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I have been working on and off on an ascetic type class. An individual who through their inner self achieves greatness without reliance on outside crutches.
I would love some feedback and some peoples ideas for builds.
Please feel free to comment here or on the document.
I hope everyone finds this enjoyable.
This iteration has increased bindings known and Chakra points. I am very curious about how people will build with this new flexibility.
Anyone have any ideas?
I would love for anyone to build a Meister they felt was "Powerful", I am afraid this may still be undertuned.
The ultimate self-reliance class I have ever seen was Soulknife. Manifesting a weapon that levels with you is pretty important. Some of the archetypes offered in Psionics Unleashed allow for you to manifest armor and/or a shield. However, it doesn't really make up for the magic items that you would be missing.
Ascetic from Book of Exalted Deeds basically gives you a 20 level run at supplementing a non-item character but requires significant investments in both exalted goodness and major limitations (hold a luck stone? didn't know? too bad, you are no longer ascetic and never will be again. harsh!).
The ultimate self-reliance class I have ever seen was Soulknife. Manifesting a weapon that levels with you is pretty important. Some of the archetypes offered in Psionics Unleashed allow for you to manifest armor and/or a shield. However, it doesn't really make up for the magic items that you would be missing.
Ascetic from Book of Exalted Deeds basically gives you a 20 level run at supplementing a non-item character but requires significant investments in both exalted goodness and major limitations (hold a luck stone? didn't know? too bad, you are no longer ascetic and never will be again. harsh!).
I thank you for the references.
I do like Dreamscarred Press work.
How do you feel the Ki Meister compares?
I will also note that dreamscarred press is releasing a Pathfinder version of Magic of Incarnum. Magic of Incarnum also talks about "chakra binds" and the like. Was this an inspiration for this class or are just drawing from the same real world mythology?
I was also going to reference the book of exulted deeds vow of poverty feat. That does a lot of the things this class does, actually.
I worry that it just might maybe be overpowered but in a way that is sort of hard to deal with. This character is going to end up with a huge pile of cash if there is no GM fiat.
Could this class get a cohort and throw all of his money at the cohort? Could this class get a flying broom? What does "benefit" mean exactly? Could he buy magic items for his adventuring buddies (making him sort of like an artificer in a way)?
Cash-money dollah-billz is more or less as powerful a resource as anything in this game. Vow of Poverty side-stepped this by forcing the adventurer to give his share of the cash to orphans.
Aside from that point, I don't think anything else about this class is broken exactly? I recently wrote a short dissertation on how one should avoid removing strength as a necessary state, but f@*& it. This is actually a casting class. It just casts punches.
There are some exploits to look out for though:
This class gets inherent bonuses AND enhancement bonuses to (likely) wis AND dex. You are gonna have a pretty serious dodge tank on your hands here by level 13 or 15. There is maybe an argument for putting something into con, but I think the d10 HD and favored class hit points are going to be more than enough considering how rarely you are going to expect to get hit. You could also always get Binding the Flesh as a continual effect.
Two-weapon-fighting is the bomb dot com for this class. They can only add their wisdom to an attack once no matter what so the optimal strategy is maximizing the number of attacks. That means two weapon fighting is best. There are also effects that take effect every time an enemy is hit (especially with scorpion claw abilities). That means two weapon fighting is best. I almost want to call it a feet tax. The only drawback I found was that you could not change your attacks to elemental damage? Is that right? Anyways: twf is essentially a feat tax in that it is just so far ahead of other possible builds.
Some parts where things could be more powerful:
I don't think there is a single ki power with a standard action activation besides the scorpion adept power that is really entirely worth using in combat so they are all just continual effect candidates. They are all so situational. Like: maybe I would use one of the buff powers if I knew a fight was coming, but otherwise I can't see forgoing an action in a fight for it. Do you want some of these abilities to be relegated to continual effects?
Anyways. This is really ambitious. I like that. It is just weird and weird makes balance hard to think about.
I will also note that dreamscarred press is releasing a Pathfinder version of Magic of Incarnum. Magic of Incarnum also talks about "chakra binds" and the like. Was this an inspiration for this class or are just drawing from the same real world mythology?
I was also going to reference the book of exulted deeds vow of poverty feat. That does a lot of the things this class does, actually.
