Hello All,
I'm a newer GM embarking on a RotR campaign. I picked it as a newer GM because of the huge amount of lore and support material to draw on. However my players have thrown me a curve with one player absolutely wanting to to be a chaotic good goblin firebomber alchemist (without knowing much about the story). To make it more intriguing a second player is a full orc barbarian. The other two characters filling out the party are fairly standard with an elf rogue and an aasimar cleric. Somehow I don't think Sandpoint will take as easily to a goblin defending them from other goblins, but I've decided to accept the challenge.
There seems to be a lot of possibilities for intrigue with other goblins and racial discrimination tension etc. And it seems an extra possibility for a side quest for the players to prove themselves as heroes to the city. A certain popular set of stories about a Drow hero comes to mind as well as the discrimination he encountered. I warned the goblin character that he would likely face quite a lot of discrimination due to his racial choice, likewise for the orc but less so since she's a lot more intimidating.
One part I'm not sure how to deal with is
Just wondering if anyone encountered similar situations or maybe a had some suggestions or possible places to look to incorporate local goblin culture etc. into the story.
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Your mileage might vary, but my advice for you would be: Say no.
As DM's we want the players to have a good time. But we are forced to say no sometimes, manly because what the player want will decrease the fun for the players involved (including the DM).
So we have the responsibility to be able to say no sometimes.
Your mileage might vary, but my advice for you would be: Say no.
As DM's we want the players to have a good time. But we are forced to say no sometimes, manly because what the player want will decrease the fun for the players involved (including the DM).
So we have the responsibility to be able to say no sometimes.
This has crossed my mind. I'd rather have a creative solution because it doesn't seem that beyond the beginning of campaign that indicates a the goblin character will be as much a hindrance. After the initial stages of burnt offerings it seems the goblin as PC matters much less as goblins play less and less a role or the encounters take place outside the public eye. The player I know isn't going to play evil or cause event ruining trouble by playing up the semi-insane nature of goblin (and I would not allow that if it did start to happen), but that player just has an affinity for playing a goblin.
The back story of this character is that due to his kinder nature (and for trying to write down formulas in a formula book), he has become an outcast from his tribe.
As one possibility, I was thinking of making him an outcast from a local tribe so that locals know about this outcast being different from the rest, even if they don't initially trust or like him. As far as it being fun for a GM, the whole area is ripe with possibilities with more interaction with goblin tribes and where the character could even establish himself as a conquering leader of the local tribes to bring a tenuous peace to the village. I was more wondering if there is some stories to lore around standpoint that may be useful to allow some of these deviations from the main story to help allow it to flow without being forced. Either in the direction of working with the goblins or when other parties angered Sandpoint in some way and needed to be redeemed.
You will have to change the campaign world rather drastically.
In Varisia, in fact in Avistan and the regions around it, goblins and orcs are universally reviled as evil and enemies of the core races. Orcs do (rarely) have some peaceful contact with humans (such as in the city of Kaer Maga), and you could work in some "orcish mercenary companies" or something, though this will be tricky. The flat penalty across the board for mental stats really hurts for orcs though.
You could change Burnt Offerings around and make the enemies Kobolds instead of Goblins. This will take a bit of work because kobolds are not as dangerous as goblins, so they will need to be beefed up a bit. Kobolds are a bit smarter and will not play as stupidly. A kobold stronghold will have a lot more traps than Thistletop does.
Doing this turns the kobolds into the bad guys and allows you to change what goblins are like. Basically replace the references to goblins in official materials to kobolds and that's most of what you need to do. You probably also need to add areas where "peaceful" goblins live... they don't have to be as peaceful as everyone else but they do have to usually not make much trouble for their neighbours. BTW for Bruthazmus the Bugbear, change him to Bruthazmus the Wyvaran.
Another thing would be to change the game so that instead of Magnimar the local "big city" is Kaer Maga, where pretty much anyone can find a place, even orcs and goblins. Make Sandpoint into a satellite town of Kaer Maga, one that produces an important resource for Kaer Maga. Make this town a lesser "Kaer Maga" where anything goes. This campaign would be pretty cool but would have a very different feel than a conventional RotRL game.
