Eidolons and slam attacks

[Question]

Im confused by how these work.

An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

So, questions :

A biped form has 2 claws AND limbs (arms). Would you be able to take this evolution twice (once to replace claws, once to replace arms)? Also what is the point of replacing the 2d4 damage claws with a 1d8 slam, given that the claws still attack at full BAB with full str bonus?

The slam damage also scales weird, normally 2d6 scales to 3d6, not 2d8. Lets say you take the "improved natural attack feat" : http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/improved-natural-attack AND the improved damage evolution.

The evolution increases the damage from 1d8 to 2d6, then the feat increases it to 3d6 (rather than 2d8). What happens when the eidolon becomes large or huge then?

[Nefreet]

The damage progression for slams and the damage progression for Improved Natural Attack are different, as you point out.

Since Tuesday there have been four other threads concerning how damage dice increase as size categories go up. In each of them I've pointed out that the general rule is that damage dice double with every other size increase.

That's why the 1d8 going to 2d6 normally then becomes 2d8.

But, as shown in the CRB Equipment chapter, a weapon that goes from 1d8 to 2d6 then increases to 3d6.

So, if your Eidolon Slam only progresses via size increases, it will go from 1d8 to 2d6 to 2d8 to 4d6 to 4d8.

If your Eidolon takes Improved Natural Attack, it will instead go from 1d8 to 2d6 to 3d6 to 4d6 to 6d6.

This makes Improved Natural Attack a worthwhile investment for the Slam.

As to your other question, if your Eidolon has 2x Limbs (arms) evolutions, and the Claws evolution, your Slam could occupy one Limbs, and your Claws the other.

If you only have 1x Limbs (arms), and Claws, the Slam replaces those Claws.

[Question]

Okay im confused.

If i take both improved natural attack and the evolution, the slam attack should do 3d6 damage right? Since they both increase by one step.

The slam entry specifically says that it deals 2d6 damage if large. Does it then go from 2d6 - 3d6 (improved natural attack) -> 4d6 (improved damage)?

Also im guessing all natural attacks have crit multipliers of 20/x2?

[Nefreet]

The base damage for this Slam attack is 1d8.

Whether you grow to Large or take Improved Natural Attack, the next step in damage is 2d6.

If you simply grow to Huge without taking Improved Natural Attack, the damage becomes 2d8.

If you grow Large and take Improved Natural Attack, the damage becomes 3d6.

If you grow Huge and take Improved Natural Attack, the damage becomes 4d6.

Like I said, taking the feat is a worthwhile investment for the Slam attack.

[Question]

Yes but what happens if you take improved natural attack, improved damage AND grow large?

[Nefreet]

Ah. Is this what you're referring to?

PRD wrote:

Improved Damage (Ex): One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.

So, once again, it depends on whether you've taken the Improved Natural Attack feat or not, as that gives you a different damage progression.

I'ma use the abbreviations "INA" for Improved Natural Attack, and "ID" for Improved Damage:

Base: 1d8

INA: 2d6
ID: 2d6
Large: 2d6

^ all three of these will temporarily overlap, because both the Slam progression chart in the Bestiary and that of the INA feat go from 1d8 to 2d6.

ID+Large: 2d8
INA+Large: 3d6
INA+ID: 3d6

^ the first one here uses the Slam progression (1d8 => 2d6 => 2d8), while the other two use that of the INA feat (1d8 => 2d6 => 3d6).

INA+ID+Large: 4d6
ID+Huge: 4d6
INA+Huge: 4d6

^ here again we see that both the Slam progression (2d6 => 2d8 => 4d6) and the INA feat (2d6 => 3d6 => 4d6) overlap.

INA+ID+Huge: 6d6
INA+Gargantuan: 6d6
ID+Gargantuan: 4d8

^ by now we can see that although the damage dice double every other size increase, INA will have a higher damage progression half the time, and then will be equal again the other half of the time.

Without INA you go from 1d8 => 2d6 => 2d8 => 4d6 => 4d8 => 8d6 => 8d8 => 16d6
With INA you go from 1d8 => 2d6 => 3d6 => 4d6 => 6d6 => 8d6 => 12d6 => 16d6

Confusing? Sure. But it gets less confusing the more you play with it.

