How do you build the classic TWF ranger (or slayer)?


Advice

Silver Crusade

I have another thread where I was asking for inquisitor advice, and somebody mentioned that I should take the Sanctified Slayer archetype. Well that got me looking at sleyers, which got me looking at rangers, which got me wondering.

How do you build the classic two-weapon fighting ranger? I understand it's great because you don't need to pump Dex up to the insane levels normally required by TWF, but how do you get all of the feats you really want?

Do you just start off with 15 Dex and take TWF at level 1, then take Double Slice with your style feat at 2, Imp TWF with the style feat at 6, and either Greater TWF or Two-Weapon Rend with the style feat at 10?

This whole exercise got me really wanting to make an ulfen slayer that takes the ranger style feats and TWKs with kukri or maybe wakizashi. I'm must not sure how to build it.

BTW, I picked slayer over ranger because I'm not a huge fan of animal companions. I know there are ranger archetypes that get rid of it, and I can even choose to form a bond with my party-mates as well, but I kind of like the Studied Target and partial sneak attack progression of the slayer. Plus, if I make a slayer, I can keep my inquisitor as a vanilla inquisitor (or maybe a Preacher) and not lose the flavor I'm looking for with him.

Dark Archive

Double Slice is kinda bleh, so you're fine ignoring it until late game (when it's actually going to add up to a decent amount of damage due to much larger Str bonus). Two-Weapon Rend is also something you can put off for a bit.

Do note that, unlike the Ranger, a Slayer will only ever be able to get three Ranger combat style feats. Your best bet is probably to just not worry too much about your Dex, use the combat style feats to grab TWF and its later versions, and then just build normally. You can also grab a combat feat once with the Combat Trick rogue trick, but that's pretty much as far as you can go, bonus feat-wise.


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You read this:
A Ranger's Guide to TWF

Then you smack yourself for not realizing the joy that a Large, Flanking Tripping Wolf animal companion is.

The slayer is pretty cool, but has a harder time TWFíng.

If you go Slayer, Just pick up TWF and ITWF and TWRend since they are the best ones you qualify for. Don't touch Doubleslice with a ten foot pole.
A far more detailed explanation in in the guide.

I haven't written a guide on Slayer yet but the trick with any sneak attacker is finding a way to get your SA on ALL THE TIME!

The most usable solution is
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defences and
Cornugon Smash or Enforcer.

Dazzling Display is a feat tax.
Shatter defences is pure win with cherries on top. Chocolate cherries. Big Ones.
'
Shatter Defences:
'Treat any shaken foe as flat footed"

See where I'm going here?

Flat footed opponents can't AOO you when you move or do a Combat Manuvere. They are denied their DEX, making them easier to hit and they are a valid Sneak Target without requiring a flank.

Cornugon Smash and Enforcer are both feats that let you Intimidate a target AS A FREE ACTION when you hit them.

So you smack a dude- you get a free intimidate check (a class skill for a slayer). You succeed.
Sneak Full Attack!!

So in summary. To make a TWF slayer.

1. Take TWF, ITWF and TWRend with your combat style feats.

2. Take Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses and Cornugon Smash with your Combat Trick Talent and two regular feats.

3. Take Power Attack as well.

4. Kill dudes and take their stuff.

Your Welcome

Silver Crusade

Hmmm, ok if was thinking Double Slice was a much bigger deal. So for a slayer, something like this would work just fine?

Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Dark Archive

Looks fine to me. Personally, I'd swap Wis and Int because 6 skill points/level is already pretty good, and the Slayer has a bad Will save. But that's a totally workable stat spread.

Silver Crusade

That's what I meant to put. I kept typoing on my iPad.

Got any advice for traits? I tentatively have Indomitable Faith and if I decide to fight with kukri I'll take River Rat. But if I decide to go wakizashi, which is likely, I don't know what to take.

Dark Archive

Intomitable Faith is a good choice. For my Slayer, I went for Dangerously Curious, but he had a positive Cha mod.

Silver Crusade

This is what I have so far.

human slayer:
Magnus Svenson
Human (Ulfen) Slayer 1
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee kukri +5 (1d4+6/18-20) and
kukri +5 (1d4+6/18-20)
Special Attacks studied target
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Power Attack, Weapon Focus (kukri)
Traits indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +2, Perception +5, Stealth +4, Survival +5, Swim +6
Languages Common, Skald, Vudrani
SQ track +1
Other Gear lamellar (leather) armor, kukri, kukri, 74 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Studied Target +1 (Move action, 1 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Move action, gain +1 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

This is what I have so far.