I have never read Magic of Incarnum, this was taken from my time in Japan, similar to my champion of the Kami class. I shelved this back in mid-2013 and honestly have only just looked at it again.
I did want the same "My character is dedicated to self perfection" vibe VOP gave, but I wanted the option to be any alignment, as I could see someone being very very evil in their pursuit of Self Perfection.
I worry that it just might maybe be overpowered but in a way that is sort of hard to deal with. This character is going to end up with a huge pile of cash if there is no GM fiat.
Could this class get a cohort and throw all of his money at the cohort? Could this class get a flying broom? What does "benefit" mean exactly? Could he buy magic items for his adventuring buddies (making him sort of like an artificer in a way)?
Cash-money dollah-billz is more or less as powerful a resource as anything in this game. Vow of Poverty side-stepped this by forcing the adventurer to give his share of the cash to orphans.
I completely agree with you on Party WBL inflation being a potential problem. I will see if there is any verbage I can add.
A Ki Meister should be able to use consumables to heal HP and remove Status ailments and that is all for magic items. A broom of flying is right out.
Now a Meister can benefit from spells an ally casts or abilities an ally uses such as Fly or Inspire Courage, however while having no mechanical constraints on such they do have a fluff mentioned aversion for such.
Aside from that point, I don't think anything else about this class is broken exactly? I recently wrote a short dissertation on how one should avoid removing strength as a necessary state, but f+!~ it. This is actually a casting class. It just casts punches.
Basically this is a character who uses the energy of his/her soul to affect the physical world, correct.
There are some exploits to look out for though:
This class gets inherent bonuses AND enhancement bonuses to (likely) wis AND dex. You are gonna have a pretty serious dodge tank on your hands here by level 13 or 15. There is maybe an argument for putting something into con, but I think the d10 HD and favored class hit points are going to be more than enough considering how rarely you are going to expect to get hit. You could also always get Binding the Flesh as a continual effect.
I agree, however my math seems to show that Meister AC is slightly better than average while their DPR is slightly lower than average so it seems to all be a bit of a wash.
Two-weapon-fighting is the bomb dot com for this class. They can only add their wisdom to an attack once no matter what so the optimal strategy is maximizing the number of attacks. That means two weapon fighting is best. There are also effects that take effect every time an enemy is hit (especially with scorpion claw abilities). That means two weapon fighting is best. I almost want to call it a feet tax. The only drawback I found was that you could not change your attacks to elemental damage? Is that right? Anyways: twf is essentially a feat tax in that it is just so far ahead of other possible builds.
My math seems to show that levels 1-3 TWF > Non-TWF, and levels 4-8 Non-TWF > TWF. After that it is close for almost all of the levels.
TWF feats seem to average out to be about a 1.5 DPR gain per feat.
I feel that with Ki Variability it is ok for now, however I am completly willing to be convinced.
Some parts where things could be more powerful:
I don't think there is a single ki power with a standard action activation besides the scorpion adept power that is really entirely worth using in combat so they are all just continual effect candidates. They are all so situational. Like: maybe I would use one of the buff powers if I knew a fight was coming, but otherwise I can't see forgoing an action in a fight for it. Do you want some of these abilities to be relegated to continual effects?
I see what you mean. In all honesty I did intend most active: No powers to be bought down eventually, and most active: Yes powers to be bought down to a swift. I saw it as a mini-game where each build even with the same bindings might play differently due to how Chakra and Ki were spent.
Anyways. This is really ambitious. I like that. It is just weird and weird makes balance hard to think about.
I thank you very much for your feedback, and I appreciate the kind words.
If you have the inclination/time I would love to see your take on a Meister build.
P.S. There are three other "Sister" classes that go with the Meister, The Son of the Blade, The Shaper, and The Shugenja.
I must admit that I am incredulous as to this math.
I'll do a quick breakdown of expected values.
During a full attack: twf<non-twf implies
E(2(q-0.1)(N))<E(q(N))
Where N is the base damage of your attack (I abuse notation because I use N both for the variable damage and the expected damage here-after) and q is your usual chance of success. Notice that the left side has 0.1 subtracted from the likelihood of success (this is the -2).
