Im starting to realize that the upper level PFS scenarios can be very deadly. Poorly made characters, while welcome at tables, aren't always appreciated by your fellow players who have to carry you. So, while I know any character that is well played, is fine at the lower end of the spectrum I was curious about the upper end. Namely the 7-11 scenarios.
I have an idea for a Healing Sword and Board Paladin, most likely Hospitaler. I was curious if anyone had any experiance with this kind of character past level 7. How did it go?
The idea was to have very high AC and saves. He could be on the front line flanking or protecting the squishes. Selective channeling would allow for him to heal in combat or use LoH.
How would you feel about this type of character at your table?
EDIT: punctuation
The tanking and healing would be a definite positive. My only concern would be how much damage it could do. If you're giving up smite and using sword and board style, are you being effective offensively?
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The tanking and healing would be a definite positive. My only concern would be how much damage it could do. If you're giving up smite and using sword and board style, are you being effective offensively?
Hospitaler can still smite, just not as often. If they really wanted to they can take channel smite to use the extra channels offensively if needed to make up the loss.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Even attacking one-handed, you're only down a few points of damage per hit compared to a two-hander. Assuming, say, 22 STR at 8th level and Power Attacking with a greatsword or longsword, you're looking at 2d6+18 versus 1d8+12 before weapon enhancements and such. It's a difference, yes, but it's not like he's poking with a rapier for 1d6+2 or something. He's still knocking a couple of HD off the opponent with each hit; nothing to sneeze at. Perfectly acceptable backup melee damage.
Hmm. Hospitler with channel smite. Sounds nifty. I might try one of those.
And with Jiggy's point about damage, I don't think I or (more helpfully) any of your future table mates would have a concern. :)
And with Jiggy's point about damage, I don't think any of your I or (more helpfully) any of your future table mates would have a concern. :)
Jiggy was assuming a fair investment into STR. For the initial build i was thinking of a stat buy of 14,12,14,8,10,16. So at level 8, at best he would have a 16 STR assuming he put the money into the belt for STR and not CON. Sadly I was thinking his damage would be 1d8+2 before any buffs. As a Hospitler I would still have smite, 1 use a day until level 7. Assuming the target area of worry is my character around level 8 I can count on having two smites. One for the "boss" and one for anytime the situation looks like it could get out of hand. Any time I smite I would have very acceptable damage, the rest of the time I would be running interference for the casters/squishes and healing.
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Any character with healing magic I have found to be welcome at any table you could think of in PFS. Even an all cleric table welcomes a healer. Now, that said, I'd probably avoid Hospitaler, since you will only ever get 2-3 smites a day in PFS with it, unless you pull off some shenanigans. It still will be a higher-level tank with healing capabilities, and immunities to a lot of anti-tank magic [dominate, confusion, etc.], so I doubt anyone would turn you down if you were well-built.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy was assuming a fair investment into STR. For the initial build i was thinking of a stat buy of 14,12,14,8,10,16.
That's your point buy, but where are your racial bonuses going? A popular race for paladins is the angel-blooded aasimar, who gets +2 STR/CHA. You could also go human for +2 STR, or even dual-talented human for +2 STR/CHA or the otherwise unattainable +2 STR/CON. Or you could go half-orc, take +2 STR, get the sacred tattoo alternate racial trait along with the Fate's Favored trait for +2 to all saves. Do that, and you probably don't even need the 16 CHA to start (or could start there and put minimal investment in it).
Add in Power Attack and divine favor and you can still have way more than +2 damage.
Im starting to realize that the upper level PFS scenarios can be very deadly. Poorly made characters, while welcome at tables, aren't always appreciated by your fellow players who have to carry you. So, while I know any character that is well played, is fine at the lower end of the spectrum I was curious about the upper end. Namely the 7-11 scenarios.
Though I'll be going on a tangent, my advice to you is not to worry so much about 7-11. Having played multiple "poorly-made" characters all the way through 10-11, I can say that, overall, the jump to 8-9 is actually a larger jump in difficulty than the jump to 10-11. My toughest experiences have actually been at 8-9.
-Matt
That's your point buy, but where are your racial bonuses going?
Going with the story I have for him, he needs to be Tiefling. Luckily with Variant Heritages available i am looking to go Shackleborn or Pitborn. With the focus on healing I was thinking of going Shackleborn and using Shield Other as the primary way for him to heal.
Im starting to realize that the upper level PFS scenarios can be very deadly. Poorly made characters, while welcome at tables, aren't always appreciated by your fellow players who have to carry you. So, while I know any character that is well played, is fine at the lower end of the spectrum I was curious about the upper end. Namely the 7-11 scenarios.
I have an idea for a Healing Sword and Board Paladin, most likely Hospitaler. I was curious if anyone had any experiance with this kind of character past level 7. How did it go?
The idea was to have very high AC and saves. He could be on the front line flanking or protecting the squishes. Selective channeling would allow for him to heal in combat or use LoH.