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7

For Slayer (or Rogue before) i think the Dex/weapon finesse route is better. You seem to be on 20 points buy. I would start:

14 Str,20 Dex, 12 Con, 10Int, 10Wis, 7Cha. Your dmg will come from sneak atk and studied target on 6 attacks/round... You make sure all attacks hit. Plus you get an incredible AC.

The "Stygian Slayer" archetype is a must in my opinion. What you get is far superior to what you lose. With this archetype, the times where you cant get sneak attacks are much rarer. I am at lvl 13 currently and when i target something it is usually dead in max 1-2 rounds...

Silver Crusade

I'm playing a slayer. I get ranger combat style feats so I don't need the Dex to qualify for the TWF feats. I can't see any way in which the Dex build would surpass the Str build.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Thormind wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:

This is what I have so far.

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7

For Slayer (or Rogue before) i think the Dex/weapon finesse route is better. You seem to be on 20 points buy. I would start:

14 Str,20 Dex, 12 Con, 10Int, 10Wis, 7Cha. Your dmg will come from sneak atk and studied target on 6 attacks/round... You make sure all attacks hit. Plus you get an incredible AC.

The "Stygian Slayer" archetype is a must in my opinion. What you get is far superior to what you lose. With this archetype, the times where you cant get sneak attacks are much rarer. I am at lvl 13 currently and when i target something it is usually dead in max 1-2 rounds...

I disagree. An advantage that the slayer has (and ranger) is that it can get the TWF feats without meeting the dexterity requirements. That frees up having to take feats like weapon finesse, or spend gold on enchantments like agile. You won't always have sneak attack, and doing terrible damage when you don't is...well..terrible.

Silver Crusade

Here's a level 11 Str based slayer stat block. Feel free to post a level 11 Dex based slayer stat block. On Monday I'll plug them both into my DPR spreadsheet and get the final figures.

stat block:
Level 11 Str Based Slayer
Human (Ulfen) Slayer 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 28, touch 17, flat-footed 24 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +10
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee +2 wakizashi +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d6+18/15-20) and
+2 wakizashi +20/+20/+15 (1d6+11/15-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +3d6, studied target
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +11; CMB +19; CMD 35
Feats Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (wakizashi), Improved Critical (wakizashi), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Shadow Strike[APG], Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Weapon Focus (wakizashi)
Traits bruising intellect, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +13, Bluff +1, Climb +9, Disguise +1, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +17, Knowledge (local) +17, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (planes) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Perception +17, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +17, Survival +18, Swim +9
Languages Common, Skald
SQ combat styles (two-weapon combat), slayer talents (combat trick, evasion, ranger combat style, ranger combat style, ranger combat style), swift tracker, track +5
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier; Other Gear celestial armor, +2 wakizashi, +2 wakizashi, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of giant strength +4, boots of speed, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +2, 5,080 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Sneak Attack +3d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Studied Target +3 (Swift action, 3 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Swift action, gain +3 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Two-Weapon Rend Deal extra 1d10+10 if you hit a foe with both main and off hand weapons.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I'm playing a slayer. I get ranger combat style feats so I don't need the Dex to qualify for the TWF feats. I can't see any way in which the Dex build would surpass the Str build.

Huge AC boost, better Dex based skills (stealth/acrobatics/escape artist/disable devices vs climb/swim?). You can also use your Slayer/Rogue talents on other stuff. If you are trying to emulate a rogue you will need at least trapfinfing (and maybe trap spotter), evasion, fast sneak and Deadly sneak... For a Slayer bonus dmg from Str wont make that much of a difference on a TWF build. And with the stats i gave you still get a bonus...

Unless you are not playing with a full party, sneak attacks are really easy to do. You have your own stealth, you can use magic equipment and as a Stygian Slayer you can use invisibility and magic devices. This is when you do not have a party member, animal companion, summoned monster, etc flanking with you.

At lvl 13 my Slayer can reliably hit with 7 attacks (with haste) for 5d6+7 per attacks and another 1d10+3 per round. Thats a potential 88-272 dmg per round.

For a ranger i do agree that Str builds are better.


