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As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
Overrun
During your movement, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see Overrun).
Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target of your charge.
I think I quoted all of the relevant bits.
Here's how I see it, Overrun states that you can make an overrun 'as a part of a charge'. The next bolded line states that the target of an overrun can opt to avoid it, and this allows the one making the overrun to move through his square.
Now, the only way this is possible, is if the overrun is made in addition to the movement+attack of the charge.
I used Alain, Lem and a Giant Enemy Crab in another thread, so that is what I will use here. Say Alain is mounted and Lem stands between himself and the Crab. Normally, the charge rules state you can't declare a charge, because Lem is in the way.
However, as we all know, in Pathfinder, specific > general. The specific rules of overrun would allow Alain to charge the Crab, making an overrun attempt during the charge, which Lem would simply avoid, and continue on to the Crab to show off how BadA*s he is.
I have been told I am wrong (which I very well may be), because the Charge rules specifically state you can't declare a charge as the path is obstructed by Lem. Also, it would negate the point of the Charge Through feat (spoilered above).
I respond to this by pointing out that Paizo has released feats before that are, or were, effectively worthless as they prevented you from doing anything (Monkey Lunge), or had absolutely no benefit (pre-errata Prone Shooter). Charge Through may very well just be another one of those feats.
FAQ and Discussion if you please!
(Also, if I failed to uphold the other sides arguments, I apologize as I am inherently biased towards my own interpretation).
I too would like any clarification that can be given. I'd love to be able to overrun allies on a charge.
My group and I have been doing this for years, sometimes even playing it up. Like one character would act as a matador, saying, "Torro, torro" and then here comes the charging barbarian as the 'overrun victim' swipes his cloak down in front of the real enemy.
This thread has been done before (2 years before). FAQ'ed. And Paizo marked it "Answered in FAQ" (ostensibly without actually answering the question).
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lh0s?Overrun-and-Charge
Any arguments made here will only be rehashes of that thread I feel. And I think the consensus was Attacks and Overruns are both standard actions, so you can only accomplish one during a Full Round Action - baring feats, class abilities, etc.
As I said in the other thread that this was brought up in, I think if the wording here intended for you to be able to make an attack during a charge AFTER an overrun, it would tell you so. No where does Overrun say "And then you get your attack" and the rules even say you CANNOT charge if there are obstacles in the way, which allies are counted as. There's also nothing saying you can continue a charge after the overrun attempt.
I respond to this by pointing out that Paizo has released feats before that are, or were, effectively worthless as they prevented you from doing anything (Monkey Lunge), or had absolutely no benefit (pre-errata Prone Shooter). Charge Through may very well just be another one of those feats.
And how do you respond to the rule "You can't charge if there's an obstacle in the way"?
It doesn't matter that you can "overrun" an ally on the way. You don't even get the chance because the rules preclude you from even charging in the first place.
It's the mount using its movement, it needs the feats, not the rider. Otherwise, right on.
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Here's the problem with the charge attack being the overrun maneuver, when you charge, you move up to the nearest square you can strike your opponent from, and then attack (make a maneuver).
So, you come up and make your maneuver (and stopping) but if you don't have Improved Overrun, then the target can opt to simply avoid you, which allows you to continue the movement.
Charging stops you in the nearest square, but an overrun allows you to keep moving.
I maintain that overrun is an exception to the normal charging rules, which is why you can perform an overrun during the charge, and still make an attack.
I guess the specific questions for the Devs to answer would be:
Can you make an overrun maneuver during a charge to bypass a creature, and make an attack at the end of the charge? Or is the attack normally granted during a charge replaced with the overrun maneuver?
So, you come up and make your maneuver (and stopping) but if you don't have Improved Overrun, then the target can opt to simply avoid you, which allows you to continue the movement.Charging stops you in the nearest square, but an overrun allows you to keep moving.
Nowhere does Overrun say "You continue your movement." Overrun states you move past the target of your overrun, which is not "take the rest of your move." If you're not allowed to continue your movement, then it ends once you pass the target of your overrun.
I maintain that overrun is an exception to the normal charging rules, which is why you can perform an overrun during the charge, and still make an attack.
