I've been thinking about the so-called "15 minute adventuring day" as pertains to spell-casting balance. I've got a slightly different take than most: as a GM I haven't really had trouble with taxing my players or keeping the time pressure on. I'm pretty good at it (or maybe Kirth will say my players are just being gentlemen).
The thing is, I just don't care for daily balance mechanics all that much. Since adopting strain-injury, I've really started to think of encounter balance as either single-encounters or however many encounters I can reasonably expect to chain before R&R occurs, as per the Strain rules.
If potential R&R points represent a "break" in the action, then they also become the most tempting spots for casters to push for a full 8 hour rest.
The thing is, in the one game I've currently running, those 8-hour rests are just not thematic! What would be more thematic, to my mind, would be if casting your best spells took personal energy, tired you out, and made you more vulnerable; in a word, strain damage.
Casting from hit points is nothing new. I could link to TV Tropes on this one, but I value your time more than that.
I'm starting this thread to mine ideas and process the potential of a strain-based casting system replacing the spells-per-day system.
As a start: What would happen if instead of resting 8 hours to prepare spells, casters had whatever spells they chose during their last period of study/prayer (for prepared casters) or their spells known, and they could cast any one of those spells at any time. Each time they cast a spell, they suffer strain damage equal to twice the spell's level (or 1 hp for a cantrip/orison).
This would mean that you average first level wizard might cast two first level spells before becoming seriously worried about his hit points. However, after a quick R&R scene, he'd be back at max. That R&R scene is the same one that lets the martial characters regain HP.
A 9th level full caster would have around 40-60 hit points to play with. His highest level spells would cost 10hp stain to cast, making it likely that he would only wish to cast two or three at most, and even then it is a risk. How closely does this model a correctly functioning daily cycle?
For one thing, if that 9th level caster decides to slum it with first and second level spells, they can cast a TON of them. However, my assumption is that this was always true, and that the action economy will make sure this looks rather like the RAW in practice.
The ramifications are far-reaching, I understand. Please announce any that come to mind.
For starters, classes with a higher HD type get a considerable advantage in this system. In theory, higher HD casting classes have slightly inferior spells, though in practice I can't say I've found that to be the case.
So your Druids and Clerics will have more HP available, and therefore more spells to cast before entering a threshold of risk with their HP.
At the same time, casting from your HP is a very unappealing option for casters who wade into melee. It might balance out. Definitely this system favors high HD casters who were already keeping their distance.
I'm going to point out, losing hit points for using your primary class feature isn't fun.
I played a Green Ronin Psychic with the hp strain (basically non-lethal damage) that accompanied its use. It just felt like a punishment for using my powers.
Might I recommend an alternative:
When characters rest, they regain spell-slots in any combination equal to their level (or level -4 for Paladins/Rangers/etc). So a 5th level mage can regain a 2nd level slot and 3 1st level slots after a quick rest. Or 2 2nds and a 1st. They can't prepare new spells in those slots, merely regain the spell that was in the expended slot.
Yeah, as a rule, this is tricky because if you make the damage super low, then it doesn't change anything and if you make it a reasonable amount, then it feels like punishment.
I think something like this would only work well if the players are consulted ahead of time and say that they are ok with trying it out.
1st level Bard with 1 HP left trying to cast Cure Light Wounds on himself is playing Russian Roulette with an 8-shooter. lolz.
the 'spontaneous rebate' kinda goes against the mathematic kiss principle that implicitly underlies this entire proposal.
maybe instead they get a HP boost? either increased HD or they sub their casting stat for bonus HP?
or maybe (some? all?) casters begin each encounter with a small mana pool (slightly bigger for spontaneous) which absorbs casting strain (kinda like temporary HP) prior to tapping their HP?
this could be Casting Stat x Highest Spell Slot, double for spontaneous?
Evil Linc... still time light but in the interim have you seen the 'Midnight' system?
It does use spell points but they are rather tight.
Casting stat is your spell points.
You only get 1 sp for each caster level.
