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I really like the empyreal lords, they're a diverse group of demigods who're good-aligned in a way that'd challenge the mores of the Hallmark Channel's target demographic. (Get those Touched by an Angel jokes out of your system.)
However, the empyreal lords in Bestiary 4 look quite understated compared to demon lords and great old ones, with low stats across the board. Mental ability scores and saves that are low compared to other demigods, HP that's lower than it should be for CR, a lack of item creation and Vial Strike tree feats, a lack of polymorph any object realm powers and at-will shapechange, and sizes that feel too large for two of them (Cernunnos and Korada). Even the spell-like abilities feel comparatively weaker, though I'll concede the debatability of that and the absence of shapechange.
Here's the point I'm trying to make: empyreal lords should get all the stat goodies that the other demigods get. Specifically, if they lack in something then it should be made up for somewhere else. If not, then I can't help but feel they're being snubbed in favor of demon lords, great old ones, and demon lords.
Ideally I'd like to see a web errata sometime in the future, not as a priority but whenever Paizo has some time to spare. Yes, I know that situation will be years away at best. More importantly, I'd like to see empyreal lords in the future get good write-ups.
However, I've seen (and thought up) some arguments against my opinion and so feel the need to belabor my point. Below are my counterarguments, sectioned off for ease of reading.
I made a spreadsheet comparing outsiders of the same CR to each other, and looked at CRs from 2 to 20. Where possible, I sought out other CRs that had sizable enough clusters for multiple data points. I compared mental stats side by side as well as skill points per HD and even individual skills. The spreadsheet's crude, technically incomplete, and maybe more mathematical formality than necessary for monster creation, but it had shown three important trends:
• First, outsiders generally have skill points per HD equal to the number of skills they have, though there are a few cases where skill points per HD is less than the number of skills. In essence, outsiders should at least have nearly maxed-out skills -- even the low-Int ones like the Akvan and Lhaksharut.
• The second trend is that mental stats generally increase with CR. This is essential for Wis and Cha since those affect combat related abilities, Int doesn't so it admittedly isn't essential. However, and this is where monster creation becomes more art and less science, powerful outsiders having high Int is important for story purposes. Powerful, ancient immortals should know lots of things.
• Lastly, celestials aren't generally less intelligent than other outsiders. Just thought I'd pre-empt that argument. Daemons, divs, and inevitibles seem to be, though.
I then compared the empyreal lords written up to demigods of the same CR:
• Cernunnos and Korada have way less skill points per HD than the number of skills they have. While there are a few outsiders like this (e.g., coloxus, morrigna), they're not as severely impacted and they're not demigods.
• The mental scores of Cernunnos and Vildeis are comparable to CR 17 outsiders. The fact that they're both Int 18 Wis 22 Cha 21 suggests error more than intent to me. Further evidence of error over intent is that Cernunnos is given Improved Critical (scimitar) but instead welds a club, while his favored weapon is the club in Chronicles of the Righteous but the longbow in Bestiary 4.
Again, it makes narrative sense for demigods to have a lot of accumulated knowledge, and any exceptions to this should apply to bestial, alien intellects…though it wouldn't surprise if Juiblex (or however it's spelled) ended up with good stats just because he's a demon lord.
Again, low Wis and Cha scores make the DCs of their spells and abilities lower than they should be for CR 28-30 monsters.
However, Paizo should make sure not to be quick to hit empyreal lords with the nerf bat “to differentiate them from demon lords.” Vildeis should at least have alter self, for those occasions when she’s more of an aid worker than a vigilante.
Furthermore, age doesn't really matter in terms of raw power. For example, Iomedae and Arazni are contemporaries but one's a beyond-stats goddess while the other is "merely" a freakishly powerful lich.
As for rules creep, while there's no official definition (or even an unofficial one in Urban Dictionary!) the context I've seen it refer to are additional non-optional gameplay mechanics. Post-publishing polishing is not rules creep in that context. I could argue that demigods having mythic abilities is rules creep but I won't; as much as mentioning it is an implication mythic abilities are defined in the book they're mentioned in, don't show enough to affect most gameplay experiences, and are something I see as adding to rather than detracting from said experience.
An attitude, I might add, I haven’t seen from Paizo. :)
…My, that was quite the manifesto, wasn’t it. I’m not quite done yet, however.
Is there anything you do like about the write-ups?
Yeah, I should end on a positive note (which is why I didn't nest this in a spoiler tag). Here's what I do like:
• The primal auras are interesting since they vary by individual.
• The seed of life ability is fitting for celestial beings.
• The empyreal lords so far seem to have class abilities, something I don't usually see in outsiders.
• The backstory write-ups are good, as is the artwork.
Take note Paizo, if it's something the complainer likes then others likely will as well. Maybe.
While good writing would have me make my concluding statement something of a summary of what I previously said, but I did say I'd on a positive note. Perhaps a tl;dr version of my spiel would count as positive? I know I like getting to the point rather than wading through an argument.
• It makes narrative sense for empyreal lords to be just as mentally powerful as demon lords.
• Demigods should not have spell-like abilities impaired by low Wis and Cha scores.