Your entire argument hinges on 6 vague words which do not explicitly grant any extra actions. This is not the US Constitution - there are no "Implied" powers in Pathfinder, at least that I've ever seen, and I'm a rules lawyer who's spent a LOT of time looking for loopholes.
If you could make an overrun AND an attack as part of a charge (both standard actions). It would explicitly state "When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action."
You don't get more than one standard action per turn, and I fail to see why Paizo would allow people to essentially get two for free.
Can you make an overrun maneuver during a charge to bypass a creature, and make an attack at the end of the charge?
The answer to this at least is very clearly "No" since it is already covered in the rules.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)...If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
Note - there are feats and magic items which can negate parts of this rule, but without them, as written, you cannot initiate a charge.
Nowhere does Overrun say "You continue your movement." Overrun states you move past the target of your overrun, which is not "take the rest of your move." If you're not allowed to continue your movement, then it ends once you pass the target of your overrun.
If you would look at the second bolded line in my original post, you would see that if the target of the overrun chooses to avoid you, you pass through it's square. You can't pass through the square if your movement has ended, as it does with a charge if the target of the charge is the one you are overrunning.
If you could make an overrun AND an attack as part of a charge (both standard actions). It would explicitly state "When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action."
You don't get more than one standard action per turn, and I fail to see why Paizo would allow people to essentially get two for free.
You can't make a standard action during a charge, or else you could use vital strike while charging. It doesn't need to explicitly state that, or else Pathfinder would have to explicitly state I can't continue playing while dead. Instead, what it says, is that I can make an overrun as part of a charge, with a charge being movement and an attack. So that means that when I charge (movement+attack) I also get to make an overrun check, because that would be part of a charge.
In fact, I might even go so far as to say, that if overrun were to replace the target of the charge, it would need to say so. You know, like it does for every other maneuver.
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
Notice how Bull Rush specifically states that it is in place of the melee attack? Overrun doesn't have the same language, just that it is 'part of a charge'.
There is no 'implied' power here, it's outright stated. Also, backing up your argument with, "I'm a rules lawyer' doesn't make your argument any more or less true.
The answer to this at least is very clearly "No" since it is already covered in the rules.
I disagree. I think it may be possible that this happens to be an issue with the rules many people have been getting wrong for years.
Note - there are feats and magic items which can negate parts of this rule, but without them, as written, you cannot initiate a charge.
Normally, this is true, as it's the general rule for 'charges'. However, if overrun supersedes the charge rules (because Specific > General), then when you charge, you can attempt to overrun the person blocking your charge lane.
I will state again, as I did in the OP, that I may very well be wrong on this issue. It's just that, allowing an overrun for free during the charge makes it far more believable from a narrative viewpoint.
It basically prevents any instance of a mounted knight charging through mobs of people without a crap ton of feats to pull it off. Or some huge bruiser shoving his way through a crowd to punch a guy in the face or something like that.
Allowing overrun to work for free during a charge has worked for my group for years because it makes sense, to us, from a rules perspective, a narrative perspective, and a 'real world' perspective.
Regardless of which way the Devs rule this issue, I know that in my groups we'll still be able to overrun during a charge. Before someone asks, I don't make rules threads for my, or my groups benefit (unless we just don't know the answer), but for the benefits of someone else (like TriOmegaZero above).
If you would look at the second bolded line in my original post, you would see that if the target of the overrun chooses to avoid you, you pass through it's square. You can't pass through the square if your movement has ended, as it does with a charge if the target of the charge is the one you are overrunning.
Again, it doesn't say "Continue your movement as normal" it says, you go through it's square. Once you're through the target's square, then you've passed through the target's square. There's no stated or implied wording that says "you pass through it's square and proceed X distance"
What is explicitly stated->You pass through an enemie's square.
What is not stated->You can move further than that.
You can only keep moving so long as you are passing through the target's square. Overrun specifically says that you move through a single square.
Other feats explicitly outline that you move after an action.
Ride By Attack: "When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again "
Spring Attack: "You can move both before and after the attack"
You can't make a standard action during a charge
Sure you can, you can't take ANY standard action, but Charge very clearly states "You make an attack" at the end of your movement, that's a standard action.
It's just that you need to do a full round action to get that benefit.
or else you could use vital strike while charging.