How would you feel about this type of character at your table?
EDIT: punctuation
I play a level 11 Paladin / 1 Oracle in PFS, Hospitaler would be fine, as long as you don't ignore that you are meant to be up front in the mix. What I mean by that is you are there to take hits and do damage. Do not neglect that. PitBorn Tiefling is the strongest healer, as they can use FC bonuses to load up on self heals. I'd recommend Human if Tiefling isn't your cup of tea, taking Fey Foundling and the feat that adds CHA to Initiative. I do recommend that you consider 1 Oracle to up your defenses with side step secret or something along those lines. You only really need Smite for the bosses, so losing a number of them isn't crippling. Try to have a min. of 16 str and 14-16 cha. Everything else is gravy. Don't worry about CON (I have a 12 and nothing puts me down) if you have fey foundling and a high cha, you can out heal anything.
PitBorn Tiefling is the strongest healer, as they can use FC bonuses to load up on self heals.
Cant all Tiefling access that FC bonus?
I do recommend that you consider 1 Oracle to up your defenses with side step secret or something along those lines.
Not sure what I would gain from this, I plan to wear fullplate so I would still be limited to +1 bonus.
Try to have a min. of 16 str and 14-16 cha. Everything else is gravy. Don't worry about CON (I have a 12 and nothing puts me down) if you have fey foundling and a high cha, you can out heal anything.
I would also be funneling damage from the main front line to myself with shield other. So I think the hp's would be nice. Also the loss of the bonus of +1 with the decrease from 16 to 14 STR Wouldnt seem to break anything.
EDIT: Seem to be getting off track. I was more asking if anyone had experience with a Hospitlier being the primary healer in a group. And how receptive that would be in the higher level or deadlier PFS scenarios. Good example of this would be BoneKeep.
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Seem to be getting off track. I was more asking if anyone had experience with a Hospitlier being the primary healer in a group. And how receptive that would be in the higher level or deadlier PFS scenarios. Good example of this would be BoneKeep.
I'm used to having my high-UMD Bloodrager being the primary healer. He can only use wands, and even then only 50% of the time. I'm pretty sure anything with LoH+Channel+Free Cure Wand Usage will be just fine as a primary healer.
Cant all Tiefling access that FC bonus?
They get +2 str and +2 cha, which is the best for Paladins for tieflings. Also tieflings get armor of the pit (+2 nat ac) as a feat option.
Not sure what I would gain from this, I plan to wear fullplate so I would still be limited to +1 bonus.
You'd get cha to reflex (or CMD) and cha to AC in place of dex (cha replaces dex). I can't recommend full plate as the 20 movement is really harsh on a class that wants to be intercepting baddies. Mithral BP + Oracle nets you better AC and movement for much less cash investment.
I would also be funneling damage from the main front line to myself with shield other. So I think the hp's would be nice. Also the loss of the bonus of +1 with the decrease from 16 to 14 STR Wouldnt seem to break anything.
I noticed a difference with starting with a 16 str for my front liner. Remember, you're not "just" a healer. You are a Paladin and are meant to be beating on things in addition to healing. Also you get spells much later than a full healer, same with Channel.
As for how the Hospitaler would be at higher level depends on if you are a 1 trick pony, or are versatile. Only being a healer will be less welcome than being able to be a meat shield, hit stuff and heal just as effectively. While the Paladin can heal really well, it's not as versatile in the sitting in the back role as an Oracle or Cleric. I'd play to the classes strengths. The Paladin is an incredible class that can do multiple things simultaneously, while being nigh unkillable.
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Actually, yes. I have a good deal of experience with a Hospitaler as the primary healer in a high-level group. They can be quite effective. The combination of channel and LoH (both Su abilities) along with armor and shield makes the Hospitaler uniquely suited to get up in the face of a BBEG while still providing healing.
When I played Eyes of the Ten the Paladin was both our highest AC "tank" and the primary healer. I was playing a cleric - but it was a negative channeling evangelist of Asmodeus (specializing in enchantment spells of course) so I had to memorize any healing spells I wanted to use. Here's some advice based on that experience. Just my ides of course.
IF you want to do this you have to accept that you can be a good healer and a damage soak, but you're not going to be a melee monster as well. You can heal and you can take hits, but trying to dish out a reasonable amount of damage as well is stretching yourself a bit far.
You are going to have to make some investments that a cleric might not have to. At 10-11 any cleric or oracle will be packing breath of life. You'll need some first aid gloves. (Anyone can use them but if you really are trying to "take the place of a healer" you will need them.) Quick channel is almost a must because your channel dice are going to be behind and you can't spontaneously cast heal spells. Bracers of the Merciful Knight are good as well. If you're a generous sort (and I think you are since you are playing this character) you may want to think about a high UMD score and buying scrolls of useful cleric spells.
