Alright, so the old Goodfellow thread got rather confusing and garbled with all the eiditions piled one atop the other. Here's a new one for the Feywarden, a fey-themed woodlands warrior type class that gets an evolution-havin' faerie beast animal companion and all manner of fey-inspired magical tricks and knacks and junk. Any and all comments fervently solicited:
I like the changes that you've been making.
I think I just see one or two typos/miscorrects.
You give the daily allotment of green points. Green touch uses one green point, but you still have the text saying it can be used a certain number of times per day. Doesn't the green point cost cover that?
Technically share spells doesn't help you cast druid only animal spells on your faerie beast. It allows you to share spells that affect you with the faerie beast (thus humanoid only spells can be cast on it), or cast "You" only spells on the faerie beast. I think you want to say that the faerie beast counts as an animal or fey for the Feywarden's spell tricks. I think that's how it works at least.
Thanks for pointing those two out. Yeah, greentouch definitely should just cost 1 green point to use. I'll fix that. I'll also clean up the faerie beast's share spells info to make sure it says it counts as an animal. Them were just misses; thanks for catching 'em.
EDIT: Wait...the second paragraph of the faerie beast entry starts: "Firstly, the faerie beast's type changes from animal to fey, though the feywarden may target his faerie beast with spelltricks as if though it was an animal." That's enough to clarify that, isn't it?
On the last page, Cheapy said that this class has too many "good" abilities but that is not clearly true to me. Nearly everything is keying of off of the same resource pool, including spells.
There is also no ability that gives bonuses to attack rolls (which is sort of like being a 5/6 martial character in pathfinder).
Elision and the faerie beast really are quite good, though. I think you might want to consider degrading the faerie beast's BAB back to 3/4 [Edit: whoooooooooops! I meant to say "back to 1/2"]. If you buy strength up each time it is available, the faerie beast's accuracy is effectively 3/4 BAB anyways. Giving it 3/4 BAB and access to evolutions, effectively gives it access to full BAB. Maybe this is too powerful? I will also note that since you can buy constitution with evolution points as well, the 1d6 hit die is not a very serious drawback.
I think you may have misunderstood the faerie beast's BAB situation, Excaliburproxy, which is hardly surprising considering it's been changed back and forth so much. It was never Full. It started out as 1/2, then changed to 3/4, which is how it is now. The AC should certainly not have full BAB. The Feywarden himself does have full BAB, though, but a d8 HD and weak Fort save will probably force him to invest more in Con than most full BAB characters.
Regarding power level I'm not sure I've necessarily lowered it very much. I didn't fully agree with Cheapy's claim that the class has too many good abilities: I can't think of a single mediocre class feature the Inquisitor has, for example. The Feywarden might have a higher power level in general among its abilities, but a lot of them are keyed to forests. If you'll look at this new version a lot of old fixed abilities have been chopped up and can now be selected as "Cunnings", a la Discoveries, Rogue Talents, etc.. This does mean the feywardens get fewer abilities for free, but they also have more choice in what abilities they can pick.
Especially the cunning system I'd like to hear people's views on, as that's the biggest new change.
Oh man, I made a typo (see edit).
I am saying that 3/4 BAB and +2 strength at levels 2, 6, 12, and 18, is really a lot like full BAB but maybe better as you have added to the damage of every attack as well. If you get +2 con at level 3, then that is like a 1d6 hit die being a 1d8 hit die. If you upgrade con again at level 10, then that is just a tank (with effectively a d10 hit die).
I meant to argue for downgrading back to 1/2.
...wait, what? Sorry, I feel thick now. I don't get what you're saying.
Currently the AC has d6 HD and 3/4 BAB. You think the BAB should go down to 1/2 so it matches the HD. So far I'm with you. I get how you could take the Ability Score increase evo to bump your hit points.
When/how/why is the AC getting +2 to STR at levels 2, 6, 12, 18?
I'm not averse to lowering the AC's BAB, actually. It was mostly having the Goodfellow himself at 3/4 that I was concerned over earlier.