Continued:
2qN-.2N<qN
qN<.2N
q<.2
So two weapon fighting is only worse on iterative attacks where your chance of success is less than 20% (i.e. you only succeed on a 17, 18, 19, or 20). This class's to hit is pretty good so I doubt that will come up much (and if it does then it will probably be on later iterative attacks). And this even ignores effects that go off once every attack. Is there some kind of angle with elemental attacks that I am omitting?
I must admit that I am incredulous as to this math.
I'll do a quick breakdown of expected values.
During a full attack: twf<non-twf implies
E(2(q-0.1)(N))<E(q(N))
Where N is the base damage of your attack (I abuse notation because I use N both for the variable damage and the expected damage here-after) and q is your usual chance of success. Notice that the left side has 0.1 subtracted from the likelihood of success (this is the -2).
Continued:
2qN-.2N<qN
qN<.2N
q<.2So two weapon fighting is only worse on iterative attacks where your chance of success is less than 20% (i.e. you only succeed on a 17, 18, 19, or 20). This class's to hit is pretty good so I doubt that will come up much (and if it does then it will probably be on later iterative attacks). And this even ignores effects that go off once every attack. Is there some kind of angle with elemental attacks that I am omitting?
My apologies I will clean up spreadsheets and post.
The main difference is that a non-TWF Meister receives -1/+3 from Power Attack and a TWF Meister receives -1/+2.
I will look at Venom of the World Serpent again as I can see a possibility of it being a problem due to its one round rather than one attack duration, however the earliest it can come online is level 13 which is why I did not have a problem with it.
My spreadsheet is finally collated.
Apologies for the delay,and for my earlier inaccurate claims. I had forgotten that the last version of the Ki Meister had a -1 to hit built into its TWF, which in this version I removed.
My DPR spreadsheet is Here.
First impressions of the class:
This strikes me as a monk-esque class, so it makes sense, at least in my mind, to compare its strengths and weaknesses to those of a monk. It makes sense that you would want the Ki Meister to have different strengths, and those strengths should be balanced out by appropriate weaknesses. (I will precede each strength with a '+' and weaknesses with a '-'. Ideally, they should balance eachother out)
From the flavorful introduction to KM's, it seems like it will focus on unarmed strikes, as opposed to manufactured weapons.
+++ So...first issue I see here is: 3 good saves and full BAB on a D10 hit die.
-Given that the monk gets 3 good saves, I suppose that isn't too problematic.
However, the monk also only gets 3/4 BAB progression and a D8 hit die.
-Unlike Monks, KM's have no proficiency with any weapons except unarmed strikes
+Ki Meister’s and TWF: The wording of this and the benefit are confusing. Still, from what I can gather, it applies 1 buff to both weapons when TWF, which is really powerful. It also seems like it might add too much complexity, given that it is supposed to alter how other abilities of the class work.
+Skill points: 6+int seems like a bit much
+? Alignment: They may be of any alignment, whereas monks are restricted to lawful. I am of two minds on this. I don't particularly agree with alignment restrictions, in general, but at the same time, this means that you are giving Ki Meisters the potential for even more versatility (and power) than the monk. I'm not quite sure how to classify this.
-Discipline of One: The restriction of buffs removing your ki pool is an interesting weakness. You may want to make it a bit more clear that the exception for non-permanent spells and items only extends to healing and status-restoration items, as the current wording is a bit confusing.
+Ki Pool at first level: Monks get this at fourth level, and they get more ki per level.
-Loss of your ki pool for wearing armor or wielding a manufactured weapon seems like a potentially fair means of balancing the extra ki (though I have not yet looked at what you can actually do with your ki)
* (+?)I'm not sure if ki pools from other classes are supposed to stack with each other or not, but if they do, then you don't need to say this, and if they don't, then this could become a problem.
++/- Ki Strike: I kind of like this. You add your wisdom to your damage and attack rolls, which is powerful, but only while you have ki. You also get decent unarmed strike damage, but it only goes up to a d6, regardless of size. This restriction would make the full BAB a little easier to swallow, were it not for the fact that, as key strike is worded, it seems like you could eschew strength altogether and focus exclusively on wisdom to increase your damage and chance to hit. I really think that you could probably just stick with the monk's 3/4 BAB and still have a fair chance to hit. This is, of course, assuming that Ki-strike works as long as you have ki in your pool, and does not actually cost ki to use.