Casting costs are simple. Level 1 spell is one point, level 2 is 2 and so on. There is an ingame rule for the damage dealing evocation and summoning type spells as well that adds 1 to this cost. Metamagic affects the cost simply by adding spell levels.
It doesn't give you a lot of points to work with when rubber hits the road.
If you assume a level 3 wiz/sorc with 18 casting stat, you'll have 7 SP.
You can burn through those FAST.
The flip side? You can take con damage on a 1-1 ratio if you need to. That damage needed rest to heal. My games I used the attribute damage/recovery rules so it was slow to comeback - restoration wouldnt work on the spell damage. In the Midnight rules it was 8 hour rest and all was well (a little lenient for my taste).
I always liked this because casters could go nova but generally speaking had to be cautious.
It only had one spell casting class but you could and would take different approaches depending on if you were an Int/Wis/Cha caster, taking flavour from the Wiz/Cleric-Druid/Bard classes depending on what you chose.
Spell available was very limited too but thats another topic.
There are other factors involved but thats what I am tinkering with now.
I do like the idea of flexibility and spell points and spell damage - its something that is a common trope in Fantasy books and moves - magic is demanding and tiring and not at all vancian.
Its finding the right mechanism thats the trouble.
For strain to spell? Given that you can take a rest/refit it creates some opportunity to nova each battle so there needs be something changed or added.
I believe black company dealt with this by having magic power (level + stat) that gave you a pool of magic points which could be used to boost spell effects, make magic items (major permanent ones permanently reduced the pool although certain feats could increase it) and acted as a buffer reducing HP damage from casting. Someone could cast one massive spell (they were component base so a first level caster could just keep upping say the d6 damage till using the spell would kill them) that drained their magic pool + hp or lots of little spells that where reduced to 1hp damage.
I sorta like that approach - messing around with some concepts off allowing open access to metamagic without needing to buy the feats.
The idea of supercharging could be fufilled by metamagic (maximise, empower etc) without needing to calculate for each dice.
WHICH IS NOT TO SAY I AM NOT THINKING ABOUT THAT... the mechanics of making it work and balance are just something I've pushed to one side (ie casting the spell as a level 1 spell costs 1 but casting that same spell as level 3 - like Magic Missile - costs 3 points), but the question of 'what about charm person or sleep or colour spray' comes up because they don't need to charged to work.
Going along with the spell pool line, you could make the pool equal to Spellcraft ranks + Con mod. This means, they'll never have more points than their HD (and a good Con). This isn't an undue skill burden on most casters, since it's something they will likely take anyhow, but other, less devoted classes with spell-casting might be tempted to shortchange the skill and thus not benefit from the extra training a strict casting class will receive.
Casting a spell using the points could cost 1 point per spell level, but it will always use the lowest possible caster level for effects. So for example, a 7th-level sorcerer with 16 Con (+3) would have 10 spell points (assuming max rank of 7 in Spellcraft). Normally his lightning bolt would deal 7d6 electrical damage, but using spell points, it would cost 3 spell points and function at minimum caster level 6 (for a sorcerer).
Alternatively, you could have the spell point cost be equal to the caster level desired of the spell, minimum being the lowest caster level to cast and maximum being the caster's level. In which case, using the previous example, the sorcerer could use 6 points for a CL 6 lightning bolt (the minimum to cast) or spend 7 for a CL 7 lightning bolt (the highest level he can cast).
This system does make sorcerers much more powerful than wizards however. Since the basic strength of sorcerers is their ability to cast many more spells per day than wizards (though a more limited selection) this only increases their strength. A wizard's benefit is their wide variety of potential choices, which they must plan ahead for. They'll find this system less helpful unless it includes a way for them to benefit by possibly changing out spells.
For instance, in addition to using points to cast additional prepared spells, perhaps they can swap out a prepared spell for an equal level one in their spellbook for an equal cost of spell points. This should take time, maybe 15 minutes or so. This prevents using it in combat but is still hugely better than having to take an 8-hour rest.
