Opponents for Cleaving Finish

[Velxir]

Cleaving Finish reads as such:
If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat.

If I wanted to sub out the attack with a Sunder combat maneuver for "another opponent", could I:
1) Choose an item to sunder instead of an actual creature?
2) Could I sunder an item on the downed opponent?
3) What if the opponent was an orc who was still up after reducing them to below 0? Could I sunder his weapon?

[Gilfalas]

Velxir wrote:

If I wanted to sub out the attack with a Sunder combat maneuver for "another opponent", could I:

1) Choose an item to sunder instead of an actual creature?
2) Could I sunder an item on the downed opponent?
3) What if the opponent was an orc who was still up after reducing them to below 0? Could I sunder his weapon?

Going absolutely RAW you cannot sub out the attack for a Sunder attempt. The feat explicitly states you must use your highest BAB and not your CMB and your CMB is required to make a Sunder attempt.

Otherwise, the answer to #1 is up to your GM and how he rules it works in his/her game.

In my game I would allow you to use the granted melee attack to sunder something on a qualifying opponent. So yes to 1.

I would say no to 2 since Cleaving finish does not allow you to reattack the original target.

I would say no to three for the same reason as 2. The feat explicitly states you make the additional attack 'against another opponent within reach'.

[Archaeik]

I disagree, CMB keys off of BAB and all maneuvers are attacks

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Gilfalas wrote:

Going absolutely RAW you cannot sub out the attack for a Sunder attempt. The feat explicitly states you must use your highest BAB and not your CMB and your CMB is required to make a Sunder attempt.

The rules for Attack of Opportunity specify "You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round." Despite specifying you use your attack bonus, it's been clearly ruled you can sunder as an attack of opportunity.

So I think it's clear you can sunder as a Cleaving Finish.

Also, much as when an ability grants the ability to grant a bonus to an ally you can be your own ally, I think it's reasonable that if you get an attack against another target, you can make the original foe the "other" target. That's less absolute (you could say the logic of "cleaving" should move to a different target), but I am not convinced there's a strong RAW case against it.

But none of that is official. :)

[Velxir]

Okay, given that information, how would you feel about the following

I use a sunder to bring the item to 0 hitpoints, triggering the cleaving finish feat. Could I go on to attack it's wielder, or would I still have to choose another thing within reach?

[Archaeik]

Velxir wrote:

Okay, given that information, how would you feel about the following

I use a sunder to bring the item to 0 hitpoints, triggering the cleaving finish feat. Could I go on to attack it's wielder, or would I still have to choose another thing within reach?

I guess this got buried

The flavor of Cleave (an arc) suggests you need to target a separate creature.

Also, there's the flavor text of Cleaving Finish

Quote:

When you strike down an opponent, you can continue your swing into another target.

and the table text

Quote:

Make additional attack if opponent is knocked out.

so it's clear that Cleaving Finish is intended to trigger off of creatures only and not sunders.

However, bending the fluff a bit to accommodate the rules I referenced in my first response shouldn't be too far outside the spirit here...

I say sunders are okay as long as they each targets a different creature/unattended object. (Plus, Gr Sunder let's you carry the damage to its creature anyway)