I *don't* recommend taking feats like channel smite. The phylactery of positive channeling is a tossup, and comes down to personal preference. In my eyes the extra uses of both channel and LoH you get from a charisma headband are usually a better investment, not even including saving throws. Some people prefer the higher die total and the chance to get Channeled Revival at 11th level.
Your limited smites have one (awesome) use - adding your Charisma bonus to AC while standing up in the big guy's face.
stuff
Thanks, This is what I was looking for.
EDIT: Seem to be getting off track. I was more asking if anyone had experience with a Hospitlier being the primary healer in a group. And how receptive that would be in the higher level or deadlier PFS scenarios. Good example of this would be BoneKeep.
I'm playing through Eyes of the Ten right now with my Hospitaler currently, so I'll chime in as well.
-A few levels of Life Oracle have kept my entire party standing long past when they should have. Life Link is a godsend.
-I channeled for the first time ever yesterday. I almost always shove all of my channels into Meditation Crystals in order to supply more Lay on Hands.
-Speaking of... buy Meditation Crystals.
-I purposefully keep my AC low. Partially for reasons that Belafon listed. I don't do as much damage as everyone else at the table. Many of the people I play with wind up with ACs in the high 30s or low 40s. I think my AC, without the druid forcefully buffing me, is a 25. I want to get hit, then they aren't getting hit.
-Fey Foundling is also pretty much required. I wasn't sure about this one at first, but it's completely true.
One of the players at the table last night said that he always feels better knowing Birgir's going to be there. He's like a safety blanket. His character's Binky.
Hopefully some of that helps.
More good stuff
I would like to know more about Birgir. How you built him and why.
I made a lot of decisions on Birgir solely for story's sake that make the optimizers at the FLGS cringe. Among other things I did that they hate was retrain out of Hellknight and into Holy Vindicator entirely for story reasons (he's becoming disillusioned with Cheliax in general and Zarta Dralneen in specific).
I started out as a Paladin of the Godclaw and stuck with that for my second level.
Level 3 and 4 were Legalistic Oracle of Life for Life Link.
5 and 6 were Paladin again.
7 Oracle 3 for Channel.
8-10 were Hellknight for Story reasons.
11 and 12 were Paladin again.
Also at 12, I retrained into HV from Hellknight.
Now he's saving up prestige to leave Cheliax for Silver Crusade (36 PP).
Feats: I had Power Attack then the Step Up line. There were probably better choices, but the point of the PC was to be in the enemies face and hard to ignore. Oh, and of course I started with Fey Foundling
At this point he also has Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy to raise the dead. This came in fantastically useful for Ruby Phoenix Tournament.
Equipment: Bracers of the Merciful Knight (to keep my LoH somewhat in line)
Falchion (shields increase AC, which is bad)
Boots of Speed (to get where you're needed and to be a bit more of a threat)
If I were aiming more for mechanics than the character... I'd probably have taken one more level in Oracle and two more in Paladin. 2P/2O/2P/2O/4P.
Dealing damage was never really my intent, but I always had to seem like at least a bit of a threat.
I made a lot of decisions on Birgir solely for story's sake that make the optimizers at the FLGS cringe.
I can understand that. I use to think my characters were optimized until I went to my first convention. I think everyones else character would put mine to shame in combat. Now I just think they are effective.
Birgir sounds alot like the character I am developing. Even down to the Levels in Holy Vindicator. I was not going to dip Oracle because I didn't want to lose effectiveness of my LoH, and it wasn't really in his story line, but that could be altered easily as Life Oracles are easy to work in. The dip in HV would have been 1 level certainly. I was undecided of how far to go in HV. The stigmata sounded really cool but not sure how it would play out. I would not get my first level of HV until 7 due to the feat requirement. At that point, I would know if I wanted to go more into the PrC.
My Questions:
Was Oracle worth it? The main benefit to this I see is Life Link. Which is awesome. But, you would need several levels to make it useful. All these levels would be hurting your LoH.
The link on Birgir says he is Duel-Cursed. Is there a reason for that? What is his other curse?
I understand you want to be the one attacked, nothing says bad guys wont attack you with a shield. Also for minimal investment in AC you can get some nice returns with Vindicator's Shield.
Dealing damage was never really my intent, but I always had to seem like at least a bit of a threat.
This would be my biggest worry. For the most part I would use positioning to be the most likely target. And for the really bad guys, I was hoping Smite would allow me to do enough damage that no BBEG could ignore me.
Like I said, I took 3 levels of Oracle and probably would have been better served with 4. 4 Life Links keeps everyone standing and, more importantly, expedites post-combat healing.
Keep in mind, with Fey Foundling every ounce of healing used on you instead of your companions is more efficient. 6d6 (+12) healing on you is generally a better use of your time than 2d6 or 3d6 on everyone. Also, mid-combat that's a swift action. That means you're not actually detracting from your combat usefulness by spending a standard on healing.