If you really, really wanted to limit this to strictly focused casters, you could make this system require a familiar. That's of course, all dependent on whether your want an overall increase to every spell-casting class, or were just thinking about wizards and sorcerers mostly. Then you just need to determine how fast the spell point pool recharges, either fully per day, or an hour, or Con mod per hour (min 1), etc.
I'm looking at scrapping the Wizard all together, along with the other caster classes (have something for rangers and pallies that keeps them more or less as is) and replacing it with a generic spell casting class that you customise to flavour.
That class would be a spontaneous caster class.
I have a Spell point system in mind but now having some breathing space I want to look at ELs strain mechanic. Starting to have a read and a think.
I've ALWAYS felt that the vancian system fell short. It did the job and I've used it for nearly 30 years now and its not bad per se. Hell, its worked this long.
But the vast majority of fantasy fiction I've read has wizards and such being fatigued by heavy spell use and reluctant to go full nova, and when they did, they had little in the tank or needed to be carried etc.
But every time I used spell points (tried a few different systems) it seems the caster actually got the better end of the deal and by level 6 or 7 they were awesome but never seemed to a) run out of spell points and b) suffer negative consequences and c) be fluid enough to make magic really customisable on the fly.
All that said, I really should read Words of Power. The answers I seek may be there.
Going back to Injury Strain... Tying casting to some part of the casters vital essence, and making it so they feel the risk is really hitting the mark.
rainzax wrote:
1st level Bard with 1 HP left trying to cast Cure Light Wounds on himself is playing Russian Roulette with an 8-shooter. lolz.
the 'spontaneous rebate' kinda goes against the mathematic kiss principle that implicitly underlies this entire proposal.
or maybe (some? all?) casters begin each encounter with a small mana pool (slightly bigger for spontaneous) which absorbs casting strain (kinda like temporary HP) prior to tapping their HP?
this could be Casting Stat x Highest Spell Slot, double for spontaneous?
I think this is where its better. A small reserve of spell energy would be a big help. It would be a tough sell to kill yourself with your first casting of the day. I do agree with one of the posters above, that it would feel like an ability tax to lose hitpoints, particulary in large multiples. Flat cost may be your friend here. More on that later.
With 3/4 casters having more hps maybe full caster /d6 hd classes can have a greater initial pool before it starts inflicting strain. It would also better fit the tropes of inherent ability before they have to worry about them having to eat damage.
The argument that cleric/druid spells arent as good as the wiz list has SOME small justification but if you factor in Bards, Inquisitors and Magi then its a different case. For sanity? a flat cost would be best. Caster multiples could be done away with then, just give them a smaller pool of initial energy.
So lets go back to spell costs. I see no reason why cantrips cant be free. They are under RAW and they don't unduly unbalance the game as a result. 1 hp for a level 1, 2 for a level 2 etc would be fine.
Metamagic will let you do a LOT but obviously you burn through your strain pool.
Where the strain thing comes unstuck is not combat casting. Its out of combat casting. I know you play in scenes etc rather than by minute but at higher levels to be able to lay down some good buffs then take a 5-10min breather (esp. with lvl/hr spells) is a no brainer.
Part of the limitation of the current vancian system that is undergoing review using the strain/injury mechanic is balancing the 'resource' of offense, defense and utility. Do you cast or memorise that mage armour or use it on burning hands (or colour spray, grease etc). With this system it isn't a factor.
I am not sure how best to tie it to strain.
Say... Wiz/Sor/Witch get 2 Spellpoints a level (this is just throwing crap against the wall and see what sticks) they can compensate for their lesser hitpoints to some degree and 3/4 full casters (or even semi casters) get 1 every 2 levels (the first hit is free :D ) Pallys and rangers could get 1 every 4 levels ORRRRRRRR.... (sorry its late and I babble)... we reverse the old BAB on them.
Casters get 1 Spell point whenever their BAB remains static. Wizards get 1 at 1st, 3rd, 5th etc. Bards etc 1 at 1st then 5th etc and full sword swingers? Toughen up, you should have studied harder.