Thormind wrote:

At lvl 13 my Slayer can reliably hit with 7 attacks (with haste) for 5d6+7 per attacks and another 1d10+3. Thats a potential 88-272 dmg per round.

i forgot to add dmg bonus from studied target. Thats 3dmg per attack time 7 attacks. So final 109-293. I am not sure if studied target add +3dmg to the Two-Weapon Rend roll. If yes then its 112-296 per round.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Thormind wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I'm playing a slayer. I get ranger combat style feats so I don't need the Dex to qualify for the TWF feats. I can't see any way in which the Dex build would surpass the Str build.

Huge AC boost, better Dex based skills (stealth/acrobatics/escape artist/disable devices vs climb/swim?). You can also use your Slayer/Rogue talents on other stuff. If you are trying to emulate a rogue you will need at least trapfinfing (and maybe trap spotter), evasion, fast sneak and Deadly sneak... For a Slayer bonus dmg from Str wont make that much of a difference on a TWF build. And with the stats i gave you still get a bonus...

Unless you are not playing with a full party, sneak attacks are really easy to do. You have your own stealth, you can use magic equipment and as a Stygian Slayer you can use invisibility and magic devices. This is when you do not have a party member, animal companion, summoned monster, etc flanking with you.

At lvl 13 my Slayer can reliably hit with 7 attacks (with haste) for 5d6+7 per attacks and another 1d10+3 per round. Thats a potential 88-272 dmg per round.

For a ranger i do agree that Str builds are better.

First, attacks at -10 should not be considered "reliable". Second, you don't need trapfinding. Third, strength build will always out damage dexterity build. If you really want to replicate a rogue, the investigator is much better at it.


One level dip in Swashbuckler, go slashing grace, use saw tooth sabers, go Dex based. Done.

Silver Crusade

I have no interest in dipping into any other classes. I could just as easily spend my level 1 feats on EWP (sawtooth sabre) and Weapon Finesse, then take the TWF feats with the ranger combat style feats, then pick up Slashing Grace at 3.

Let me put that build together and see how it comes out.


Sawtooth Sabers are not finesse weapons and so don't qualify for Weapon Finesse. As Under A Bleeding Sun notes you'd need one level of swashbuckler for Swashbuckler Finesse to make dexterity to attack work with the sabers.

If you want dexterity to damage with TWF without eating a -4 penalty for using two one-handed weapons your options are either Slashing Grace with the swashbuckler dip, two agile weapons, or searching through archetypes - the two weapon warrior archetype can ignore the one-handed penalty at level 11, for example.

Silver Crusade

Here's the Dex-based slayer.

stat block:
Level 11 Dex Based Slayer
Human (Ulfen) Slayer 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 31, touch 20, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +8 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +11, Ref +18, Will +9
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +14/+9/+4 (1d8+19/17-20) and
+2 sawtooth sabre +14/+9 (1d8+12/17-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +3d6, studied target
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 26, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +11; CMB +13; CMD 33
Feats Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), Improved Critical (sawtooth sabre), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack, Shadow Strike[APG], Slashing Grace, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +20, Bluff +1, Disguise +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (local) +16, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (planes) +8, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +17, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +23, Survival +3
Languages Common, Skald
SQ combat styles (two-weapon combat), slayer talents (combat trick, evasion, ranger combat style, ranger combat style, ranger combat style), swift tracker, track +5
Other Gear celestial armor, +2 sawtooth sabre, +2 sawtooth sabre, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of incredible dexterity +4, boots of speed, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +2, 10,080 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Slashing Grace (Sawtooth sabre) Treat chosen weapon as 1-handed piercing weapon and can had Dex instead of Str to dmg.
Sneak Attack +3d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Studied Target +3 (Swift action, 3 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Swift action, gain +3 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Two-Weapon Rend Deal extra 1d10+3 if you hit a foe with both main and off hand weapons.

Sawtooth sabers don't work for this build because it's not a finessable weapon. So that means there's no way to get Dex to damage without suffering -4 to each attack or enchanting each weapon with agile.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Sawtooth sabers don't work for this build because it's not a finessable weapon. So that means there's no way to get Dex to damage without suffering -4 to each attack or enchanting each weapon with agile.

That's where the previously mentioned dip in Swashbuckler comes in handy. It also means you save a feat (weapon finesse) and can get Slashing Grace online at level 1.

That said, I think there's some real potential in a strength-based TWF slayer using a double axe.

