of 'permanent' duration powers, and the ones that are? They aren't like Explosive Runes. The Wizard or Sorcerer could, theoretically, have nearly any number of Explosive Runes prepared on an object, and with only need an 8 or higher, most of those Runes are going to get through the SR.
Also, if you use a Wand of Dispel Magic, the CL check to dispel the runes is 1d20+5 vs a DC of 31, a.k.a. zero chance of succeeding in the dispel and 100% chance of causing all of the runes to explode because 3.5 Dispel includes an AoE option.
My friend, that is merely the beginning of the horrors that are birthed from 3.5 spellcasting. I have seen a man, on a whim, turn himself into a living planet in six seconds of spellcasting. I have seen horrors that should have never been, crawling forth from pages of text like sins spilling from Pandora's Box, howling for the blood of games unborn.
And they're totally awesome, in a scary kind of way.
Man, yeah.
Like the "The will and the word" - fun but... huh. O.O
EDIT 2: the will and the word (if I'm even recalling the name correctly) is not the build I'm talking about below - that's another build where you go around one-shotting gods because one of you became a shadow and then got your mind back.
EDIT: Specifically, PoK is referring to (I believe) the "black ooze with fast-healing exploit", in which you gain a prestige class, take a black ooze's Split ability, and a high degree fast healing, and... cut yourself. Instantly two of you... with lots of actions. Each of the two of you do this. Now there are four. The four of you do this... and you can see exactly how this ends.
It's not PH-based, though, so at least there's that.
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I have seen a man, on a whim, turn himself into a living planet in six seconds of spellcasting.
This, if nothing else, would have significantly shortened the plot of Final Fantasy VII.