I am uncertain as to whether this is the correct subforum for this, but I've been working on a sheet to define true RP of various races using a more universal format.
Instead of going case-by-case and allowing potential imbalances to arise, I've been calculating the actual shifts in power from selecting a given attribute. The method which this was accomplished was through cross-comparison of various similar effects found via various sources.
That was something of a mouthful. To put it simply, I compared similar stat boosts, gauged which are most likely to be correct, then compared to similar effects to find any oddities in racial power calculations.
The current sheet can be found here.
Currently, all general discrepancies are listed in the lower right of the first sheet. Later sheets will be audits of races, to which this thread will be updated with suggested fixes (if any).
This thread was mostly to get more minds to work on this normalization effort, along with discussion over the relative balance of racial powers. To start it off, I am currently torn on the calculation for a +4 racial bonus to 1 skill with no limitations (for example, +4 bluff versus +4 bluff only to lie). These are three of the primary examples I used:
Goblin (+4 ride/+4 stealth, 6 RP)
Hobgoblin (+4 stealth, 5 RP)
Tengu (+4 linguistics, 2 RP)
I concluded it is probably 3, since the majority sided on the lower end after dividing the goblin racial trait into its parts.
The goblin one is probably slightly discounted, since it is very difficult to use both ride and stealth at the same time.
Don't forget to make small size actually cost something. At least say, 1 point. And xenophobic language should be -1 considering that it costs the same that standard does, and standard gives 3 more languages.
EDIT: My mistake, I though you were re-adjusting the RP costs of the abilities for a home game, but my suggestion does not follow your method.
The goblin one is probably slightly discounted, since it is very difficult to use both ride and stealth at the same time.
While I would normally agree, skill costs are decided purely by the parts which make the whole. This is shown through most weapon training, skill-based racial boosts, and spell-likes. It could be +4 to craft[basketweaving] and profession[dance] and the RP cost would still be the same.
With that said, do you believe +4 racial to one skill should be worth:
1) 3 (no alteration to goblin),
2) 4 (additively scaled to be two +2's to a single skill),
3) or 5 (4 plus an additional one for because +4 to one is usually worth more than +2 to two)
I can see an argument for each and would like additional input. The third alteration, while most believable based on how natural armor or spells are calculated, would increase the cost of goblin's Sneaky from 6 to 10, and the Tengu's Linguistics bonus from 2 to 5-6 (dependent on how double languages is measured)
* * *
As promised, I've performed an audit of all kobold racial traits and this is the summary of my findings:
1) The current base kobold RP is 7, not 5.
2) Crafty is worth 7 RP due to the addition of the +2 to perception checks that was added at some point, up from 5.
3) Almost every alternative racial trait for kobolds which replaces the Armor or Crafty traits is an overall reduction in RP. It is extreme enough to the point that kobolds using certain alternates reduce their RP to as low as 2, from 7.
4) Kobold's current language set is Xenophobic, which is not allowed as there is no "Kobold" language (a pre-requisite for having Xenophobic). This means kobolds should begin with an additional 3 languages to choose from.
Recommended alterations:
1) Separate one or more of the skill boosts from Crafty.
Reason: A majority of the alternate racial traits are lower value than the current Crafty, and as such a kobold will remain at a consistent RP if less was replaced when these alternatives are selected. It is not recommended to separate the Perception boost from Crafty currently, as it would directly conflict with the Wild Forest Kobold alternate. Of course, it would be possible to solve this issue by making Wild Forest Kobold require the sacrifice of both Crafty and this new racial trait.
2) Allow Spellcaster Sneak to add the Silent Spell Metamagic at will instead of once per day.
Reason: This will increase the value of the talent overall to Crafty's converted value if alteration 1 is completed.
3) Grant Echo Whistler's Sense Motive racial bonus at all times, rather than under a specific circumstance.
4) Wyrmcrowned should provide a bonus to both Intimidate and Bluff, rather than to one selection. Additionally, giving each as a class skill does not alter the final RP cost.
5) Dragonscaled should provide a second effect in addition to resistance based on scale color.
While additional changes would need to be made to Dragonmaw and Frightener to place their RP cost at-level with the Armor racial it replaces, and there are two flavor-based alternates left unaccounted. I'm not entirely certain how to measure in RP these features and as such have left them out of the calculations.
Don't forget to make small size actually cost something. At least say, 1 point. And xenophobic language should be -1 considering that it costs the same that standard does, and standard gives 3 more languages.
EDIT: My mistake, I though you were re-adjusting the RP costs of the abilities for a home game, but my suggestion does not follow your method.