Silver Crusade

I don't want a Dex based build. I'm perfectly happy with the Str based build. Others are saying Dex based is better. I don't want to dip swashbuckler because a) I hate multi classing and b) I already have a swashbuckler, so I don't need 2 of them.

The Str based build is also easier to bring online, so I'll stick with that.


When you get down to it I suspect dexterity is the better TWF option (certainly if you have the WBL where Agile doesn't set you back too much) but strength is a viable contender, especially if you can't expect to make a lot of full attacks. Both approaches should be able to do well.

Silver Crusade

This is for PFS, so I have a certain amount of ability to affect WBL. That being said, the Str build is easier to figure out and is only a few points behind the Dex build in AC.

Dark Archive

Kudaku wrote:
When you get down to it I suspect dexterity is the better TWF option (certainly if you have the WBL where Agile doesn't set you back too much)

Yeah, I don't agree with this at all. Dex gives you slightly better AC (+3 in this case), better Init (+8, an admittedly big increase), but worse to-hit (even going Swashbuckler or Daring Champion for free weapon finesse), worse damage, a slightly weaker will save, fewer skill points, eats up more feats AND it relies on spending a big chunk of your money on Agile weapons (unless you grabbed that Swashbuckler/Daring Champion dip).

And that's all to perform roughly around the level that the Strength build, but the Strength build spent its feats on Power Attack, TWF and then can pretty much do whatever the hell it wants.


Seranov wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
When you get down to it I suspect dexterity is the better TWF option (certainly if you have the WBL where Agile doesn't set you back too much)

Yeah, I don't agree with this at all. Dex gives you slightly better AC (+3 in this case), better Init (+8, an admittedly big increase), but worse to-hit (even going Swashbuckler or Daring Champion for free weapon finesse), worse damage, a slightly weaker will save, fewer skill points, eats up more feats AND it relies on spending a big chunk of your money on Agile weapons (unless you grabbed that Swashbuckler/Daring Champion dip).

And that's all to perform roughly around the level that the Strength build, but the Strength build spent its feats on Power Attack, TWF and then can pretty much do whatever the hell it wants.

Well, let's see:

The strength user is either using combat style feats (ie ranger or slayer levels) to pick up TWF feats, or he's splitting his ability scores between strength and dexterity. If he's using combat style feats that means he's won't qualify for more than three TWF feats. TWF + ITWF + Double Slice means Greater TWF and Two-Weapon Rend is a no-go. Conversely if he's boosting both strength and dexterity he's more MAD than the dex user.

Since you're both most likely using light weapons, there is no difference in damage die. Light weapons means Piranha Strike is an option, so the dex user can dump strength to the dregs if he so chooses.

Going with Agile weapons puts you a net total of -1 enhancement bonus on each weapon and one feat (weapon finesse) behind a TWF strength character. Conversely the dex character gets (as you noted) a massive bonus to Initiative, excellent Touch AC (which I'd personally rank over flat-footed AC because of the initiative modifier), spectacular reflex save, and he qualifies for many more TWF feats than the strength character. He can also make a decent archer if the situation calls for it.

If the question is "what does more damage, strength character or dexterity character" the answer is obviously THF strength. If the question is "who does more damage while using a TWF style, strength or dexterity" I think the answer depends on the level you compare - Agile isn't an affordable option until level 8 or so, but past that it saves you two or three feats (depending on whether or not WF was on your list to begin with) and opens up a ton of weapon options that are otherwise out of reach. It also means you can safely ignore Power Attack and use its cooler cousin, Piranha Strike. ;)

Silver Crusade

I'm going to have to build out the level 11 build using wakizashi, since that is what I was planning on using anyway. I will say that being able to spend slayer talents on other than the TWF feats is tantalizing. I could pick up Evasion and the trap finding stuff and fully replace a rogue. And with a wakizashi, I can use piranha strike.

Lemme go build that out right now and see what I think of it.

Silver Crusade

I have to admit, the Dex build looks pretty good with wakizashi.