That's because you're doing a full round action to do a standard action combined with a move action. Which is why Vital Strike doesn't apply.
It doesn't need to explicitly state that, or else Pathfinder would have to explicitly state I can't continue playing while dead.
When it comes to the rules governing HOW to play, they are explicitly stated. What you're talking about here is meta game. A character cannot play which is dead, so you roll a new character or negotiate with PLAYERS (not characters) to get yourself resurrected.
game =/= metagame.
Instead, what it says, is that I can make an overrun as part of a charge with a charge being movement and an attack. So that means that when I charge (movement+attack) I also get to make an overrun check, because that would be part of a charge.
If that were true, why do the rules specifically forbid charging when there are creatures (targets of overrun) in the way of a charge?
Normally, this is true, as it's the general rule for 'charges'. However, if overrun supersedes the charge rules (because Specific > General), then when you charge, you can attempt to overrun the person blocking your charge lane.
No, this is the opposite. The (specific) rule "You cannot charge if there is a creature blocking you" supersedes the (general) rule "you can overrun as part of a charge."
I will frame this as in programming steps because I believe another perspective might be easier to understand. "Charge" is an input a computer would accept, if you say "I want to charge" the computer would then run a series of If->Then decision blocks, If->X Then->True where X=/=Y (Y being a charge action and X being an action which prevents charging) So if you want to charge, then a statement in which conditions which prevent charging = true means you can't charge.
In order to overrun in the first place, you have to have pass the If->Then statement; If->X Then->False means you can charge because no conditions prevent charging.
At that point, you exit the If->Then block and get to the next programming step, where the computer is asking you if you want to make an Overrun as part of your charge. "Overrun" is an input. But that's the thing, you never even GET to input overrun if you can't charge in the first place, because the earlier If->Then statement set a flag disallowing charging and looped back to the beginning of the program.
You said the feat "Charge through" is redundant and useless. But it is actually not, because Charge Though directly changes the first If->Then statement and alters the variable X. Which means it removes conditions which disallow charging.
The overrun combat maneuver does not do this.
It basically prevents any instance of a mounted knight charging through mobs of people without a crap ton of feats to pull it off. Or some huge bruiser shoving his way through a crowd to punch a guy in the face or something like that.
Which means "Working as Intended."
Note: "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move."
Paizo made charging intentionally restrictive (something which I loathe but am forced to acknowledge).
You cannot take a standard action during a charge, that is undeniably false. Otherwise every attack of opportunity is also a standard action, which means I can vital strike on attacks of opportunity.
Just because something is an attack, does not mean it's a standard action. Charge is not a move action and an attack, it's a double move (a move and a standard) plus an attack. To replicate such a thing via actions, it would be two move actions and a standard in the same round.
For your If/Then talk it would follow this:
Declare charge:
If charge path is clear: Proceed with charge.
If charge path has difficult terrain > check for difficult terrain bypass (acrobatic charge, feather steps etc.) > If no bypass is present: Charge negated.
If charge path has creature obstruction > attempt overrun > If overrun is successful: proceed with charge > If overrun fails: charge negated.
That's how it would work above. Hell, technically, per RAW, even if you have the spell feather steps cast upon you, you can't charge because the difficult terrain is still present and feather steps only allows you to ignore adverse movement effects of difficult terrain. 'Charge' is not a movement effect, it's a special attack (as per the Combat chapter).
One of the big things of my argument depends on whether or not Overrun modifies Charge, or Charge modifies Overrun. I say Overrun modifies Charge because the special rule for Overrun would not be present without the rules for Charging.
So rules for Charging are the general rules for charging and can be modified by other feats, effects and actions. Like using a lance allows for double damage, or Charge of the Righteous allows you to take no penalty on AC when charging undead or evil outsiders.
Charging does indeed carry tight restrictions, but some of those restrictions can be mitigated or ignored; using overrun to bypass creatures is, in my opinion, one such way of doing so.
Again, it doesn't say "Continue your movement as normal" it says, you go through it's square. Once you're through the target's square, then you've passed through the target's square. There's no stated or implied wording that says "you pass through it's square and proceed X distance"What is explicitly stated->You pass through an enemie's square.