Ki Variability: This seems to balance itself. The 15 minute meditation prevents you from abusing this mid-combat, so I don't see this as becoming a problem. The additional benefit seems to be worded a bit oddly, though. I get that it is supposed to make non-TWF builds seem more viable, but I would be careful with this, as it might have unexpected consequences.
Just some things to think about for the time being. I'll look at this more later.
EDIT: I'm curious about something. Would wearing a headband or a belt that increases the KM's ability scores remove his/her ki pool, or would they be considered acceptable?
In light of the fact that you don't seem to get something like the Monk's stunning fist or flurry of blows, the higher BAB and hit die seem a bit more reasonable.
My spreadsheet is finally collated.
Apologies for the delay,and for my earlier inaccurate claims. I had forgotten that the last version of the Ki Meister had a -1 to hit built into its TWF, which in this version I removed.
My DPR spreadsheet is Here.
Hey.
That is a lot of information, yo. Haha. I am not sure where I should be looking.
All I know is that the benefit/loss in terms of expected value of two attacks with a weapon at -2 and one attack with that same weapon is equal to (omitting corner solutions):
(q-.2)N
Where q is the chance of success without the -2 modifier (this is implicitly derived in my earlier post).
This benefit is mitigated because the "one weapon" option for most classes actually means you will be doing more damage with that one attack (because you will likely wield a weapon in two hands and wield a larger weapon).
So the real benefit/loss is:
2(q-.1)N1-qN2
Where N1<N2 (N2 being the expected damage of a two handed weapon in two hands and N1 being the damage with the one handed weapon in one hand; this equation assumes double slice)
In your case though, one hands or two hands does not matter right? It is x1 wis mod in damage no matter what, yeah? And in your version, I am pretty sure that the Kimeister doesn't need double slice.
How many attacks do you think this class will make that have below a 20% chance of success before a twf modifier?
And am I missing something? Can you gain an extra 3 damage from power attack with ki strike? (it seems silly to build around strength or w/e)
Caveat to my analysis: the one-weapon build catches up to the two-weapon fighting build in general as haste and similar effects become more common.
Some more observations:
I suppose that Perfection of Body and Perfection of Mind pretty much answer my question about ability score-increasing items. Kind of pointless to have them when you're already getting enhancement bonuses. They both seem very cost-effective, but you don't get nearly as many options in terms of magical items as another class would, so it shouldn't be a problem.
Chakra Bindings seem to be the KM's schtick, so they will need to be looked at closely.
I like that you can trade excess chakra points for ki, and being able to augment the action cost of bindings gives you tons of versatility. I think the cost for making a binding continuous is about right.
The fact that most bindings cost ki, unless made continuous, definitely justifies the large ki pool.
Chakra points are interesting, in that each one basically represents a binding you could take, an augmentation you could apply to one of your bindings, or 3 Ki Points.
Binding of War/Destruction: Solid choices for offense, but not too powerful.
Binding of Balance: Effectively, a ring of sustenance for 1 CP. This should help it keep up with parties where everyone has a ring.
Binding of Mercy: A reasonable heal for its cost.
Binding of the Zephyr: +2 to AC is powerful. Making it continuous is also quite strong, but reasonable.
Binding of Speed: As with Zephyr, this is basically giving you something that a monk of comparable level would have at the cost of a chakra point. I think it's a nice option to have.
Firm Step: It's a better spider climb. Useful, but not game-breaking. As it should be.
Binding of Man: Skill boosts. Neat.
Ascending Steps: This is basically Air Walk with a shorter duration. I think you could just say you gain the effect of Air Walk for 1 minute per KM level.
Binding of Thought: You're probably already using PoM for WIS, so I think it's mostly going to be used to act as a bonus to skill checks unless it was to stack with Perfection of Mind (which might be too powerful). Maybe useful for a multi-class build that has a use for INT or CHA?
Binding of the Flesh: Like Thought, but a bit more useful, in that you are more likely to find a use for any of physical ability score you have to choose from. DEX for AC and Reflex saves, Con for HP and Fort Saves, and STR for Damage and bonus to hit. I'm glad this doesn't stack with Perfection of Body, as that would be broken.