However, I have a suspicion that your players want to play these races simply because they grant a +4 to an ability score, and on paper that looks really great. But in this case I would put to them that making a more balanced character will be important for the campaign, and suggest these alternatives:
1. Have the orc player play a half-orc. Half-orcs are actually quite good and they can be customized in a lot of ways. They also count as both orcs and humans for the purpose of feats, favoured class bonuses, etc. RotRL is a campaign where skill checks can be important, and will saves are also important. Dumping INT, WIS and CHA can really make a character useless in a lot of situations.
2. Suggest the alchemist be a kobold. Kobolds are a lot of fun and they have some useful abilities especially if you get the advanced race guide. Kobolds are a bit weak and you could get away with bumping their DEX bonus from +2 to +4 or giving them a +2 to INT in addition to their existing bonuses, and this doesn't really overpower them. If the player plays a kobold then you can leave the background on goblins the way it is.
Peet
Peet - thank you for the suggestions.
I actually already took one of your suggestions in part. The player who wants to be an orc isn't because of the +4 but because they are a fan of orcs out of Warcraft lore which are generally more noble than a regular orc in Golarion and act more with the intelligence of a half orc. Since it is a house rules game I basically just had her build a half orc stat wise and called it a full orc because she didn't want to be called a half orc. I also just found it strange that a full orc wouldn't have the same intimidating traits a half orc has.
These heros after all become world saving heros by the end of the campaign, they are anything but typical specimens of their racial makeup.
Also just the general theme of racism and racial relations or how to deal with them I also find somewhat compelling as GM and it is a topic not really discussed in say the GameMastery guide and given very little attention in the Inner Sea World guide (other than given some short sentences of these races tolerating those etc). Say in the Dragon Age fiction, the fact that elves are an oppressed race forced to live in slums makes the world more alive and compelling. Likely I'm going to be doing a bit of hand waving to have some characters ignore who they talk to but in other instances it seems racial tension is a good hook to add a compelling element to the story.
The hatred for orcs and goblins seem to come from different places. Orcs are feared and thought to be somewhat stupid but respected for their martial prowess. However, goblins are viewed simply as vermin.
So a goblin is born and unlike the other goblins is exceptionally smart and not so crazy. Unable to relate to his own kind, what is his place?
When we ran RotRL we had a Goblin in our group. That race was allowed due to the proximity of goblins in the beginnings of the AP in and around Sandpoint, and not until it had been discussed with the group as a whole that it would 1) be a limiting factor for them, a great deal initially and continuing on to some degree indefinitely and 2) it would distract at times from everyone else's RP as the focus would often be on the freaking goblin right there in their midst. For all to have a good time and remain involved they would have to gain some sort of investment in this character that wasn't their own. I wasn't all for it but the group rallied nicely and we decided to move forward.
Throughout most of the first book the goblin character was left to skulk on the outskirts of town with a lone PC serving as a liaison to him and then, after 'proving himself' in the Glassworks and Catacombs (something that happened largely away from the public eye), he was upgraded from outcast to simply an odd resident of the Sandpoint jail when not directly engaged with the other PC's. Remember that the citizens of Sandpoint have a long familiarity regarding goblins, one punctuated by the assault during the Swallowtail festival and then again by the horrific desecration of one of their most prominent citizens. Most will never see or know Nualia or Tsuto, but the goblins and their face-eating barbarism is front and center all of the time. In truth even the populace of Sandpoint never became largely accepting of him until his heroism was witnessed by many in the Giant assault on the town, half-way through the AP.
What ground was eventually made up in Sandpoint was washed away again when the PC's ventured into Magnimar, and then again at Turtleback Ferry and on and on it went. The player did a great job RP'ing the character and the other players were very generous with regards to embracing the RP distraction/limitations often put on them and a good time was had by all... but it is not something I would recommend to anyone wanting a 'realistic' RP experience and I certainly would not have half the group made up of such notorious and dangerous 'monsters'.
