Using 4e monsters in Pathfinder

[The Rot Grub]

I am a Pathfinder player and have not had much interest in playing D&D 4e -- I can't get past the presentation and I find running combat too complicated for my tastes. However, looking through the D&D Essentials Monster Vault, I do like how monster abilities are not bound by the same rules as players and so allow for more variety and (egad!) flavor in the mechanics: all of which I can appropriately narrate to my Pathfinder players.

(For example, I just randomly opened it to the zombie, who gets a free grab against PCs and does more damage to a PC when he or she is grabbed. So flesh-eating swarming zombies FTW!)

Now, I am not so naive as to think that I can just use a 4e statblock, do simple math, and plop them into Pathfinder. There are conflicts between the systems because of different assumptions built into the rules. Nor am I looking for a "deep" conversion where I have to understand how the 4e creature was built from the ground up, in order to re-build the creature in Pathfinder from the ground-up.

I simply want guidelines and pitfalls to avoid for using a 4e statblock in my Pathfinder adventures. (It also means I have more monsters to use in Pathfinder, so Yay That.)

Well, here are my current guidelines:

CR 1 in Pathfinder seems to be roughly equivalent to Level 3 in 4e. Also, it seems like monsters in 4e double in power with every increase in 4 levels, while in Pathfinder they double in power with every increase of 2 CR. So, in weighing monster difficulty I've come up with the following chart.

Level 1 --> CR 3
Level 3 --> CR 4
Level 5 --> CR 5
Level 7 --> CR 6
Level 9 --> CR 7
Level 11 --> CR 8
Level 13 --> CR 9
Level 15 --> CR 10
Level 17 --> CR 11
Level 19 --> CR 12
Level 21 --> CR 13
Level 23 --> CR 14
Level 25 --> CR 15
Level 27 --> CR 16
Level 29 --> CR 17

(EDIT: I just looked at some higher-level Level 20+ monsters and these guidelines were way off! They seemed okay for Levels 1-10 however.)

For non-standard creatures, the Monster Vault gives its own guidelines:
4-6 minions = 1 standard creature
2 standard creatures = 1 elite creature
5 standard creatures = 1 solo creature

If people have other guidelines to add, that's great. (That's why I'm starting this thread.)

The Monster Vault does not give me the rules for combat, so I have other questions like: Are there 5 foot steps in 4e? Are there AoOs in 4e?

Also, I see that a "Hulking Zombie (Level 4 brute) is automatically killed when it receives a critical hit. So I wonder: are critical hits harder to obtain in 4e?

I hope my meaning is clear that I'm looking for guidelines and pitfalls to avoid when using a 4e monster in Pathfinder.

Thanks in advance!

[Lincoln Hills]

One thing that springs to mind is that almost all supernatural abilities are more dangerous in PF than in 4E. An effect that you have a 55% chance to overcome every single round ("save ends") is quite a bit different than one that has a duration of minutes or hours. Stun, charm, petrify and dominate effects are particularly nastier when converted - you may want to nudge the CR up by one for such abilities.

[Propsken]

I don't mean to gripe, but I have quite some experience with both 3.5 and 4E, and I can't say that I agree with your "I find running combat too complicated for my tastes". While both systems have their respective merits and pitfalls, I find combat in 4E to be easier overall. But I digress.

To address some of your 4E questions:
-Yes, there are 5-foot steps in 4E; they're called "shifting".
-Yes, attacks of opportunity exist as well - they're called opportunity attacks (woah, go figure :P ); you can make more than one by default as well.
-Crits are a tad harder to obtain in 4E; natural 20s only, barring special powers and feats. They do, however, confirm immediately.

With 3.5's standard 20-level system and 4E's 30-level one, on average, any 3.5 monster converted to 4E would have been at a level equal to 150% of its original CR, give or take a level. That should give you a good reverse-engineering-base to work from.
Your table seems to be a bit off, but that is likely on account of 4E's monster creation mechanics. Whereas 3.5 (and PF) base CR's on a combination of ability scores, HD, abilities, average DPR and what-have-you, 4E works the other way around: a monster's statistics are a function of its role and level. Look at two or three monsters of the same level and role (level 7 Soldier, for example), and you'll notice many base stats to be very similar. 4E monster differentiate mostly by their flavour and choice of powers.
Standard melee creeps will be easier to convert, but spellcasters will be quite the hassle simply because of the vast difference in the core game mechanics between both games. Just take a quick gander at the 4E Lich, and ask yourself where his spellbook went, for example. Concepts such as spellcasting level have been chucked out of the door as well; spells are also treated more like regular attacks. Reworking spellcasters from 4E to PF will be a doozie...