What is not stated->You can move further than that.
This is a very pedantic reading of it. I'd say its unlikely forcing the overrunning creature to stop after getting one square past the target is the intent, but the wording is vague enough that might be the intent.
"You make an attack" at the end of your movement, that's a standard action.
Attacks are not standard actions (see AoO, free touch attacks, attacks during a full-attack action). You may as a standard action make an attack, but not all attacks are standard actions.
No, this is the opposite. The (specific) rule "You cannot charge if there is a creature blocking you" supersedes the (general) rule "you can overrun as part of a charge."
Specific rules (usually) mention the general rule they are changing, but it is never the other way around. Charge doesn't mention overrun, but overrun does mention charge. Overrun is a specific rule that overrides the general rules of charge.
All that said, given the charge though feat, my expectation of this is supposed to work is that the overrun combat maneuver during a charge replaces the attack that is normally part of the charge, but that charging through allies was probably not really intended. In other words its a mess. It's even messier given overrun states "As a standard action..." - well if I'm using a standard action to overrun, charge is no longer an option for me. It should be more like "Using your standard action while moving OR in place of the attack on a charge you may overrun...."
It's even messier given overrun states "As a standard action..." - well if I'm using a standard action to overrun, charge is no longer an option for me. It should be more like "Using your standard action while moving OR in place of the attack on a charge you may overrun...."
You mean like bull rush?
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
I quoted bull rush a few posts above. I think it's worth mentioning that bull rush and overrun have different language. Bull rush specifically calls out replacing the melee attack of the charge, while overrun does not.
I think that is probably the intent, but it is purely conjecture on my part.
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I'm not sure where the confusion is. Overrun requires you to enter the square of the target, while charge requires you you stop before their square. Since the combination is allowed via RAW (see overrun rules), only interpretations that validate the requirements of both actions should be considered. Resolve the charge first, then continue with the overrun.
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Because I'm a horrible, horrible person...and also because I think Overrun should be allowed as part of a charge, I introduce the following scenario:
Alain sees the GEC and decides that being all Cavaliery, the appropriate response is to charge towards it and inflict grievous injury upon it by means of his knightly arts.
He sees no impediment betwixt him and it as Lem's dutifully standing to the side.
Unbeknownst to Alain, his otherwise clear path has Schroedinger, the Invisible Mage of Impediment, invisibly within the charge path.
Alain initiates his charge, leaving us with the following options.
1. Alain finds himself mysteriously halting at the point just beyond where he and his horse's path encounters Schroedinger, who is invisible (and benefits against a 50% concealment against any hooves), but there none the less.
2.) Alain initiates an unknown overrun action against Schroedinger, at which point, Schroedinger (not wishing to be smushed, or discovered) allows for Alain to move on without any trouble and the charge carries on as normal.
Personally, I think the second makes more sense, but I say that with the knowledge that sense isn't necessarilly an argument for RAW.
The thing is, if you're targeting your ally in order to Overrun them, then you're not targeting your enemy with a charge.
Me --- Ally --- Enemy
If the above is the situation, and I want to charge the enemy, I can't, because the ally is in the way and counts as an obstacle.
If I want to charge my ally, I can, because nothing is preventing me from doing so. And if I want to attempt to overrun my ally, I can as well. And if my ally wants to avoid my overrun, they can. But my target has to be my ally to do so, which means my target is never my enemy for that turn.
So after the overrun attempt on my ally, my turn is over, and there is no attack on the enemy (all you can do at this point is either end your movement, or finish your movement).
Remember, Charging is a Full-Round Action, which is limiting your choice of "target" to one. This is why you can't switch your target to the enemy after targeting your ally for an Overrun attempt.
[Edit - This is just my clear reading of the rules and not my personal feelings on the issue. I think mounted overrun should just happen to every target along your path towards your intended target. If you don't get outta the way, the horse is gonna trample you.]
Neo, my belief is that, because of the way Overrun is phrased, you can make a free overrun check against a target while charging.
So you would be able to target an enemy with your charge, and if an ally is in the way, you can attempt an overrun check for free because you are charging.
I know what your position is, and frankly, I agree with your interpretation.
I'm just saying that's not what the rules say.