The (hopefully) final word on horse animal companions and combat trained

[Xathanos]

I have read ever thread I could find, and there are people still saying different things. So, at 4th level the horse animal companion becomes combat trained. Does this, or does it not mean that the hooves become primary attacks?

Thank you for your help.

I'm beginning to regret deciding to make a pet class... ;-)

[Xathanos]

Obviously, I mean for PFS play...

[Starglim]

PFS play treats this no differently than the published rules.

[Nefreet]

I understand the ambiguity of the situation.

In the Bestiary, the Horse has the "Docile" special quality.

Docile (Ex) wrote:

Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill), a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.

But, of course, hooves are already treated as secondary attacks, according to this chart.

So, what seems to be implied, is that by giving a Horse the Combat Training General Purpose, its hooves become upgraded to primary natural attacks (and thus no longer suffer the -5 attack penalty).

But the Horse Animal Companion is different. Not only does it not have the "Docile" quality, but its hooves are specifically called out as secondary natural attacks.

When the Horse advances at 4th level this secondary status does not technically go away. The Horse simply gains the Combat Training General Purpose... which doesn't mention anything about removing the "Docile" quality from a Horse or upgrading its hooves to primary attack status.

*I* believe the intention is clear, and that during editing some text was omitted, but I suppose a hardline "rules-as-written" GM could rule that 4th level Horse Animal Companions still treat their hooves as secondary natural attacks.

My response to that would be to pick up your things and move to a different table.

[Warwick Cailean]

I have no horse in this race, but... (Sorry)

I know the dangers of quoting stat blocks out of scenarios as evidence of how a rule works, but perhaps one exists that could be used for guidance...

Horse with no name but more than 4th level:

Horse animal companion
N Large animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +7

DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (+5 armor, +3 Dex, +10 natural, –1 size)
hp 76 (9d8+36)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +6

OFFENSE
Speed 35 ft.
Melee bite +11 (1d4+6), 2 hooves +9 (1d6+3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +6; CMB +13; CMD 26 (30 vs. trip)
Feats Endurance, Iron Will, Light Armor Proficiency, Medium
Armor Proficiency, MultiattackB, Run
Skills Acrobatics +5, Perception +7, Stealth +0, Swim +6 SQ combat trained, tricks (attack [2], come, defend, down,

So it appears the hooves are still secondary, but with MultiAttack are only at -2.

The unnamed horse above belongs to an NPC with the following class levels:

A pale, sometimes quite panicked, rider...:

Cavalier 4/Rogue 1/Low Templar 5 with the Horse Master feat, so effectively a level 10 mount.

So, while Nefreet makes (horse)sense, it appears at least one PFS scenario disagrees.

(I apologize for the puns. Really. I'm sorry. I'll stop horsing around.)

Perform Comedy: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (4) + 7 = 11

What do you mean don't quit my day job? That IS my day job!

[Nefreet]

As much as I'd love to not prove myself wrong, HERE is a statblock from the NPC Codex of a 6th level Horse Animal Companion (its hooves are still treated as secondary natural attacks).

[GreySector]

So a combat trained non-animal companion gets its hooves as primary natural attacks, but a combat trained animal companion doesn't. Does that seem right to you?. If this is the case then IMO it should be fixed.

[Nefreet]

This is why my Cavalier is getting a Griffon.

[Dylos]

Nefreet wrote:

This is why my Cavalier is getting a Griffon.

And not because the griffon is just cooler and more powerful then a horse?

[Nefreet]

Well, that, too.