BTW, here are three new cunnings I thought might be useful. They're sort of cribbed from some stuff various druid archetypes get, but I thought they suited the class' feel. I guess you'd get a lot of defenses if you picked all three of them, but that'd be quite a heavy investment so I'm thinking it might be balanced:
"Primal Soul (Ex): The feywarden gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against death effects, energy drain, and necromancy effects, and on stabilization checks when dying. A feywarden of 7th level or higher can select this cunning. He must already possess the fey awakening cunning to select it.
Fey-Tempered (Ex): The feywarden gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the extraordinary, spell-like and supernatural abilities of fey. A feywarden of 7th level or higher can select this cunning. He must already possess the wild lore cunning to select it.
Mistchild (Ex): The feywarden gains the ability to see through 10 feet of magical fog, mist, gas, wind, rain, or similar inclement weather conditions, ignoring any concealment it might grant. This cunning can be selected several times. Each time it is selected, the range of the feywarden's ability to penetrate inclement weather conditions improves by 5 feet."
What do people think? Too much?
Man, I just feel so sorry for that wolf. I guess the lesson is, never fall asleep around a Fey Warden.
They'll braid the bejeezus out of you!
Waaaaait. I missed a clause on the limitation of ability increases. Sorry. I was talking about taking the ability increase evolution. I was never talking about real full BAB. I was talking about having attack accuracy as large as creature with full BAB.
I will say that there may still be a problem with the AC picking up the large and huge increases. +16 to strength nets out to a +6 to accuracy if I am not mistaken (so the animal companion would have an attack bonus GREATER than a hypothetical animal companion with full BAB). And large nets out to +3, I think. So that is still a bit of a problem (as many medium sized animal companions will surpass hypothetical full BAB classes in attack accuracy).
On the cheapy front: I am pretty sure cheapy is wrong. Lots of classes have bad abilities because they have a lot of filler abilities--stuff that is in there to add a little flavor or prop up bad levels (*cough* bravery *cough*). It is wrong-headed to assume that every class needs a bad class feature here and there.
So yeah: I say lift the ability increase ban and reduce the BAB to 1/2. That or you can ban the size increase evolutions.
I suppose it doesn't really feel very feyish to grow to humungous size. They tend to be little frail things, after, all, the fey. I think I'll keep things as they are now and just ban the size increase evo. Seems like a fair balancer.
Which class(s) are you comparing this one to for balance purposes?
Paladin or inquisitor is probably the closes analogue, though it is rather a difficult class to pin down. By the by, I'm not dismissing your critique, Cheapy, and I did find it very valuable. I hope you'll note I've implemented some of your suggestions in this latest version. I am quite aware I have rather a tendency to veer towards the too powerful when designing class features, but as things stand now I don't feel like the feywarden is outclassing either of those two classes. I do, however, defer to your greater grasp of balance, and if I'm off I'd be very glad if you could break it down for me.
Yeah, but I was talking about what most creatures with the fey type are like in PF, not the greater scope of RL folklore that influenced the creature type. Most, though not all, fey tend to be Medium-sized or smaller. Or is there like some lore bit about trolls and such originating in the First World? I honestly mostly go by the bestiaries. This isn't like a Golarion-specific class or whatever.
I'm not sure I get why the restriction on the size evolution is meaningless. There are plenty of ACs who never grow beyond medium size. Without the restriction there'd be nothing stopping them from taking the large evolution when the feywarden reaches level 8. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something?
Aww, it ate my post.
OK, I haven't read the new version yet (post my comments), but after reading some of these comments, I think you guys may have been right about me missing the mark a bit w.r.t. mediocre class features. I was sleepy, and since I was asked to comment, I wanted to make sure I wrote my comments before going to bed. I do appreciate my concerns being taken seriously (but the whole praise thing is always weird, no matter who does it :)).
Basing it off the Paladin / Inquisitor makes sense for what I'm seeing in the class, because you guys are right: they only have a few non-great class abilities. (Which is why I think the Paladin is a tad too strong, but that's a different topic.)
I still feel that the abilities are a bit too good. There's something to be said about being the master of your element, but the level at which these guys are the masters in forests is a bit...high? I guess forests aren't too common, but at the same time, it kind of suffers from the problem that the Undine bard archetype has: people wouldn't be taking it unless the forest / water plays a large role in the campaign. Too many good abilities are tied up into it. Something to consider.
The evolution points still make me uneasy. Especially since it's going to be used to grab pounce for animal companions that don't have pounce (and probably shouldn't have pounce!).
