Any advice with trying to make PC's classless?


Gamer Life General Discussion


I want to run a dark souls type game, but really don't want to run in a new system, but rather remove classes from the system itself and award class-based Perks at each level, and trying to grade them.
Ok, so I've noticed the relative power of class powers are tied to BaB, it seems like 3/4 really get the cream of the abilities (opinion). Do you guys think a tree based system would be possible where you could buy class abilities or would it just hopelessly break the game? Any help would be greatly appreciated and if I could somehow make it a classless system I would make it a free pdf for anyone interested in trying it.


I'm thinking it would just be heavy on the prerequisites, and maybe point tie in; as in you get X points to spend on your BAB, saves, spellcasting and class abilities, but are free to choose where to allocate those points.


I'm sure there exists some formulae that ties into leveling, and it would just be a bit of deconstruction to break it down to the formula so the players can freely choose what exact abilities they want.

Sovereign Court

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Well, you have your work cut out for you. It'll be tough, probably won't work really well and will just be frustrating.

If I may suggest you read up on GURPS 3rd edition.


You might be right, yet I want to give it a try. I just see options that could and should be completely reasonable but locked behind a class "door" that you can't open without a super-heavy investment to get there, and getting there means falling behind on something far more important to the concept such as channeling or sneak attack. So such concepts can never be done or must be done poorly to work. My intent is similar to maybe the quiggong monk concept of a list of stuff you can have, just broadened to everyone. It does sound labor intensive, but that's really just the making of the list, once I have the formula of what exactly a level breaks down to I can work off of that principle and then the only work is list compiling. I think most of it will be rather intuitive after the level breakdown is done.


One of the biggest problems I can see coming is that some classes just aren't comparative to each other, meaning some are just flat out better objectively and so it might be a balancing issue.


I realize you don't want a new system, but Hama's right: 3rd ed GURPS is (one of) the best classless gaming options available, and trying to "de-class" Pathfinder is (imo) at LEAST as difficult as learning a new system...

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder is based on Classes. It is one of its defining features.

While I have never played Gurps 3rd edition. I'm sure Hama's suggestion is a good one.

I would also suggest taking a look at Mutants and Masterminds.

They have a point system where you purchace things like base attack bonus, saving throws, hit dice, and powers skills etc.

That might be worth taking a look at.


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As a half-measure, you may wish to look at the old Generic Classes in the 3rd Edition book Unearthed Arcana. Alternatively, the newer game Legends has something vaguely similar, I'm told.

The major problem is not just that "people have classes" - it's that everything - everything - in the game is fundamentally tied to the groupings of classes. Skill points, hit points, attack bonus, saves, feats (and access to them) magic growth, etc.

That said, I've been mentally tinkering around with the ideas of moving BAB into a form of skill growth (and increasing skills all-'round). I separated it into several categories: melee adjacent, melee reach, ranged thrown, and ranged loosed.

Characters gain the following: full attack classes gain 4 skills, moderate attack classes gain 2 skills, and worst attack classes gain 1 skill.

The problem, of course, is that this doesn't eliminate classes - just class-based attack bonus.

The system is actually more complex than that: it involves requiring tools for most skill use and proficiency in a tool's use (such as with weapons) to avoid taking penalties, with masterwork tools (including weapons) granting a +2 bonus instead and lots of other tweaks and changes... but you've got the gist of it there.

Further, magic growth could be modified substantially if you borrowed from psionics and used points instead of prepared or spontaneous slots.

You may (or may not) be interested in modifying the action economy.

Each of these changes bring you further away from Pathfinder, though, even if you end up with compatible interactions.


Thanks fellas, I do have GURPS on a pdf file somewhere and might check it out; but a new system would be rough, not for just me but players as well. I might have to just scrap the idea or just make the idea of a dark souls game more in line with the traditional rules of PF; because we are all heavily invested in PF. I can see the validity of the point that it's very class-based, almost inextricable; but I do wish to try and figure it out. I have made most of the areas, monsters and story already using standard PF rules and could run it vanilla PF no problem; I was just hoping to give a more free-form experience to my players without just abandoning the system we're all several hundreds of dollars into.