What is it, I have to ask, that will prevent these players in your group from enjoying the myriad of challenges ahead of them with a Human, Elf, Half-Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling or any other of the more appropriate character races? Is this a case of power-gaming, a matter of everyone trying to be their own 'special snowflake' or something else entirely? You bring up the drow character (whom I have grown to hate for the 'precedent' he set in that regard) and I'm encouraged to remind you and everyone else that the key aspect was his rarity - if half of every adventuring party is made up of renegade drow (or goblins and orcs), then the entire trope collapses.
The AP's are built with tons of intrigue and challenge already. Adding something like a menagerie of monster races tends to simply distract from the reason everyone is there to play and inevitably shifts the focus of the entire AP to the racial choices made by these specific players. In all but the rarest of circumstances the game suffers, often becoming a circus or an outright farce.
One last point - the argument that playing monster races allows the PC's to 'explore the history of racism in Golarion' is just absurd in my personal opinion. We're not talking about different kinds of humans distrusting one another due to culture and historical differences, we're talking about one race mistrusting another race because their family was massacred by them, or because their father just had his face eaten off by one of them. That's not racism, that's personal experience and historical fact. If you want to explore racism, make I between elves and dwarves or humans and elves, races that are peaceful and share common goals, who's similar culture can become obfuscated by differing appearance... but don't let a player use it as an excuse to shoehorn in a higher attribute bonus and derail the game in the process.
Story Archer thank you for the wonderful comments as well to everyone else. It likely is the case of the "special snowflake" you mention more than anything. And calling me out on the racism thing was appropriate, I had only recently read RA Salvatore novels which are well done even if they create the problems you mentioned. They were likely more heavily influencing my thoughts than they should have been. I will consider the comments strongly, likely asking the player to consider another character and keep this character on reserve until I get a campaign better suited for monster PC or in area more tolerant of monster characters.
Everyone has made good points above, which I agree with. I'll just add one possible option: make the goblin PC a prisoner in Thistletop who allies with the rest of the party when they get there. In return for being rescued, he can give them useful info about the fort.
Meanwhile, the player could run a different character who becomes an npc.
Story Archer thank you for the wonderful comments as well to everyone else. It likely is the case of the "special snowflake" you mention more than anything. And calling me out on the racism thing was appropriate, I had only recently read RA Salvatore novels which are well done even if they create the problems you mentioned. They were likely more heavily influencing my thoughts than they should have been. I will consider the comments strongly, likely asking the player to consider another character and keep this character on reserve until I get a campaign better suited for monster PC or in area more tolerant of monster characters.
Just so that you know, I wasn't trying to call you out at all and if I came across harshly (which re-reading that I may have), then I apologize. I was speaking in general terms and certainly not targeting you or your group in any way.
Everyone has made good points above, which I agree with. I'll just add one possible option: make the goblin PC a prisoner in Thistletop who allies with the rest of the party when they get there. In return for being rescued, he can give them useful info about the fort.
Meanwhile, the player could run a different character who becomes an npc.
Our Goblin PC was from a rival tribe whom had been outcast for being too smart and a potential threat to the resident chief. He had come across the goblin raiding party on their way to Sandpoint and followed at a distance thinking he might be able to take a few rival heads to his tribe and be accepted back... but during the Sandpoint raid he was 'captured' by another PC using a Charm Person spell and interrogated under the presumption that he had been one of the raiders. The Charm effect was used repeatedly and we decided that eventually it stuck.
This thread appears to have worked it's way to conclusion but that's not going to stop me from commenting :)
I completely agree with Story Archer on the problems a goblin (or orc character for that matter) would have. One point to make about the dark elf of literary fame - in his world most people don't know drow are evil - they may have heard tales of such but they haven't encountered them directly. Not so for goblins and orcs in Varisia. Especially for goblins, the people of Sandpoint know all about them and events in the AP make that familiarity brutal and immediate. Enmity with goblins in this case is not racism, it's survival.
