Magic vs. Martial


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I brought this up in an unrelated thread but one thing about non-magical classes that I dislike is the outright lack of solutions, even situational ones. If physical conflict occurs a caster has spells and summons to handle or outdo a martial class' job, not to mention numerous means of solving problems like flying creatures, magical defenses, skill deficiencies, ect.

But the biggest slap in the face is how much a martial character has to rely on magical gear with insufficient or zero means of generating it themselves or replicating the effect that they need. Even when you don't have a very complex or specific build you NEED magic weapons to function and martials need it way harder than casters. Basically the caster bourgeoisie wants you dependent on them just to function as a class, siphoning all your precious gp and gaining two to three times the amount of money it took to enchant it. Personally I think Alchemical gear is the solution. I once made an INT-based archer Fighter that crafted his own alchemical gear to replicate a Green Arrow concept. He was single-handedly the most fun fighter I'd ever made simply by having enough skill ranks to do SOMETHING outside of combat and despite the results not being as dramatic as spells having a Batman utility belt full of alchemical solutions FEELs way more fun than just doing almost nothing when something isn't a straight up fight.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
The non-class examples that immediately come to my mind - GURPS, Hero, Mutants & Masterminds, Mayfair's old DC Heroes RPG - don't seem to have that disparity.
Superhero systems tend to be among the only systems that don't have this disparity, since by their nature everyone is supposed to violate realism, and to a similar extent. GURPS is the only system you list that doesn't fall under 'superhero system'...and given how GURPS is set up, calling it a non-superhero game is a bit misleading.

Pathfinder is largely a superhero game in a fantasy milieu, so I think the comparison is apt. One thing all these games do have in common is that the system does not assume any limits on the strength, toughness, speed, skill, etc. of non-magical characters. Rather, any such limits are to be determined by the GM on a campaign by campaign basis. GURPS even has an Unusual Background mechanism that lets a GM charge more for certain abilities based on how useful they are in his or her world.

I've actually considered using 3rd ed. M&M rules for a fantasy campaign instead of PF. If I did that I would put a limit on attribute scores, which means martial characters would have to be more like Captain America or Batman than Superman or the Hulk. They should still be able to hold their own with magical characters, though.

Deadmanwalking wrote:


Some systems without Classes that still have this disparity: Unisystem, All White Wolf games (though those debatably have Classes of a sort), The Dresden Files RPG, The Call of Cthulhu RPG, Shadowrun, Unknown Armies, Dark Heresy, etc.

Now some of those have mechanics that punish magic use in some fashion (Sanity loss or the equivalent is popular), but that doesn't make it less powerful or remove the disparity per se, just institute an alternative balancing mechanism.

I admit I'm not familiar with most of those games. I do recall 1st ed. Shadowrun (the only one I bought) having classes, though.

Liberty's Edge

JoeJ wrote:

Pathfinder is largely a superhero game in a fantasy milieu, so I think the comparison is apt. One thing all these games do have in common is that the system does not assume any limits on the strength, toughness, speed, skill, etc. of non-magical characters. Rather, any such limits are to be determined by the GM on a campaign by campaign basis. GURPS even has an Unusual Background mechanism that lets a GM charge more for certain abilities based on how useful they are in his or her world.

I've actually considered using 3rd ed. M&M rules for a fantasy campaign instead of PF. If I did that I would put a limit on attribute scores, which means martial characters would have to be more like Captain America or Batman than Superman or the Hulk. They should still be able to hold their own with magical characters, though.

I think you misunderstand my point: My argument isn't that this sort of thing is inevitable or unfixable, just that it has to do with factors other than the use of Classes. I agree entirely that Pathfinder is fantasy superheroes and that it should have better balance between casters and martials...I just don't think Classes (which I don't even like, btw) have a lot to do with this particular problem.

JoeJ wrote:
I admit I'm not familiar with most of those games. I do recall 1st ed. Shadowrun (the only one I bought) having classes, though.

Uh...no it didn't. It had pre-built archetypes, but those were all done legally with the priority system used to build characters.