One idea, and here's that constructive feedback finally coming in, is to instead of give evolution points, give packages of evolutions at X,Y,Z,A, and B levels. These packages could be based on the fey that the feywarden most identifies with. That way you could balance your own fey-packages (the F.Beast of the feywarden who identifies with a brownie would get evolutions J,K, and L.). You could then tie other abilities into that fey package, as a sort of bloodline.
Thanks for getting back to me, Cheapy. I appreciate the commentary. I'd be really happy to hear what you think after you've read the updated version, because I think the new cunning system really tones down the plethora of supercharged forest abilities a bit. At least now if you want to be Mr. Forest Master, you're going to have to sacrifice some other magicky tricks to get there. I'm not sure if it goes far enough for your tastes or not, but I'd be interested to hear your verdict on that score.
I get that the evo. points are a huge power boost. We're making no bones about that; this is why I've restricted a few evolutions you your AC cannot quite balloon up into a combat monstrosity quite at the same pace an eidolon can. I do like your idea of evolution packages in a way, though it might be a bit too much work for the results it'll reap. This is how I think about the evolutions:
These guys get pseudo-spellcasting which, at the end of the day, is probably weaker than even what a ranger gets. Sure, the feywarden can choose his tricks more freely, but his casting is very limited if he wishes to go beyond 1st-level spells. Possibly he is on par with a ranger/paladin, casting wise, but in a different way. They have full BAB, and good Combat Style feats, and their cunnings give them sp- and su-abilities that I'd arguably say are equal to those of a bard/inquisitor/paladin. That at least is my goal. Now I also include the animal companion in what brings them up to that level.
In a way, I'd probably like pushing the AC back down to 1/2 BAB rather than restrict its evolutions. I know the evo packages (like the masks of the masquerade reveler from Convergent Paths) would add a bit of compartmentalization and flavor, but at the same time I'd rather like this class to get to have the fun of creatively altering an AC via evolutions. I would probably rather reduce the size of their evo pool (which is 16 at level 20) than further reduce their available options. I do realize the danger of doling out pounce, reach and stuff like that, but I'm not convinced if that is reason enough to curtail the evolution part of the class feature. I am not a hundred percent sure I disagree, but I am uncertain.
I think, basically, as long as the faerie beast isn't actually as powerful as a full-blown eidolon, I'm fine if someone grabs pounce for their AC early. Otherwise...I guess I could just ban pounce? I don't really like it as a special ability to give to PCs of any sort any way, but that's more of a personal thing. I mean, how many other probelmatic evolutions are there really out there?
Sorry to ramble on. I suppose my vision for this class is rather hard to put into words sometimes. I'd appreciate any input or commentary.
I think cheapy might have a point with the "package" idea. You have already banned or neutered two other (very common) evolutions for balance issues.
I think giving themed and finite lists of options might be the way to go. I think "elemental", "shadow", "giant" and "battle" might be three low hanging fruit.
"Elemental" would have breath weapons and elemental damage to attacks and maybe extra attacks.
"Shadow" would get those shadow-y powers and spell effects.
"Giant" would be the only way to get the "large" and "huge" size increases (and would otherwise have access to mediocre abilities)
And "battle" would just get limited strength and con buffs (once before level 10 and once after level 10) and little else.
That is my two cents. I understand wanting to keep options open (and not wanting to come up with lists), but it seems like a reasonably elegant solution to me.
Yeah, it is tempting, I will admit, and I should thank Cheapy for a very neat and elegant solution. I might get down to it later. There's just also the issue of much time to devote to fiddling about with a single homebrew class. Though I am elated so many people have found it interesting enough to warrant their attention and commentary.
If I do do the packages, should I keep the evo pool at its current level and just let people chooses evos from whatever package they pick for their faerie beast, or should the packages come pre-built, so, like, you just get these evos at this and that level? The former would entail larger packages (in terms of evos per package), the latter smaller, obviously.
Because the size increasing evolutions are essentially the best combat evolutions I think you need to ban them entirely or allow them on any companion.
But I suppose all that does is make certain animal companions better than others, which is already the case.