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Tacticslion wrote:

As a half-measure, you may wish to look at the old Generic Classes in the 3rd Edition book Unearthed Arcana. Alternatively, the newer game Legends has something vaguely similar, I'm told.

The major problem is not just that "people have classes" - it's that everything - everything - in the game is fundamentally tied to the groupings of classes. Skill points, hit points, attack bonus, saves, feats (and access to them) magic growth, etc.

That said, I've been mentally tinkering around with the ideas of moving BAB into a form of skill growth (and increasing skills all-'round). I separated it into several categories: melee adjacent, melee reach, ranged thrown, and ranged loosed.

Characters gain the following: full attack classes gain 4 skills, moderate attack classes gain 2 skills, and worst attack classes gain 1 skill.

The problem, of course, is that this doesn't eliminate classes - just class-based attack bonus.

The system is actually more complex than that: it involves requiring tools for most skill use and proficiency in a tool's use (such as with weapons) to avoid taking penalties, with masterwork tools (including weapons) granting a +2 bonus instead and lots of other tweaks and changes... but you've got the gist of it there.

Further, magic growth could be modified substantially if you borrowed from psionics and used points instead of prepared or spontaneous slots.

You may (or may not) be interested in modifying the action economy.

Each of these changes bring you further away from Pathfinder, though, even if you end up with compatible interactions.

Leave it to Tacticslion to give me some good crunch when I was feeling hopeless after a few comments; thanks bro, this bud's for you.


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Yeah I'm thinking the BAB's are basically tied to everything, so I will have to have the full, 3/4 and 1/2, and separate the abilities into those categories, thus giving the point to disperse based on that choice. So in essence boiling down the classes to three with "ability trees" to specialize in. It sounds very watered down but might still be worth just toying with.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jack Assery wrote:

I want to run a dark souls type game, but really don't want to run in a new system, but rather remove classes from the system itself and award class-based Perks at each level, and trying to grade them.

Ok, so I've noticed the relative power of class powers are tied to BaB, it seems like 3/4 really get the cream of the abilities (opinion). Do you guys think a tree based system would be possible where you could buy class abilities or would it just hopelessly break the game? Any help would be greatly appreciated and if I could somehow make it a classless system I would make it a free pdf for anyone interested in trying it.

Yes... my advice would be to stop trying to push D20 in a hole that doesn't fit, and use a true classless system, such as HERO or GURPS, both of which have modules that fit any genre you want. Another way to go would be Runequest, Element Masters or something similar to that.


I would go GURPS as well, but for less classes D20 Modern or Mutants and Mastermids would be the go.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you must insist on pounding this route, I do suddenly recall that the D20SRD.org site should have some variant rules on making generic classes.

Maybe you'll find something there.


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May not be precisely what you're working for, but I made this and it works well for a class-less game.

Obviously there are some balance issues, it requires a bit of GM guidance, but it works, and it's fun.


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Neat idea, Rynjin! I'll have to look into it more, before commenting, but a basic half-skim is interesting. (If anything I say below is on your document, but isn't credited to you: oops. I didnt read it thoroughly at all, though, so it's not taken from you!)

Glad you like it, Jack!

I forgot to mention, however: saves can also be skills. Give people additional skill ranks based on their saves: +1 for good saves, +0 for bad. This gives folk a very-near-equivalency of saves (+12 for a good save +6 for a bad save = 18 points; this gives folk twenty); but, of course, skews things substantially, if played "right" (as skill bonus stuff is substantially stronger in this variant). Also, I've no idea what a good "tool" for the save "skills" would be. (Shields for reflex? Um... good... food for fortitude? Uh... a... uh... holy... symbol... for will? I 'unno.)