Or some variant based on BAB would be great. Mind you by the time a 3/4 d8 hd caster hits 5th, that second spell point wouldnt look so hot.
So maybe spell casting stat bonus at level 1 for wiz/witch etc. 1/2 for 3/4 casters and 1 at 5th (for the rangers etc) then the above mechanic?
Perhaps via the mechanism of temp con damage will achieve the same goal - losing con invariably would result in an effect on hps (strain) but you need to put something in place before you start chewing on your con. I say that because thats where I am at the moment (and finding it difficult to think outside the box)
remember that in strain-injury, being able to cure 1d8+x injury damage is well worth two points of strain. It surely won't help much in the middle of a fight, but then again cure spells rarely do.
Does it need to be that expensive (a relative term)?
Hitpoints (strain) are used for a lot - if used to power something more than just staying upright then the caster class is being doubly hit. Mages become exceptionally squishy, finding it difficult to survive any tight combat as it is, let alone having to sacrifice their megre hps just to do what is core to their identity.
Taking Bards/Inquisitors and Magi - they are expected to fight in varying capacities (which requires hp) but if they use a spell in combat now they are taking hits from themselves as well as the enemy.
As for out of combat healing, one of the things that makes Injury a good delibilitating factor is it costs resources (spell slots, wand charges, potions etc) to fix. Out of combat casting allows for a breather afterwards (a lot of the time) and makes injury a non factor for resource consumption.
Going back to the strain mechanic and a small pool of intergral spell points - having a pool that doesn't replenish (call it the injury of strain for spell casters) without a full nights rest works.
Sure you can blow your load - you'll take some light strain damage in that battle but once gone? Baby those points are gone (or maybe return at a slow rate - 1 per scene in your parlance). You'd be more careful in husbanding those points.
I can definitely appreciate the goal of these proposed house rules. I've even been noodling how to modify some of the caster classes to do just what you're trying to do here, but my goal is slightly different than yours.
what i want out of casting from Strain:
I have a setting I'm noodling through, and am more clearly trying to delineate between arcane/divine as well as prepared/spontaneous casters.
To that end, wizards/magi are remaining the same while spontaneous are getting a bit of an overhaul.. by way of being able to use their magic as normal, plus being able to continue casting when they're out of spell slots by sacrificing strain/Injury.
But as this isn't your goal, we'll just move on. :)
So basically, you want to ditch the daily casting paradigm; moving instead to a casting system that only tracks spell resources used between R&R.
My initial concern with this idea in general is that it favors prepared casters insofar as they very possibly have their full suite of spell-power more often in any given adventuring day. Even if you can manage how often the group feels they can R&R, this shift likely means that the prepared casters can access their full suite of spells more often (at the very least more than once per day, barring you being able to consistently string together all encounters in a day into one mega-encounter).
I would think that prepared casters would then have the freedom to spread their spells out a bit more, giving them an increased level of flexibility with their spell choices. If I know I'm likely to get Fireball "recharged" at any given R&R, I'm less likely to prep more than one or two of them.
Spontaneous casters don't have that luxury... they're once again stuck with their selection, though I guess the idea is that they can use those spells a bit more freely. However, that's not really a full point in their favor because prepared casters can similarly benefit, leaving them a bit ahead (unless I'm missing something).
Going back to the strain mechanic and spell points - having a pool that doesn't replenish (call it the injury of strain for spell casters) without a full nights rest works.
My understanding is that MEL is trying to do away with the daily casting paradigm.
Got an idea - not directly applicable but a fringe balancing rule.
Prepared spells cost flat rate but they have the ability to add metamagic on the fly at a 1.5 or 2x multiple.
Sorcs (and oracles and bards - even clerics with healing spells) just pay the flat metamagic adjusted cost but by and large have a lot less selection (giving you the same flavor) but both would have the ability to make some really awesome (and draining) metamagic stuff happen. Wizards are best at prep in advance - a MM enchanced spell costs its flat rate in strain but then they can at least have some woopy.