Oh, I see. Well, as things stand now the faerie beast is just barred from selecting the large evolution, period. I haven't made an updated version of the PDF to post, yet. We'll see if I won't go ahead with Cheapy's evo package idea; in that case this won't even be an issue.
I'm terribly sorry, LazarX. I really don't understand what you're trying to say. Like I said, the PDF linked at the top of this thread is not the current latest version. That one just states that a faerie beast cannot select the large evolution, period. Nothing about its natural size or anything like that. That's all been cut. And, as I said, that might not even matter if I go ahead with Cheapy's proposal. If I do that there won't probably even be freely selectable evolutions.
Faerie Beast
My first recommendation is to create your own table for this class feature. You have too many changes from the standard table not to. I am envisioning something between the animal companion and familiar tables. The flat +2 to Cha and Int is kind of boring, so have Int start low and gradually increase, and Cha increase similarly to Str/Dex.
Greenpool.
1) How did you choose 2 + level + Cha?
2) The ability heals 1d6 per two class levels. What happens at 1st level? Is it a (minimum 1d6) ability, or is it 1d6 plus 1d6 per two additional levels?
3) Why did you choose confused? In my view of "fey-like" abilities, something in the realm of charmed or fascinated would work better. Confused has better potential in combat though.
Wild Hunt Combat Styles
This may be quibbling over a minor detail, but given that metal armor is banned, it makes sense to me that a feywarden would be against the mechanical nature of crossbows as well.
I found a neat piece of art (A Gnome Ranger) that could potentially be used in place of the elf.
here.
Regarding Cheapy's 'packages' idea, can we perhaps cut back on the number of evolution points while adding abilities? I like for there to be at least some customization for the pet.
I like Ciaran's suggestions regarding the Faerie Beast. The Wild Hunt Combat Style should be either reduced or separated. Speaking of which, it might be cool to have a new combat style based around the 'beastmaster' gameplay style with teamwork feats and melee combat.
Thanks for the comments, Ciaran.
1) I chose it because I did a similar homebrew class earlier that got 4 + level x2 + Mental Stat spell points. That class was far more casting-centered than the Feywarden, so I'm trying out cutting that amount in half. I'll have to playtest it to make sure it's a reasonable amount to cover both spellcasting and other class features. I think it's within the right range, but we'll see, I suppose
2) That's just an error. Thank you very much for pointing that out. It should be 1d6 at 1st level and an additional d6 every uneven level thereafter. Pardon the sloppy phrasing. Mind runs ahead of the keyboard betimes.
3) I chose confused because I wanted something analogus to how paladins can harm undead with their LoH; I.e., I wanted something combat-effective. I just associate mental befuddlement with fey, alongside charms and fascinations. Like how Fey-blooded bloodragers can make people confused on a critical hit. It might not be a thematic bull's eye, but I don't think a fey-powered character confusing people feels that off.
Combat Style: That's an excellent observation. They do have enough combat style feats as is, so I'll definitely axe the ones that work specifically with crossbows. Thanks for the catch.
EDIT: Oh, sorry. Forgot to address the companion bit. Yeah, I think drawing up my own table is a good idea. I'll get on that. I suppose I might let Cha and Int go up in place of Str/Dex, but that leaves me wondering how these critters will work in combat. Hrm. I'll have to mull over how that might interact with Cheapy's evo packages.
@Arwyne: While I do like that picture, this really isn't some sort of gnome class, and I'm quite happy with my leaf-covered elf. The idea is that a feywarden can be of any race; he's just someone who for one reason or another has sworn himself to the fey and works within their spirit and ethos (using the latter term loosely). What do you mean by cutting back on evo points while adding abilities, BTW? I'm not sure I take your meaning.
Maybe give the Faerie Beast more evolution points based on the Feywarden's Charisma. The flavor could be something about how people with more force of personality attract more powerful fey. Anything above 20 wouldn't give any extra EP, though.
This would be an easy way to make people choose between whether they want to be more combat-centered or give more power to the Faerie Beast.
About the abilities comment: It seemed like Cheapy was suggesting that evolutions be chosen -for- the Feywarden, and I don't want to give up that sort of customization.
EDIT: I just saw the class update. Wild lore should almost certainly be given at 1st level.
Doesn't the starting 1 BAB make it too easily multiclassible?