One option if you did want to continue would be to change the world. Instead of monsters dwelling in the wild, goblins could be an oppressed miniority living in the squalor, slums and sewers of civilization (very much like the Dalish elves of Dragon Age referenced above.) The goblins making trouble for Sandpoint wouldn't be rogue tribes but rather a collection of misfits, rebels and angry criminals seduced to the cause with promises of vengeance, loot and a chance to "make them pay!" In this case, disdain for goblins would be racism. I would be reluctant to go down that road unless everyone in the player group was comfortable with it and you'd have to make decisions about how widespread this role for goblins is - Sandpoint only, Sandpoint and Magnimar, all of Varisia? Etc.
I'm also running a group through RotRL. Our group also has a goblin. It's been okay, as a DM I've felt bad at times on how I have Npcs treat the goblin. But this person knew that it wouldn't be easy. The goblin has come across a hat that changes it's appearance. So hopefully as the group heads into magnimar things will be easier.
I like the idea that the Goblin PC will be in prison and ends up "proving himself" to the town when he escapes during the Swallowtail festival. However, many people in town may still suspect he is a spy.
If you are going ahead with that idea though, I would recommend having the player come up with some kind of physical difference (like a big white birthmark on his face) that lets the people of Sandpoint tell the difference between him and the 'bad' goblins. Also, this may have been a part of why he was not accepted in Goblin society to begin with.
I am quite torn. I really like the RoTRL and now that I've read quite a bit into like it even more. But some other people's posts, such as Story Archers post about the goblin unnecessarily drawing attention and possibly spoiling fun to be a big factor in making me reconsider. However, I may have a solution and was wondering what you guys thought.
For the goblin, I was going to start him out as an outcast from the local Sandpoint tribes, similar to what other have done. But because he is an alchemist with cure light wounds as one of his first potions, I was thinking he may have some tenuous dealings with Sandpoint, even if not fully welcome, selling potions to the temple and maybe some others so that many of the villagers know about this rogue goblin even if they don't fully trust him. He would know something about the initial raid and try to warn the Sheriff, Mayor etc. but not be believed however, afterward he would have some trust with key people like the mayor, sheriff etc. who know about this. This would allow him to at least interact directly with these characters.
Because we have big barbarian, the goblin can be carried around in a sack by the barbarian that will let him travel with the party unseen in populated areas so he's not the center of attention. He can whisper to the barbarian to participate by proxy in conversations. If he wishes to participate more fully he can purchase, go on a side quest or invent some alchemist potion to let him disguise more fully (with the illusion of halfling or polymorph or some such thing) when traveling in a city.
One thing you could do would be to give the goblin a contact in Sandpoint who already knows him. Someone who would be able to see past the green skin to see the person underneath. Perhaps Father Zantus (which particularly works if the goblin character converted to the faith of Desna). That way he already has someone to "vouch" for him.
Add a hat of disguise to the party treasure pretty early. One of the Thistletop Goblins could have been using it to scout around Sandpoint (I would use Chuffy from the free "We Be Goblins" module).
I still prefer the idea of making him a kobold instead. Kobolds may not get as much DEX but they get natural armor to make up for it.
Peet
I am quite torn. I really like the RoTRL and now that I've read quite a bit into like it even more. But some other people's posts, such as Story Archers post about the goblin unnecessarily drawing attention and possibly spoiling fun to be a big factor in making me reconsider. However, I may have a solution and was wondering what you guys thought.
For the goblin, I was going to start him out as an outcast from the local Sandpoint tribes, similar to what other have done. But because he is an alchemist with cure light wounds as one of his first potions, I was thinking he may have some tenuous dealings with Sandpoint, even if not fully welcome, selling potions to the temple and maybe some others so that many of the villagers know about this rogue goblin even if they don't fully trust him. He would know something about the initial raid and try to warn the Sheriff, Mayor etc. but not be believed however, afterward he would have some trust with key people like the mayor, sheriff etc. who know about this. This would allow him to at least interact directly with these characters.