Actually, standard provides 1 racial language (if applicable) + either common or undercommon. I've concluded thus far the only explanation for races being listed as standard languages but not having common/undercommon tends to be those that don't have a language specifically named after them. For examples, Orcs get Orc + Common, but Kobolds only get Draconic.
I do not know if this was intentional, as there are counterexamples to this theory, namely Tieflings, whom receive a non-racial language along with Common and are still considered having standard languages.
As to your suggestions to alter the normalization of RP for specific imbalances, that is something I plan to do after solidifying the existing ruleset. I agree that there should be a shift between Xenophobic and Standard, but would rather first normalize each race to at least remain at a consistent racial power level so DMs can more freely use this otherwise underused system of race customization.
I believe all the imbalances and unnecessary complications result in many simply refusing to make use of it at all, and the most effective way to begin discussion on improvement is through making this system easier to comprehend.
* * *
I have completed several more race audits, this post shall focus on the Fetchling. There is very little out of place and this was one of the more consistent, but the following points have been noted:
1) The Spell-like ability racial trait should have an increased cost to their current values. While there are scaling level limitations, even with proper reductions it is still granting access to 6th- and 7th-level spells. This would increase their total RP cost by 3.
2) The Shadow Magic alternate racial trait provides a converted value of 1 RP, while replacing a trait which costs 4. It is recommended to boost the strength of this trait to keep it in-line, perhaps with the inclusion of a skill boost/class skill.
3) The Outsider archetype currently costs 1 more than the sum of its parts. This could be to denote the added boon of not being affected by certain spells with humanoid requirements, but I am of the belief this boon is just as much a weakness, and as such negates itself.
Will need clarification on archetype discrepancies if possible.
I have reconsidered placing suggestions after reviews of each race, and have chosen to instead give the variance and true value instead. This is to show truly how much variance the current races have and how improperly balanced the current system is. Remember, 2 RP is equivalent to 1 pre-selected feat or +2 to one skill, thus higher variance can have a potentially huge impact on inter-character balance if no solution is discussed or found.
I will label each in order of the SRD which I've completed thus far. I will not be auditing the core races at this time as those do not interest me.
It is structured as such - Race Name:Min-Max (Base)
Aasimar: 10-19 (15)
Catfolk: 3-14 (9)
Dhampir: 8-12 (12)
Drow: 12-15 (14) [Noble: Add 27 to this value]
Fetchling: 16-19 (19)
Goblin: 5-14 (14)
Hobgoblin: 7-13 (7)
Ifrit: 6-14 (6)
Kobold: 2-7 (7)
Orc: 5-8 (8)
Oread: 6-8 (6)
Ratfolk: 7-15 (12)
Sylph: 6-10 (6)
Tengu: 11-20 (20)
Tiefling: 8-13 (12)
Undine: 7-21 (7)
The excel sheet linked within the original post contains all calculations for each sheet to make this list. This is the closest to universal comparison that can be made between race choices including all alternate racial trait possibilities.
This list is not reducing values for potentially "useless" racial traits added to a race. A +4 racial bonus to stealth is equal to a +4 racial bonus to linguistics, for example. There are still some holes (variance can increase from this point), but those are from effects which there are no secondary points to compare/scale it in relation to other races. These have been left out of the calculation or assumed at face-value until a proper method of calculating them can arise.
Kobolds don't need a language named "Kobold." They have a racial language that is not Common: Draconic. They can therefore take the xenophobic penalty of not speaking Common.
After looking over additional races, I agree that no change is required except to re-list kobolds as Xenophobic. Currently, kobolds are listed as having the standard language set, but the contents more closely follow xenophobic.
You missed a bit:
In cases where the language trait instructs you to choose a racial language, that language is either the race's racial language (if any; feel free to create a new language for the race if you wish), Draconic (if it is a humanoid with the reptilian subtype), or, if the race is of the outsider (native) type, one of the planar languages (Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Ignan, Infernal, or Terran) of the corresponding plane. (Creatures tied to Abaddon can take either Abyssal or Infernal as a racial language.) If your race is native to the Darklands, you can replace Common with Undercommon.
Quoted from the PRD. Kobolds were already Xenophobic, but Xenophobic and Standard have the same RP cost anyway.
Quoted from the PRD. Kobolds were already Xenophobic, but Xenophobic and Standard have the same RP cost anyway.
Thank you for the clarification on subsets of rules on what qualifies as a racial language. In my previous post I have agreed kobolds are xenophobic, even though my current source of information has kobolds listed as standard.