Now hears the question... do prepped spells work the same way? So if I memorise MM once, then strain mechanic aside I only cast it once? ie, no change to rules as written just adding a strain component?
For strain to spell? Given that you can take a rest/refit it creates some opportunity to nova each battle so there needs be something changed or added.
Hm. Let's take an extreme case. A certain famous evil transmuter has 382 HP at 20th level. If he "goes nova" with the RAW, he still gets some six 9th level spells to cast before he's out, and then he can still go to 8th level spells, etc.
If a 9th level spell costs him 18 hp strain, then casting his normal six spells would leave him 108 damage down, or a third of his HP.
This is where the analysis gets tricky: will casters opt to be conservative due to the risk commensurate with HP loss, or will the go all-in every battle and just hope nobody deals the killing blow?
helaman wrote:
All that said, I really should read Words of Power. The answers I seek may be there.
Nope, not really. WoP has its own issues, and it certainly isn't "simpler" by any description.
helaman wrote:
Going back to Injury Strain... Tying casting to some part of the casters vital essence, and making it so they feel the risk is really hitting the mark.
That's where I'm coming from too, it's about risk. Though not necessarily sheer exhaustion (though that's a part of strain) — it's also about all that gesticulating and shouting that goes along with magic. Remember, anything that divides your attention can potentially be strain damage. Getting attacked by one guy deals strain because it makes it hard to defend against a second guy.
That's the sense I get from a casting strain rule. It's much more like a fantasy pulp, where the wizard can cast and cast, but if the hero isn't incapacitated by the spells, he's eventually going to get a whack in.
helaman wrote:
I think this is where its better. A small reserve of spell energy would be a big help. It would be a tough sell to kill yourself with your first casting of the day. I do agree with one of the posters above, that it would feel like an ability tax to lose hitpoints, particulary in large multiples.
What people seem to be overlooking is that this is strain damage. You might chew through 1/3 of your HP casting your best spells, but then you can take a short rest and you're back at full! The tradeoff is, not being conservative with what you cast increases the likelihood you will be injured by incoming attacks (as a final blow).
helaman wrote:
Where the strain thing comes unstuck is not combat casting. Its out of combat casting. I know you play in scenes etc rather than by minute but at higher levels to be able to lay down some good buffs then take a 5-10min breather (esp. with lvl/hr spells) is a no brainer.
That's a solid point, and it's something that must be dealt with if the stated objective of the rule is to switch from a per-day to a per-R&R cycle.
One approach would be to say that having any dismissable spell effects active prevents you from taking R&R.
As for buffer points: I already feel the system I presented is too generous. I have a hard time reconciling giving casters more out of this. It already lets them cast all day or cast their best spells every scene if they play smart. Because strain is a renewable resource, all they're really paying for spellcasting is risk — a player who is good at managing that risk can get more out of the system. Why introduce a buffer to that risk?
Anyway, interesting thoughts all around, thanks for the discussion.
Taking from your example of the Infamous 20th level caster... he SHOULD be able to sling the big boys around like that. With a 20th level fighter in his face - they may be able to inflict 200 strain a round but he's gotten off a lot of 9th level spells.
Try it as a 5th level witch. Lets assume 30hps with con etc.
4 hps on a 2nd level spell is a thing. Not a big thing but noticable especially if there are inbound arrows, or lots of little kobolds etc or even a guy in your face that you are just praying would go away and leave you alone.
I know the overall principal is the same - manage the risk - but it feels ultra risky if I take a sword hit (strain) for 10 pts later that round. Because (crits aside) a 3rd level spell or even a 2nd level spell is gonna be almost prohibitive. What if instead that caster was at 5 hitpoints? I mean they got big issues already to worry about but managing your primary class feature against dropping yourself to negs when the party needs that fireball or something is a bit of drag.