Dex build:
Level 11 Dex Based Slayer
Human (Ulfen) Slayer 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 31, touch 20, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +8 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +13, Ref +19 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +9
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile wakizashi +19/+14/+9 (1d6+9/15-20) and
+1 agile wakizashi +19/+14 (1d6+9/15-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +3d6, studied target
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +11; CMB +11; CMD 31
Feats Combat Reflexes, Double Slice, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (wakizashi), Improved Critical (wakizashi), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Piranha Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (wakizashi)
Traits anatomist, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +20, Climb +7, Disable Device +27, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14, Knowledge (local) +14, Perception +15, Stealth +20, Survival +15, Swim +6
Languages Common, Skald
SQ slayer talents (combat trick, evasion, finesse rogue, trapfinding, weapon training), swift tracker, track +5, trapfinding +5
Other Gear celestial armor, +1 agile wakizashi, +1 agile wakizashi, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of incredible dexterity +4, boots of speed, cloak of resistance +4, ring of protection +2, thieves' tools, masterwork, 2,980 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Anatomist +1 to confirm critical hits.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Piranha Strike -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Sneak Attack +3d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Studied Target +3 (Swift action, 3 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Swift action, gain +3 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Two-Weapon Rend Deal extra 1d10+0 if you hit a foe with both main and off hand weapons.

I do have 1 question about it, though. Do you replace your Str bonus with your Dex bonus on the attack from Two-Weapon Rend? If not, it might be better to just take Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at that point.


I'm not aware of an official ruling on Two-Weapon Rend, but I think using dexterity instead of strength while wielding agile / slashing grace weapons is a reasonable ruling. That said, I'd suggest asking your GM, if you're lucky enough to have a regular game rather than PFS. :)

Edit: While I can certainly see the attraction of Combat Reflexes I'd personally take Iron Will instead. +9 will save is a little lower than I'd feel comfortable with at level 11. I'd also be tempted to put more money into your cloak of resistance on both builds, again because I tend to be paranoid about saves.

Silver Crusade

This is for PFS unfortunately, so I'm beholden to RAW. I struggled to decide between Iron Will and Combat Reflexes. It could go either way. I could add a clear spindle ioun stone to the build to help out a bit.


For PFS I'd probably err on the side of caution and say that two-weapon rend only works with strength. It's still an extra 5.5 damage each round, but in that case I'd be tempted to do something different.
Greater TWF is an option, but your attack bonus is not stellar - your third attack would hit at +9 (+12 with studied strike, +15 with Haste and Heroism) and the average AC of a CR 11 monster is 25. Even with decent buffs you have a 50-50 chance of missing on your third iterative, and those odds turn ugly when you start to consider CR 12-13 creatures. If you're playing with a regular group and you're confident you'll be receiving a lot of buffs (ie there's a bard in the group) Greater TWF is not terrible, if you're playing with randoms I'd consider other options.

Maybe switching out Anatomist for a SLA trait and taking Arcane Strike?

Silver Crusade

I thought of that, but later on Studied Target goes to a swift action, so Arcane Strike wouldn't kick in until the 2nd round of combat.

I've got time to finalize this build. I'm probably going to get to level 2 via GM credit, and 2 of those credits will come at a Con I am running a few games at first week of October. I'll ask my VOs what they think of the agile and TWR thing.


Sounds good! Another chance to free up space for Iron Will is to use kukris instead of wakizashis. Not quite as cool a visual, but the only difference is 1 point of damage on average.

One thing I will say to anyone drawing ideas from the discussion here is that the Agile dexterity build described above will be extremely painful to play up to ~level 8, which is where you can feasibly afford two agile weapons - this is really only a viable character if you can start it off at the low-mid levels.

If you want to play a TWF slayer from level 1 I'd say the strength build is quite a bit better.

Silver Crusade

If I can get Piranha Strike pretty early, it won't be too rough. At level 3, Piranha Strike and Studied Combat will give me +3 damage on main hand and +2 damage on offhand attacks.

I had considered using kukri. I might just do that and save the feat from EWP. Oh, what traits grant an SLA? I figure I can go with a progression like:

Level 1: TWF, Arcane Strike
Level 2: Finesse Rogue
Level 3: Piranha Strike
Level 4: Trapfinding
Level 5: Iron Will
Level 6: Combat Trick > Improved TWF
Level 7: Improved Critical (kukri)
Level 8: Weapon Training (kukri)
Level 9: Double Slice
Level 10: Evasion
Level 11: Two Weapon Rend or Greater TWF


Take your pick. :)

Ideally you want one of the ones that gives you a scaling CL, like Light-Bringer.

Silver Crusade

Well, Light-Bringer is a religion trait, so that would mean no Indomitable Faith, meaning an even worse will save.

Isn't there one that lets you use daze as an SLA?

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