* * *
I've completed an additional set of races. These previously had an unlisted RP or had no alternate racial traits, and my conclusion on this set of work is more recent additions to the pre-determined list were more accurate.
The first section will be structured as such-Race Name: Min-Max (Base/Listed)
Uncommon Races set
Changeling: 8-8 (8/?)
Duergar: 8-8 (8/8)
Gillmen: 1-5 (5/?)
Grippli: 8-10 (10/6)
Kitsune: 11-11 (11/?)
Merfolk: 14-18 (15/?)
Nagaji: 6-8 (8/?)
Samsaran: 14-14 (14/?)
Strix: 16-18 (17/?)
Suli: 9-15 (15/16)
Svirfneblin: 35-41 (37/24)
Vanara: 8-9 (8/8)
Vishkanya: 14-14 (14/13)
Wayang: 8-10 (10/?)
The following have no alternate racial traits, and as such have no variance. The structure has been shifted to: Race Name: Real/Listed
1-10 set
Gnoll: 7/6
Lizardfolk: 10/8
Monkey Goblin: 10/10
Skinwalker: 11/10
Triaxian: 9/10
11-20 set
Android: 17/16
Gathlain: 12/12
Ghoran: 22/19
Kasatha: 20/20
Lashunta(Female): 12/11
Lashunta(Male): 11/11
Syrinx: 19/16
Wyrwood: -/20 (Construct type indeterminate)
Wyvaran: 12/20
21-30 set
Centaur: 28/28
Ogre: 23/23
Trox: 25/28
31+ set
Drider: 35/35
Gargoyle (+4 NA): 35/36
Gargoyle (+5 NA): 39/36
Unknown set
Aquatic Elf: 16/?
Kuru (medium): 6/?
Kuru (large): 14/?
To clarify why some names appear twice, there was a discrepancy dependent on what is inside the parentheses which could not be determined without further information. Kurus, for example, are not given a specific type or size.
I'm going to be checking over the core races, then third-party races. If the third-party races appear too challenging to gauge, I'll abandon the effort.
* * *
Since it appears Xenophobic is the racial trait that draws interest, I'm going to push forward on the rebalancing effort of languages. I believe the best method of tackling this is the following:
1) Xenophobic: 1 racial language spoken, can learn up to 4. RP modifier: -1
2) Standard: 2 languages spoken, can learn up to 8 (up from 7). RP modifier: 0
3) Linguist: 2 languages spoken, can learn any number. RP modifier: +1
With xenophobic being exactly half of standard, and standard being roughly half the effect of linguist in most campaign scenarios, I believe this is the most balanced approach to the issue.
I have calculated the true RP of each core race, and collected some rather surprising results. Base is the true RP of each race as "vanilla," listed is the current RP of the race as seen from official sources.
As always the layout is as such: Race Name: Min-Max(Base/Listed)
Dwarf: 9-15 (11/11)
Elf: 6-12 (10/10)
Gnome: 12-16 (13/10)
Half-Elf: 9-27 (11/10)
Half-Orc: 5-16 (8/8)
Halfling: 5-22 (9/9)
Human: 3-18 (9/9)
While it is debatable that the RP of the extremes are situational, the true values are calculated purely by the quantity of additions using the increments defined. If a given boost is situational (i.e. not always active for a given skill or only applies to a portion of a skill's possible uses), reductions are being taken into account. RP is calculated under the assumption that a given racial trait can be used to a modicum of its ability, and is balanced accordingly since it will then be directly compared to the potential power levels of other racial traits in a given campaign's environment.
In relation to the original link, I've condensed the sheets to make it appear less overly large. This makes each page a bit more cluttered, but overall makes it easier to gloss through relevant sections, which are: core races (CR), Featured Races (FR1/Kobold/FR2), Monstrous Races (MR). Uncommon Races (UR). The first page remains a general allocation sheet for personal reference.
To alleviate possible discontent of needing to scroll back up, the link is once again here.
* * *
Since the languages discussion has not garnered any attention, I'll move toward a different, yet significant, point of possible contention: Creature Type.
Currently, all types that are not humanoid costs unnecessary RP for the actual benefits gained. It is currently possible to mirror the effects granted by several types without needing to select the type. This loss in RP could be considered a "tax" on gaining access to other racial powers not accessible by humanoids, but I am of the belief that this is poor design. This opinion is backed by the lack of races which are currently using these racial qualities.
1) Dragon has a listed cost of 10 RP, but to obtain all the effects which result from being typed as dragon is 5.