You have a really thin margin to work with. They get D6 for hitpoints - but unlike the fighter, those hitpoints are pulling double duty. Sure they get it all back but if it works to make them ineffective in being able to contribute at key moments then there is something that isn't clicking.
I'm just throwing stuff out there but a small *not big* pool to draw on, innate magic, talent or whatever, would give caster who have already a lot to fear from combat, something for a rainy day. You could make those points non r&r returnable so in the casters time of deep need? they got something in the tank.
I do like your idea on the Mage Armour etc but what about out of combat healing of injuries?
A group I was in previously did something similar in 3.5 for a few games.
Casting a spell caused 1d4 non-lethal damage to the caster per spell level, those games also had everyone gaining max hp each level. Spell slots were still expended for the day, and there was no rest and refit mechanic (though the GM was pretty liberal about handing out wands of CLW).
I thought it was working out fairly well (but, then, I was playing a Paladin in that game, so did minimal spell casting). I know one of the guys playing a wizard felt that the penalty was too steep, but he had some bad luck with the dice, so maybe changing it to a set amount of HP would change that.
I do like your idea on the Mage Armour etc but what about out of combat healing of injuries?
Could you elaborate?
Recall that one of the fundamental axioms of strain-injury design was that a rational party will do everything in its power to heal to full HP whenever possible. This holds for strain-injury campaigns, where injury damage tends to get cured off as fast as the players can deal with it. It's a rare scenario that has the players so taxed that they walk around with injury damage (or strain damage, for that matter).
Your game your rules and I'm liking the resource light approach to healing but it still has some resource consumption and cost. Wounds are something that stick, they matter. If you can use this for essentially free injury recovery then injury ceases to carry the same significance or narrative impact.
I have to admit I am more in favour of a mana pool +hp pool with maybe an arcane unique magic stat that is 10 +d8 than having hp do double duty (divine favour for clerics and with an optional if the pools reduced to 1/4 max they're fatigued, if emptied entirely they're exhausted). Aside from anything else a wizard can only cast their spells but a cleric just casts heal mudfight and bang he's back at full casting capability. Is also suggest looking at the black company/true sorcery rules.
I think any additional pool would need to be small. I think given that the caster effectively is getting their spells back with rest and refit we don't want to remove the risk entirely or make it so any casting is neglible... the point is to make them feel drained by the experience. I think cantrips costing 1 and level 1 spells costing 2 and so on is a tad steep as I said before, as would be any multiplier. I really think spell level = cost is the way to go.
Consider this, a level 4 spell is essentially a HD in damage, and thats without multiples. If we use a X2 on the system above, a level 3 spell is a significant hit to the system.
I think there is some gold to mine here - I'm not poo pooing it, its just not feeling right to me and feeling like the spell caster, particularly the D6 HD ones, are taking a hit that is disproportionately high.
One thing is certain, Strain used in casting just put Toughness as a must have on the spell caster map, as it would for favoured class hps.
If the point is to make the caster feel exhausted then Strain damage makes sense.
If the point is to discourage a full 8-hour rest when the party wants to go on then I really recommend just letting characters regain spell slots that add up to their level.
I am (hopefully soon) trying out another variation of this: 1 nonlethal damage per spell level. (Cantrips cost zero, of course.) I figure your average Wizard can afford to make the call, but he should be exhausted, by a full day of casting, the same way a fighter should be exhausted, but not wounded, but a long day of fighting.
I was actually thinking along those lines too, Alex. In the Dresden Files, Harry is often extremely weak after long bouts of magical combat and channeling eldritch energy. Non-lethal damage and fatigue / exhaustion are good ways to represent that, with enough of the former somehow leading to the latter. To make the playing field truly level, toss in Kirth's suggestion of making fatigue / exhaustion apply to ALL ability scores, rather than just the physical ones. If you did this, it'd be a good start to a Dresden-ish type caster.
I am not sure if this would meet your goals, it's designed to be a mana system for D&D 3.5 but if you convert strain tolerance to your strain system and use the same sliding scale of spell cost it could work for you. You might have to change the numbers on that sliding scale though.