One other variant that I've seen (and have no idea about balance or the like) is to grant bonus skill points for specific skill types equal to a skill modifier. So a high INT can net you lots of INT-based skills, but a high CHA nets you CHA-based ones; make it a minimum of 0 bonus skill points for a single score. Add that to a number of basic "any skill" points systems, and most people could do fairly well. It prevents a super-intelligent wizard-type who tanked STR and CHA from gaining climb and diplomacy (unless he spent his generic skills on them), but it could lead to interesting characters. I can't say for sure how that would work out.

Perhaps if you take a page from Rynjin's (quickly scanned) book, you could somehow purchase hit dice or average hit points or something?

If you go with the skill thing, hit points and fortitude might both be CON skills... but I don't know how you'd relate that with other things. Still, an extra bonus class skill like PF offers could net you an extra hp/lvl... just like the favored class bonus does now (1 hp or 1 skill point/lvl).

Breaking it down, I might bottom out the hp to a d6, bottom out the skills to something like 6+score modifiers+any two (craft, perform, or profession); then focus on class features and their relative values. Probably features would have different costs and draw from a different pool than your skills. Maybe look at Rynjin's document for more ideas? Mages likely use magical spell-points for their powers ala Psionics.

Though I've not played Dark Souls (and thus don't know if this works for you), one thing you could do is have people choose a specific "style", and grant them something according to their over-all level, like a sorcery us bloodline's boons. They have a pre-built chassis, but they control the expression of their character. I dunno: it's just an idea I had right now. Hope it helps! It's a lot of work, though.

Dark Archive

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Jack Assery wrote:
I want to run a dark souls type game, but really don't want to run in a new system, but rather remove classes from the system itself and award class-based Perks at each level, and trying to grade them.

Mutants & Masterminds 2nd edition had a book called 'Warriors & Warlocks' that showed how to use the core 2nd edition rules to create a D&D style setting. IMO, it might have actually gone a little bit too far in that direction, with it's attempts at designing Sorcery and Wizardry power frameworks, when it was already pretty easy to create a fun fantasy game with just the core M&M2e (or 1e) rules.

(I presume it would be equally easy to do with M&M 3e, but I'm less familiar with that rule set.)

Here's some examples of the 3.X iconics as PL 6 M&M characters. (Liberties taken, obviously, since they are different systems, and M&M doesn't have class levels or Vancian spellcasting or any of that sort of thing, although you could build such constructs if you really wanted to.)

Everything in M&M is balanced by Power Level. If your Power Level for the game is 6, then everybody's attack and damage numbers should end around six (although a certain amount of trade off is sometimes appropriate, so that the 'Captain America' or 'Batman' type Fighter has a higher accuracy, but a lower damage number, while the 'Hulk' type Fighter has a higher damage number, but a lower accuracy), and their defense numbers (basically AC, or the number needed to hit them) and their toughness save (the number you have to beat to actually damage them, once you've hit) are also around 6 (again, with trade-offs, so that one character might be harder to hit, but not be as tough, and another might be easy to hit, but harder to actually harm).


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Speaking of Psionics, I should really put those classes on the document now I have more experience with them. Already broke down the Aegis especially for one of my players, may as well do the rest.

Dark Archive

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Triomega Zero had made a classless conversion for Pathfinder making it skill based similar to the D10 system of VtM.
I'm currently playtesting it with my group, it surely needs some revisions as well as corrections regarding spelling etc.

https://sites.google.com/site/triomegazero/home/game-docs
(I don't take credit for this)

It is surely an exciting conversion worth of your time.

Sovereign Court

I'm talking from experience. I tried making 3.5 classless. After a few months of work, the entire game crashed and burned, especially since it has SO MAY ways you can abuse it, and I really didn't have the time to plug every single hole.


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My advice? Don't bother with plugging every hole.

Just resign yourself to the fact that the PCs are going to be more powerful than average. Not as much as Gestalt but more buff due to the flexibility and increased synergy between all their abilities.

Adjust the game with that in mind.

Don't chase around every loophole. It doesn't matter a whole ton if your Sorcerer neglects saves for Divine Grace.

Save your energy for the really egregious, potentially game breaking stuff.

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