Sidestep: Evasion for 2CP is nice, but it costs a move action and only lasts 1 round. If you make it continuous, which, if I understand correctly, would cost 5CP, it's much more useful, but is costing you the equivalent of 9 Ki Points and keeps you from getting other useful abilities. Still pretty strong, but it makes it less of a no-brainer to take this. That said, I think making it a move action makes it a bit too weak when un-augmented. The cost to use it and make it permanent would still make it a solid choice, but not an overwhelming one.
Prescient Dodge: Like Sidestep, you're getting a class feature at the cost of some CP. As was the case with Sidestep, this isn't really something I could see people ever using as a move action to benefit from it for 1 round.
Weapon Bindings: Really expensive, but could be worth it, depending on what you expect to fight.
Binding of Resistance: A perfect replacement for a cloak of resistance. Well-priced, too. One thing to note: you already have 3 good saves, so this might progress a bit too quickly. Maybe bump down the scaling to +1 for every 4 levels?
Wings of Exaltation: Given that you get this at level 13, 40 feet is a little slow and I'm not entirely sure if you need this with an ability that can already give you air walk and the ability to increase your move speed. So, unless, you (as a player) intend to make it continuous, you've probably already had access something better for up to 8 levels. I like the option to reduce the cost by switching to winged flight, though.
Warrior's Spirit: An extra attack is really nice. Stacking with Haste is even better. At this point I assume you have a minimum of 30 KP (level 13 and +2 WIS modifier), so 4 KP seems about right.
Vorpal Ki: Seems...interesting. 10 CP total to maximize the potential of getting a crit is probably an appropriate investment. Might need to playtest with this, though (most of the adept stuff, really).
Gentle Movements: CP cost of 3 (probably 4 to make it a swift) for Improved Evasion is nice.
Second by Second: Eh. Like uncanny dodge, it's either amazing or underwhelming. You either tell the rogue/invisible opponent to suck it, or this doesn't do much. Not really too useful as a move action, either. One of the primary benefits of Uncanny Dodge is not being caught flat-footed, so not being able to use this in a surprise round is...painful.
Ki Armor: Much more powerful than the Monk's AC bonus earlier on without being tied to an ability score. Might be a little imbalanced, but depending on your opinion on the Monk class, it could just be better balanced against the better martial classes. Given how many class features you get that require you to still have Ki in your Ki Pool, it's pretty much a given that you aren't going to use up your last Ki point, except in a life-or-death scenario, so the drawback is...negligible.
Ki Block: It is at this point that I feel you are going a bit overboard with the AC bonuses. Just because you can't get a ring of protection doesn't mean you should get a free equivalent that upgrades itself. It just seems too efficient. Again, though, I suggest play-testing in case I'm wrong and this ends up being on-par with what a character who isn't as restricted in regards to their magic item usage would have at an equivalent level.
Steel Skin: ...See Ki Block.
If you keep all the AC bonuses...I don't think there's really any need to build DEX on this class, unless you just want to dodge ALL THE THINGS, which might be fun or frustrating, depending on the campaign.
Mastery of Flesh/Spirit: I think you might be over-compensating for the loss of useful magic items by giving this class too many raw stat increases.
Techniques: Am I to assume that these are basically archetypes, or are they even more options? I'm starting to feel like you're giving the player an overwhelming amount of choices for this class.
Hope this helps. It's a neat idea for the class. I just feel there's too much going on at once.
So...is work still going on with this, or...?
I'm just curious, since it's been kind of quiet on this thread.
So...is work still going on with this, or...?
I'm just curious, since it's been kind of quiet on this thread.
Sorry I had been transferred from Japan to Ireland recently and am working 12's on the night shift, so Have not done much but sleep and work for about a month.
I will get back to this soon but I am going to not have much time until tomorrow, which will be my first time off in about a month.
I will be back in the US next month so hopefully my schedule will settle down and I will have a more consistent response curve. My apologies.
Edit: Just got word from my boss that I am not needed today! Horray! This means a 4 day rather than 3 day off. Going to go to Dublin and shop in the Peterson store and then will get back to you tonight.
I do appreciate how helpful you have been with this and honestly I have had some thoughts this month just not the time.
Ah! No worries.
I hope you have fun in Ireland. I hear it's a beautiful country.