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Any help would be very much appreciated on this.
First, I'd like to verify how the Wings Discovery actually works.
Second, I'm curious to explore and come to a verdict on the synergy between Wings and the Beastmorph archetype (specifically at lvl 6).
So, Wings and flying:
Wings Discovery:
Prerequisite: Alchemist 6
Benefit: The alchemist gains bat-like, bird-like, or insect-like functional wings, allowing him to fly as the fly spell for a number of minutes per day equal to his caster level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments.
Special: An alchemist can select this discovery multiple times; each time he does so, he adds his caster level to the number of minutes per day that he can fly with the wings. This flight is an extraordinary ability.
Fly Spell:
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears. The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level.
Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends safely in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.
See Falling Damage if something bad happens!
Fly Skill (all mentions of wings):
You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature’s movement.
If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
So, Wings are an Extraordinary ability; neither a spell nor spell-like. Do the following even apply?
- "Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds."
- "The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run"
I would interpret that neither do, because the Discovery states that you gain functional wings, meaning both pros and cons apply: can't be dispelled, collision can cause the flier to plummet, rather than float down, and the flier should be able to take the run maneuver. So, this begs the question, what does "fly as the fly spell" mean then? Well, the character would gain a fly speed, a maneuverability of Good, and a bonus to fly checks. If that's true, why not just write that? Too many things in the Fly spell are specifically magical and don't seem to make any sense when applied to the gaining of functional wings.
Thoughts?
Next question. This is specifically related to how the Wings Discovery plays with the Beastmorph Archetype at level 6. Here are the references:
Beastmorph:At 6th level, a beastmorph’s mutagen grants him additional abilities and options. The alchemist gains his choice of two of the abilities listed in the beast shape I spell, which persist as long as the mutagen. He may select two different abilities each time he creates a mutagen.
This ability replaces swift poisoning.
Beast Shape I:
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability:
climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
As far as I understand, nothing in Beast Shape I is relevant other than the list of features I've bolded. An alchemist with this archetype simply chooses two of them when the imbibing a mutagen. Size and the rest of the text is irrelevent. That right so far?
Ok, what happens if an alchemist with the Wings Discovery chooses that fly speed feature: fly 30 feet (average maneuverability)? This is clearly inferior to both the maneuverability and speed of Wings, but its one, very significant advantage is that it lasts the entirety of the mutagen! Does the Beastmorph archetype or Beast Shape 1 assume that the character does not already have a fly speed? Does it set the players fly speed to the worse one regardless? Would it make sense/does it follow the rules for the character who does this to keep the better flying ability, but bolster its duration to that provided by the feature?
Thanks, and I hope that wasn't too convoluted.
1) The Wings discovery says it works like the fly spell, so that's how it works. Everything in the description applies to the Wings discovery. An argument could be made either way for the portion of the fly skill pertaining to winged flight, but I would say it applies.
2) If you already have a means of flight and you gain a second one, via the Beastmorph ability, for example, then you now have two means of flight and can use either one. If you choose to use your Wings discovery flight, you use those rules and the flight counts against your duration. If you choose to use your wings from the Beastmorph ability, you use those rules.
Thanks for the response!
Some followups then.
So, the fact that they are functional wings would then simply add all the rules regarding having physical wings to what is essentially a minute per level per day fly spell?
It still seems odd to me that the "Should the spell duration expire" paragraph applies. This section would then supposedly trigger after the last minute of the Wings discovery has been expended for the day?
With regards to your second answer, does it follow that the character would be able to interchange between the two fly speeds at will while under the effects of the mutagen (thus actually having two fly speeds)? For example, use the fly 60 for a minute increment and then switch back to the fly 30.
If that's the case, then, for the in-game flavor, the character could still have but one set of wings instead of having two sets, right?
Again, thanks.
I think the answer would be as per the general polymorph sub-school rules, that were just quoted to me in another thread.
Specifically, the discovery wings isn't an ability to gain wings - you have them all the time, as a permanent part of your form. Using them to fly is an extraordinary ability dependant on your normal form.
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function."
So, when you beastmorph your wings (and ability to fly with them) would be gone. Assuming of course that the morphing of the mutagen counts as a polymorph effect - I would think it does since it references beast shape I.
Assuming of course that the morphing of the mutagen counts as a polymorph effect - I would think it does since it references beast shape I.
That's the trick for beastmorph mutagen; you don't actually polymorph, you just get one of the listed abilities. The reference to Beast Shape is only the list of abilities you choose from, nothing else applies.
Thanks for the response!
Some followups then.
So, the fact that they are functional wings would then simply add all the rules regarding having physical wings to what is essentially a minute per level per day fly spell?
It still seems odd to me that the "Should the spell duration expire" paragraph applies. This section would then supposedly trigger after the last minute of the Wings discovery has been expended for the day?
With regards to your second answer, does it follow that the character would be able to interchange between the two fly speeds at will while under the effects of the mutagen (thus actually having two fly speeds)? For example, use the fly 60 for a minute increment and then switch back to the fly 30.
If that's the case, then, for the in-game flavor, the character could still have but one set of wings instead of having two sets, right?
Again, thanks.
1)That would be my interpretation.
2)Yeah, it's weird. When the ability runs out the float-down would kick in, I guess. Or if you somehow lost the use of the wings, Baleful Polymorph maybe?
3)You'd be able to switch between them, yeah.
4)Ask your GM. It would seem, RAW, you would grow two sets of wings, but for flavor reasons, I don't see why not.
Beast morph isn't a polymorphing effect per raw. Rai might go either way.
Yeah, I don't see anywhere in the Beastmorph text that does anything other than reference the list of abilities from the relevant Beast Shape. And no where does it say it's a polymorph. It's pretty clear that you simply gain features in a chimera-like fashion, rather than take the form of any specific creature.
As for the Discovery, I still don't get why they didn't just list the fly speed, maneuverability, and skill bonus under Wings. That'd have avoided the need for interpretation altogether, and the wings would simply act like those of a mephit or gargoyle, but with a limited duration per day. That'd be easy enough, right?
I find it odd that they used the Fly spell as a template for this Discovery rather than the standardized mechanics that all the flying creatures in the game already use.
Regardless, actually having wings is hard to pass up.