Because we have big barbarian, the goblin can be carried around in a sack by the barbarian that will let him travel with the party unseen in populated areas so he's not the center of attention. He can whisper to the barbarian to participate by proxy in conversations. If he wishes to participate more fully he can purchase, go on a side quest or invent some alchemist potion to let him disguise more fully (with the illusion of halfling or polymorph or some such thing) when traveling in a city.
If he has set on making an Alchemist, then my first thought would be to make him the clandestine contact of the proprietor of The Feathered Serpent (the local magical shop) - the owner buys potions from him and sells them for a profit, and it'd be up to you to decide if the relationship was a mutually beneficial one or an exploitative one. Alternately he could be an acquaintance of Madame Mvashti from one of her many long walks through the local environs. Either way, one of the PC's could discover the relationship or the NPC could step forward and 'vouch' for the goblin when it appears there is need for him.
In our campaign, before the PC's ventured down into the catacombs they realized that non elf them had dark vision and elected to 'volunteer' our resident Goblin to join them, instructing him to scout ahead (and watch for/spring any traps he may encounter). At that point the group was kind of treating him like he was expendable, with his character not yet having endeared him to the others although out-of-character everyone was fine and having fun. The point is that if he offers something (like dark vision or magical healing) that the PC's might be in need of, that becomes a very good way to introduce him into an encounter and eventually the AP as a whole.
Actually... I have a guy who wants to play a goblin gunslinger in the AP im running, Jade Regent. Looks like Sandpoint may not be entirely unfamiliar with goblin PCs lol.
As far as advice, If you feel like you are up for the challenge do it. You are already addressing discrimination for non-standard race choices and have told the PC about it. Everything I would do.
Sandpoint from what I recall has it's fair share of caravans and merchants who come through. Perhaps he is a goblin from another territory? I haven't done Runelords yet though.... Well, thats my two cents.
Add a hat of disguise to the party treasure pretty early. One of the Thistletop Goblins could have been using it to scout around Sandpoint (I would use Chuffy from the free "We Be Goblins" module).
I was thinking of this - The drow books I mentioned above have the main character use a similar mask and now I've found the oddly off named "Cap of Human Guise" in Ultimate Equipment seems better suited to small races and a less expensive item than hat of disguise so it can be introduced earlier.
Although frankly, I kind of like the idea carrying the goblin in a bag - it just seems the appropriate way to carry a goblin around and a slightly insane thing a goblin would go for. And then opening the bag and letting him out to run around when exploring danger outside the public eye just seems goblin-like. However, the PCs would ultimately make the choice of what to do.
If he has set on making an Alchemist, then my first thought would be to make him the clandestine contact of the proprietor of The Feathered Serpent (the local magical shop) - the owner buys potions from him and sells them for a profit, and it'd be up to you to decide if the relationship was a mutually beneficial one or an exploitative one. Alternately he could be an acquaintance of Madame Mvashti from one of her many long walks through the local environs. Either way, one of the PC's could discover the relationship or the NPC could step forward and 'vouch' for the goblin when it appears there is need for him.
Those are good ideas that I will likely use. I'll probably have the PC play an NPC for the first raid and then introduce him maybe by having select townsfolk refer the other PCs to him as someone who could help find out more about the raids for the sheriff - although he would know little more than them but be willing to help and could join up at that time. Maybe someone has already been using the sack to smuggle him in and out of town and the PC could get the sack at that time as well.
Looks like I'm late to the party, but I'd pretty much say "no" to a goblin PC.
In Sandpoint, and Magnimar, and Turtleback Ferry, people don't see killing goblins as being much different than killing rats...save that goblins are less cute and far more dangerous. Seriously, "Yikes! A goblin! Kill it!" should be the reaction from pretty much every NPC who encounters a goblin PC.
I just don't see the positives in allowing a goblin PC. It's going to be a whole lot of extra work for everyone, both in-game and out-of-game, to keep a goblin PC in the party. This is the same attitude that the goblin PC will receive in both Magnimar and Turtleback Ferry.
You might be able to make it work, but it's going to require pro-level GMing AND pro-level role-playing on the goblin PC's player's part to make this worthwhile.