I'll mention Legend as a system that doesn't have martial/magic disparity and very few "trap" options. You are pretty much guaranteed an "on par" character unless you intentionally try to make something "below par". It's possible (easy even) to make something "above par" but even above par characters don't outshine on par characters.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

JoeJ wrote:
I admit I'm not familiar with most of those games. I do recall 1st ed. Shadowrun (the only one I bought) having classes, though.
Uh...no it didn't. It had pre-built archetypes, but those were all done legally with the priority system used to build characters.

You may be right. It's been a long time since I looked at the book. I do remember they gave you characters like Street Shaman and Rocker, but those may have been archetypes not actual classes.

Liberty's Edge

JoeJ wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

JoeJ wrote:
I admit I'm not familiar with most of those games. I do recall 1st ed. Shadowrun (the only one I bought) having classes, though.
Uh...no it didn't. It had pre-built archetypes, but those were all done legally with the priority system used to build characters.
You may be right. It's been a long time since I looked at the book. I do remember they gave you characters like Street Shaman and Rocker, but those may have been archetypes not actual classes.

They were indeed. If we were having this talk in person, I'd pull out my 1st Ed. Shadowrun book and prove it. :)


Maybe another way to think about this is that the problem is an assumption that martial characters have to be "realistic" (whatever that means) combined with the assumption that they have to excel at DPR. If you get rid of that second part at high levels you might get more characters like Batman or Green Arrow. They're way behind on raw damage compared to some of the people they hang out with. It's all the OTHER things they can do that make them valuable.


JoeJ wrote:

Maybe another way to think about this is that the problem is an assumption that martial characters have to be "realistic" (whatever that means) combined with the assumption that they have to excel at DPR. If you get rid of that second part at high levels you might get more characters like Batman or Green Arrow. They're way behind on raw damage compared to some of the people they hang out with. It's all the OTHER things they can do that make them valuable.

Hence why I was happier as a fighter with Craft(Alchemy) ranks. so much more fun to have the option to throw out a debuff before shooting/smacking something.

Liberty's Edge

JoeJ wrote:
Maybe another way to think about this is that the problem is an assumption that martial characters have to be "realistic" (whatever that means) combined with the assumption that they have to excel at DPR. If you get rid of that second part at high levels you might get more characters like Batman or Green Arrow. They're way behind on raw damage compared to some of the people they hang out with. It's all the OTHER things they can do that make them valuable.

This, I agree with entirely. In the absence of other options, it's worth noting that Investigator and Alchemist do well at this role without technically being spellcasters even now.


what puzzles me is that so many people seem to simply ignore the thing that's part of spellcasting that makes it hard...

YOU NEED THE MATERIAL COMPONENTS!

in my (not so) humble opinion, that's what makes casters so overpowered. the hard part of their mechanic is ignored :s


The majority of material components are less-than-1-gp items that you get when you purchase a Spell Component Pouch. They're not exactly heavy bookkeeping.


only if you play a spell component pouch as a magical item that refills itself while acting like a bag of holding.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Have you got some hard'n'fast rules on how many spells you can cast from a component pouch?


Ah bookkeeping the thing that if insisted upon (like encumbrance, keeping stats for summoned monsters and tracking spell components) does seem to limit the number of players willing to play wizards...

Liberty's Edge

Snorri Nosebiter wrote:
only if you play a spell component pouch as a magical item that refills itself while acting like a bag of holding.

Per the rules, and I quote:

Spell Component Pouch wrote:
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.

There's no time limit or amount limit on that. Unlike, say, a healer's kit or several other items. So...by the rules, yes, you're assumed to have as much of the components you need whenever you need them as long as you've purchased the pouch. You can justify it how you like (I personally envision the spellcaster collecting replacements for used components during the course of their journey), but however you justify it, those are the rules, not 'ignoring the hard part of their mechanic'. Indeed, not ignoring that mechanic once they have the pouch is a house rule.

And besides, one Feat (Eschew Materials) makes this not a problem even with said house rule in place. In short, this isn't a meaningful power limiter even if you do it.

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