2) Monstrous Humanoids and Aberrations cost 3, but provide 2.
3) Fey cost 2, but provide 1.
On the other end, there are some types which are currently below cost to the benefits granted, or in some cases, are entirely impossible to gauge if it can be used because of the extreme differences that result from using it.
4) Plants cost 10, yet provide 11 or potentially more for additional boons which cannot currently be determined value-wise.
5) Constructs at their very core appear to break games by being a powerhouse at the cost of potential permadeath. The same occurs with the Undead type.
Let us try a simpler discussion. Kobolds' Greater Weakeness is incorrectly allocated, rules as written.
Greater Weakness must provide +2 to one stat group (physical or mental), and -4 along with -2 to two attributes in the other stat group. Kobolds currently provide all three in a single stat group.
There are three possible solutions:
1) Since nothing else currently uses greater weakness, the pre-requisites can be reduced/removed.
2) Reallocate the bonus to dexterity to some mental stat.
3) Use a different allocation method.
The lack of feedback thus far has given me no reason to give my stance on the topic.
* * *
I've added the following homebrewed races to the link. I've attempted to maintain a relative racial power 20 or lower. Since many of the races are of a large size category, this proved especially challenging.
Race name:RP value
Drider: 17 RP
Oronci: 18 RP
Centaur: 15 RP
Formian: 14 RP
Serpentfolk: 13 RP
I am currently using an altered reincarnation table in one of my games, and will be generating additional races relatively balanced for player usage, and will be posting completed blocks for review (which at this point I do not expect to get).
If one is interested in seeing these race sheets in detail to understand how I achieved the above power levels, they can be found here. To see the reincarnation planned for use, it can be found here.
Let us try a simpler discussion. Kobolds' Greater Weakeness is incorrectly allocated, rules as written.
Greater Weakness must provide +2 to one stat group (physical or mental), and -4 along with -2 to two attributes in the other stat group. Kobolds currently provide all three in a single stat group.
Nope.
Greater Weakness (–3 RP): Pick either mental or physical ability scores. Members of this race take a –4 penalty to one of those ability scores, a –2 penalty to another of those ability scores, and a +2 bonus to the other ability score.
That clearly states that all of the modifiers are on the same half (Either +2/-2/-4 Physical 0/0/0 Mental, or 0/0/0 Physical, +2/-2/-4 Mental). There was a kobold topic earlier that this came up in too.
Unrelatedly, how'd you come up with points for the Merfolk's speeds?
Greater Weakness (–3 RP): Pick either mental or physical ability scores. Members of this race take a –4 penalty to one of those ability scores, a –2 penalty to another of those ability scores, and a +2 bonus to the other ability score.That clearly states that all of the modifiers are on the same half (Either +2/-2/-4 Physical 0/0/0 Mental, or 0/0/0 Physical, +2/-2/-4 Mental). There was a kobold topic earlier that this came up in too.
Unrelatedly, how'd you come up with points for the Merfolk's speeds?
I believe that is more an interpretation of the wording. I would prefer the wording were more clear, since "other" is used to describe both the other type along with a score that has not been selected. Perhaps "to the last ability score (of the type chosen)," for example.
* * *
I considered the negatives to follow a tier system that removes 10 feet per round or half (minimum -5) on each successive acquisition after the first, then used a naming heirarchy from normal to sessile. The point reductions follow linearly in a similar fashion to extra acquisitions of Fast, but at a worse ratio so it cannot be too efficient of a point sink to overpower a race.
Example:
Normal (0): 30 feet per round
Slow (-1): 20 feet per round
G. Slow (-2): 10-15 feet per round
Crippled (-3): 5 feet per round
Sessile (-4): Cannot move or take 5 foot steps.
"The Other" to me clearly indicates the remaining one of the three previously indicated; otherwise there is no one single ability score to be "the other." If it meant what you're interpreting it as, it would be phrased closer to "One of the other type of ability score."
"The Other" to me clearly indicates the remaining one of the three previously indicated; otherwise there is no one single ability score to be "the other." If it meant what you're interpreting it as, it would be phrased closer to "One of the other type of ability score."
The topic in which you focus has already drawn to a conclusion. If editing earlier posts were a possibility, I'd have negated my previous claim.
On the topic of creating a more true racial power system, I can now see this is not currently a focus for a majority involved. I shall instead focus on a secondary project to increase accessibility to monstrous races for medium to medium-high power campaigns without neutering their core concepts. The long-term goal is to remove level adjustment.