I'm an old-school GM, and I'd just say "no," because it would be just too much work to make it make sense.
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I'm hearing a lot of nay-saying about allowing a goblin and an orc PC, which I understand. Let me go ahead and say something I don't hear anyone else saying: I'd say no the aasimar cleric as well. Aasimar certainly are cool, aren't they? Well of course they are! With 2 stats getting bonuses and no penalties? With natural energy resistances to 3 energy types? With natural immunity to spells like daze, charm person, and dominate person (among others) simply because they're not humanoids, but outsiders? Way to go aasimar, you're clearly better than the core 7.
Snark aside, I'd allow a dozen goblin PCs before I allowed an aasimar or tiefling PC, simply because of stats.
I'm hearing a lot of nay-saying about allowing a goblin and an orc PC, which I understand. Let me go ahead and say something I don't hear anyone else saying: I'd say no the aasimar cleric as well. Aasimar certainly are cool, aren't they? Well of course they are! With 2 stats getting bonuses and no penalties? With natural energy resistances to 3 energy types? With natural immunity to spells like daze, charm person, and dominate person (among others) simply because they're not humanoids, but outsiders? Way to go aasimar, you're clearly better than the core 7.
Snark aside, I'd allow a dozen goblin PCs before I allowed an aasimar or tiefling PC, simply because of stats.
I think what you're missing out on is that most of the 'nay-saying' is due to RP reasons, not because someone is worried about a character being too mechanically advantageous. Aasimars wouldn't have the same drawbacks as a goblin RP-wise and wouldn't potentially hurt the group's experience as a result.
If mechanical balance is your concern, then why not go ahead and ban full casters as well?
I'd allow a dozen goblin PCs before I allowed an aasimar or tiefling PC, simply because of stats.
I'd likely normally agree with this but this particular adventuring party has both younger and newer players, so I really don't mind if they are bit overpowered as the youth and newness will likely be a hindrance with many of the encounters already.
If I was running a game from first level I would agree on limiting Aasimar and Tiefling characters, though how I do it is that I reduce some of the benefits of the races.
In my games Aasimar are considered humanoids (but with an outsider subtype) and also only choose one energy resistance out of the three. Tieflings also are considered humanoids in my games, though they still look like tieflings, and again they must choose only one energy resistance out of the three.
However, a Goblin specced for stealth can be practically invisible. They get +4 for their size, a +4 racial bonus, and +2 deriving from their racial bonus to Dexterity. It is quite feasible to have a +17 to stealth right off the bat, or even a +20 with skill focus. Goblins can be very powerful depending on the type of character played.
Peet
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I too am running this and have RP considerations to deal with. As such, people should think things out logically. In the first adventure, the town just got attacked by goblins. A goblin then walks in and says "We will save...." Goblin dead before he can finish. And a Goblin sneaking around to avoid the mob is going to miss out a lot of things the rest of the party will get to enjoy (mechanically or fluffwise). It's just too much of a hassle. I often restrict my players to the core races. It's just easier that way for Path/Modules. Now for an open sandbox style campaign? Sure go ahead and play your Goblin Paladin. Once everyone starts seeing all the attention the special snowflake is getting, then everyone will want one. Which will in turn defeat the original players purpose. All in all I wish the game the best and if everyone enjoys themselves then what do the rest of us know? :)
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Personally I'd let him and have him take the 'adopted' saindpoint trait.
He was a goblin orphan who got raised in town - he can deal with the prejudice and bad reactions but the town people at least know him - they may take out 'verbal' anger over the raid at him - but they don't 'hate' him on site - and some NPCs (especially the ones that are important) can separate the anger from the one they know - and may have treated him nicely to begin with.
Just an idea. As to a full orc - that's really not a playable race - why not just let him go half orc with alternate racial features emphasizing his tusks and such - either way people will assume he's a half orc unless he goes out of his way to prove them wrong.
Up to you - I banned goblins and drow from the campaign with the exception that if a player *had* to make one they better come up with an epic story of how and why (ala nobodyshome's player)