End rant.

I hope I was helpfull at all. Cheers and good luck!

[The Rot Grub]

These are helpful tips, thanks.

@Lincoln Hills, I plan to run a 4E statblock as is, and borrow 4E's mechanics, including the "save ends" mechanics.

@Propsken, so if I assume every 4E monster has Combat Reflexes would that be a fair assumption?

I asked about the 5-foot steps because I noticed that kobolds can shift 1 square as a Minor Action. So they effectively have two 5-foot steps, yes? (It's additions like this that I like about 4E creatures btw.)

My chart was based off of the rate at which XP rewards increase by level in 4E -- they seem to double every 4 levels in 4E, while in Pathfinder it's by every 2 CRs.

On what I found hard about running combat in 4E, it was the addition of per-encounter actions, the addition of minor actions, and the temporary modifiers. I do not claim that Pathfinder is simple, but I suppose I had the advantage of putting lots of effort into it since it was the first system I've played, and I don't feel motivated to put the time in a new system. I also think that Pathfinder is harder to run than 4E at higher levels.

[Propsken]

About Combat Reflexes: nope. Players get more AoO's (or rather, OA's) too. In 4E everbody basically get one per "activation" or "turn taken"; if two critters run past you, and a third runs past and makes a ranged attack, you'd have 3 "turns" with 4 "opportunities" - you can OA the first two for running by, and the third for either running or shooting, but not for both. The same principle would apply if your party ran past one of the monsters and started shooting adjacent to it. 4E Combat Reflexes gives you a bonus to OA attack rolls iirc.
Ooh; I might mention that 4E creatures with reach don't always threaten everything they can reach; they need the Threatening Reach ability for that. A Hydra has it, for instance.

Since you can "downgrade" a standard action to a move action and a move action to a minor - or swift - action, a Kobold can get up to 3 shifts or 5-foot steps per round (unless if the "shifty" power explicitly states it being limited to once per turn, in which case he can get 2; once for shifting as a move, and once for being shifty).

Eh; fair enough with the whole XP thing for basing your chart on. Bad call on my part ;) Doesn't unvalidate the 4E-function-of-level principle, though.

Both PF/3.5 and 4E get more complicated as the characters level up; more options, more variables etc... But on average, I find that 4E has less options, and those options seem to be more clear-cut in my opinion as well. Where 3.5/PF character (and monster) building gives me the feeling of a heavy modularly designed set of building blocks that become larger, stronger and complexer exponentially, I experience 4E's system to be more of a semi-modular path with a more linear power and width progression. Does that even make sense? I found 4E to be surprisingly easy to pick up, especially the at-will/encounter/daily power thing. Infinite Magic Missiles FTW :D

I'd advise you not to try to translate the 4E monsters into PF too literally. Assign your CR and HD type plus subtypes, then look at what the general idea behind the 4E monster's powers is all about; then, look at your PF sources for things that convey that concept and try to put those things in somehow. Capture its spirit, as it were...

[Beopere]

The reason you had issues with your calculation going beyond 10 is because there are landmark levels in 4.0. At 10 you pick a... paragon path? and at 20 an epic path. These mark substantial jumps in player and monster power.

Level 20 moreso if I recall.

[The Rot Grub]

All good feedback. And @Propsken your description does make sense to me! The way monster design is in 3.x/PF is like stacking a set of variably-shaped, interlocking building blocks, while with 4e you start with the "feel" you're looking for and work backward. And I accept that it's more art than science: I think I've had enough experience GMing PF (4 years) that I can sense when something "feels" a certain CR for the party, at least after a round or two.

[Doctor Necrotic]

I've tried my best converting 4E to PF (in fact, I did a whole conversion of "D&D Encounters - Dark Legacy of Evard to PF) and it was a headache. It's mostly guess work and building monsters based on 3e equivalents. That's the best method I've found, personally.

[Propsken]

@Beopere: yeah, the three tiers of play - Heroic (class), Paragon (path) and Epic (destiny); kinda forgot about those. Monsters indeed get a slight boost in power at 11 and 21 to compensate for that. Mostly extra encounter powers.
@Doc Necrotic: work with what you have, as it were. Certainly a viable method to convert adventures, but not the topic at hand I believe. Not that the feedback won't be appreciated...
@Rot Grub: another thing that wasn't really mentioned is the minion/regular/elite/solo monster mechanic. You can usually revert an elite or solo monster to a regular one by dividing its hp by resp. 2 or 4 and downgrading the number of attacks it makes/targets it can attack, and soup up a minion by giving it regular hp and randomized, double-average damage. That, of course, is just the rule of thumb...