@Spastic Puma: Possibly. Although making sure the class isn't too god as a dip isn't my top priority right now. I might look into it later.
@Arwyne: Maybe give them wild lore at 1st level and convert wild empathy into a cunning?
Working on a faerie beast table right now. Yeah, no, I don't want the class to give up versatility either. I'm still looking to see if I can make the package system work out. Will post an update when that's been tried out.
@Ethereal: Don't Druids get a bonus to Kno(Nature)? I don't see why Feywardens can't have a similar bonus. It's not like the average adventurer will need to intimidate a Faerie that often.
I'm not sure what you're saying? What are you suggesting they get at 1st level? Wild lore or a + to Kno (Nature)?
Oblivion arrow is interesting. I like that it gives an option for a bow-wielder in combat that isn't just damage-damage-damage.
Cheers. Yeah, I like the bow tricks I've come up with. Not sure how balanced they are yet, but I think they have thematic and strategic potential.
I'm saying they should get Wild Lore as-is at 1st level. Actually, Wild Empathy would make sense as a Cunning. Let's go with just switching them.
Good. That's what I thought. Thy will be done and all that. Consider it on the books.
Since I'm the first Feywarden ever made, can I be the stock character?
Or shall I make a character sheet for Elfy McElf and the Braided Bunch(of fur)?
That's up to you. I'd just rather keep my iconic for the time being. I'd love to see your char stated up; though it feels like the class is still being completely solidified. No offense; just not a big fan of anime-style art. Please don't stone me.
Sorry to double-post. Here's a table for the faerie beasts:
Having compiled that, I'm still trying to decide whether to just keep my evo pool = beastie HD or if I'll be charging ahead with some version of Cheapy's package idea. Might take me some time to complete the latter, is all.
EDIT: Sorry. Some info was missing in the table. All updated now. Still not sure about the package thing though.
EDIT II: So because the faerie beasts now don't get an automatic Str bump as they level, I took away the restrictions on the Ability Increase evo. Furthermore, they now get 13 instead of 16 evo points at level 20: this gives them precisely 1/2 what an eidolon has. I don't think I'll be writing up any evo packages, neat though that concept was. If someone else wants to have a crack at it, whether to combine it with an evo pool or replace it, be my guest, but I for one think I'll try out the class as is, unless any further flagrant errors or missteps are uncovered.
Don't worry, I won't kill you over what art you like. XD
The package system could also be a "pick from this list" thing, or have the packages and the combat style for extra evolution...course, I feel that there's plenty of customization for this class as is. You got bonus feats, spells, magic powers, an animal companion...
Well, it's late in my time zone and I've a busy weekend planned; maybe that's why I feel such a rush to close the book on this. I might revisit the package concept at the beginning of next week or something; maybe it'll come to me. Thanks for all the help and such for now.
Post the new Feywarden and we'll consider it 'Complete, will be revisited'. Good with you?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sounds good.
There we go.
EDIT: Dang it. Forgot to change the wording on greentouch and remove the crossbow stuff from combat style. Now the link leads to the corrected document with that stuff fixed.
Faerie Beast table
I would move Fey up to the top, and list everything that creature type entails, instead of referring to it. You can also use this area as an overview, to help a player get a feel for what the faerie beast is.
Hmm, how do you mean, exactly? I mean, the FB doesn't get all the features and traits of fey (they don't have 1/2 BAB, for instance).
EDIT: Well, I have to rush off but I've changed it so the top of the doc, right under the table itself, starts out with this:
"Fey
Despite using the base statistics for one of the animal companion choices available to a druid, the faerie beast is not an animal. Its type changes from animal to fey. As a fey, it gains low-light vision, and counts the following skills as class skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, and Use Magic Device. It also gains the ability to speak Sylvan. Because fey are intelligent creatures, rather than using the standard Intelligence score for the type of animal it is based on, a faerie beast begins play with an Intelligence score of 6. Faerie beasts have features different from other fey: it's HD, BAB, Saving Throws, etc. all follow Table: Faerie beasts."
Hope that helps.
You're right about the BAB. Looks good.
Are fey actually known for modifying base animals? They used them (fey riding corgis), for sure.
Not that I know of. I assume for this class it is based on an animal familiar changing types. I supposed you could call it a magical beast instead.