[lemeres]

Oh, also, you asked what is the point o replacing the claws with a slam? Simple enough: it means you only have a single natural attack. And that is an advantage in fact.

When you have only a single natural attack, there are special rules that kick in. The attack is always primary (assuming you don't mix it with a manufactured weapon of course), and it deals 1.5x STR and power attack damage. This means that, while it does not have as much potential damage as a set of claws, it has a higher average damage over a fight since you get your full force with just a standard action attack instead of a full attack. And with the eidolon's scaling strength bonuses and evos...that can get very painful. It is also more likely to just blow through DR

Now, this strategy still seems inferior to having multiple natural attacks after a while since eventually, you will only have a single attack while the party barbarian gets 2 or 3 with his two handed weapon. But eidolons and animal companions actually have a special ability that helps with that.

The multiattack ability at level 9 has a special clause for creatures with 1 or 2 natural attacks. Essentially, it grants them a single iterative (as in, an attack at BAB-5) with one of their natural attacks. So, for all intents and purposes, your single attack eidolon would be hitting much like a two handed weapon user. Sure, you never get iteratives past that....but those are the ones that aren't very likely to hit anyway. Admittedly, you aren't going to hit as hard as the 6 armed monstrosity a lot of people turn eidolons into...but you are keeping up pace with most martial characters, which is enough. This path is more for that that have better evos to go to that just the raw attack ones.

Another interesting advantage for a single natural attack is seen in a myth campaign. With mythic vital strike (assuming that eidolons can take mythic feats at all; I am not very familiar with the rules), you can completely remove the disadvantage of your lack of iteratives by basically simulating a fulls set of iteratives in a single standard action attack. So your one, powerful hit can be much better in that scenario.

[Question]

Arent there feats or attacks that grant them the ability to make 2 or more attacks while moving though?

[Nefreet]

Pounce.

[Question]

Yea but a biped eidolon cant get pounce? Also how is a eidolon supposed to bypass DR/silver and stuff like that? The evolutions only allow you to bypass magic and alignment.

[Nefreet]

Eldritch Claws is a nifty feat.

Also a +3 Amulet of Mighty Fists will help your attacks overcome DR silver and cold iron.

If you can ever afford to upgrade it to +4 you can also overcome DR adamantine (but not hardness).

Though that's a huge chunk of money, and probably not doable until after level 12.

[lemeres]

Question wrote:

Yea but a biped eidolon cant get pounce? Also how is a eidolon supposed to bypass DR/silver and stuff like that? The evolutions only allow you to bypass magic and alignment.

There is also the eldritch claws feat, which makes you count as magic and silver.

And I think there is the frost fist amulet, which turns your hands into solid lumps of cold iron with the frost property. Useful for a claw heavy eidolon, although be careful, since obviously the disadvantage of this item is that it turns your hands into lumps of iron (it literally says that they can manipulate things as well as you could by poking it with a stick). Overall, it is much cheaper than a +3 amulet of mighty fists, but its doesn't add to your attack rolls, and the cold damage can be resisted.

[Question]

Wow the amulet of mighty fists is really expensive though. Why is it so expensive? Its way more than just putting +1 on a weapon?

[Nefreet]

It's the equivalent price of two magic weapons.

So, if you have 3 or more natural attacks, it's actually a deal.

[lemeres]

Nefreet wrote:

It's the equivalent price of two magic weapons.

So, if you have 3 or more natural attacks, it's actually a deal.

Natural attack builds are based off of the same logic as TWF builds: lots of attacks to get a lot of static damage. Also, the amulet is used to enhance unarmed strikes, which are usually used in a TWF manner (flurry counts for this purpose).

So, since everything that uses it goes around like TWF, why not put the price of the only thing enhancing all of the attacks like it was a pair of TWF weapons?

This does actually bring up another advantage of slam though: you could go with the bodywraps of mighty strikes instead. With a price that is only 1.5x normal enhancement costs, this item can only enhance a number of attacks per round equal to your iteratives (so 1 attack for BAB +1-5, 2 attacks for BAB 6-10, 3 attacks for 11-15, and 4 attacks for BAB 16-20). This item would normally be rather useless, since most natural attack and unarmed strike builds rely on way more attacks per round that this weapon could enhance.

But if you are going with a one big hit build like with the slams, then you will be able ...well not fine, but adequately with the number of enhancements per round.