• According to mathematical trends, empyreal lords should have better mental ability scores.
• Empyreal lords are fun, especially when they scandalize Tess and Monica. ;p
As thorough as I was there’s something I missed, or perhaps you simply wish to comment on what I wrote. Reply away; the more exposure this post gets, the better. :)
A well-thought out complaint.
Cheers, I hope Paizo takes a look at this.
Yes.
I did find them quite weak. And this is one of the better constructed notes I have seen on these forums. I support your endeavor! THey should at LEAST be able to fight demon lords/devil princes equally.
Then again, since players are unlikely to ever face them, paizo will probably give them less attention.
Then again, since players are unlikely to ever face them, paizo will probably give them less attention.
This. I think the developers intentionally downplay the Good side of the equation so that it makes some level of sense for the task of fighting demon lords and devil princes to fall to the PCs. That's a metagame reason, though, which doesn't help in-universe philosophizing.
Count me as severely disappointed in the Empyreal Lord stats. Whoever did them, I hope they don't touch Archdevils at all. Or any CR 25+ creature.
I can't say I ever glance over creatures and really compare them to each other like you did so I don't have much of an opinion on them being underpowered. However that was an excellent all-encompassing case you made so I hope something comes of it.
I thought they seemed a but underpowered.
I mainly noticed the lesser mental scores. Which doesn't fit with the fluff about them having that meeting of the minds or whatever and being so brilliant that they can have this massive discussion in a very brief time with all the lords at once.
I am honestly not that concerned and think the issues are rather blown up. As others have said, most Empyreal Lords are more likely than not to end up as player patrons and the GM will never need to use those stats.
Although I am sure Devs will keep this in mind for the next few that get statted up.
As others have said, most Empyreal Lords are more likely than not to end up as player patrons and the GM will never need to use those stats.
I knew there was something I forgot. I’ll address this argument too.
Assuming you’re not in a Way of the Wicked-style game, one reason empyreals may oppose the PCs is out of simple disagreement. For example, Cernunnos could be fighting for nature a bit too hard, Korada could oppose whatever violence the PCs are up to, and Patch wrote a whole article on Vildeis.
Furthermore, the argument that stats needn’t be good if they’re unlikely to be used falls short when we take into consideration all the good-aligned monsters out there, particularly the solar. That monster had the best stats way back when D&D tools were in HyperCard.
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I imagine that the Empyreal Lords don't need to be as powerful as their fiendish equivalents.
Being good, they have the loyal, devoted support of an army of minions, whereas evil beings must struggle constantly against others of their kind to maintain their positions since the evil realms are a savage dog-eats-dog environment.
Maybe that's a legit reason why one an individual basis they are less powerful.
But why should they be less powerful FOR THE SAME CR?CR is supposed to measure power, if they are less powerful, they should have lower CR.
Having lower power for their CR is simply not necessary if you want some dynamic along the lines you described.
I think you are making the same mistake I have seen alot of Role-Player make. You are taking two very different things and putting them in a static areana battle thing and thinking they both should be perfectly balanced against each other. They should not be because they fill very different roles.
Here are some counter arguements to why Demonb Lords might be more powerful than their counterparts.
Good tend to work together alot better than evil (even Lawful Evil) so who to say it will be one Empyreal Lord vs one Demon Lord?
Good also tends to be restrained with power as it tends to be sane.
Good also will more likely share power than evil.
Also you are as powerful as the things you tend to fight. I doubt highly most Empyreal Lord fight things of their powerlevel often as I think actualy direct confrontation between Empyreal Lords and Demon lords happen often. On the other hand Demon Lord (and probably archdevils) often fight amongest them selves.
Anyway I don't neccessary disagree with and think that their is defintly room for more powerful Empyreal Lords...I just think it makes sense that Demon Lords and Archdevils will be on a invidual basis be more powerful.
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I think you are making the same mistake I have seen alot of Role-Player make. You are taking two very different things and putting them in a static areana battle thing and thinking they both should be perfectly balanced against each other. They should not be because they fill very different roles.
Here are some counter arguements to why Demonb Lords might be more powerful than their counterparts.
Good tend to work together alot better than evil (even Lawful Evil) so who to say it will be one Empyreal Lord vs one Demon Lord?
Good also tends to be restrained with power as it tends to be sane.
Good also will more likely share power than evil.
Also you are as powerful as the things you tend to fight. I doubt highly most Empyreal Lord fight things of their powerlevel often as I think actualy direct confrontation between Empyreal Lords and Demon lords happen often. On the other hand Demon Lord (and probably archdevils) often fight amongest them selves.
Anyway I don't neccessary disagree with and think that their is defintly room for more powerful Empyreal Lords...I just think it makes sense that Demon Lords and Archdevils will be on a invidual basis be more powerful.
If they're meant to be less powerful they should have lower CRs simple as that. If they should have they same impact (CR) in group or massed combat then their support abilities and mental stats should fit that even if their direct offensive abilities are weaker. Also the ones who lorewise are all about direct confrontation like Ragathiel and Cernunnos should have stat-lines comparable to solo combat demon lords.
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What I would really like to see is "neutral" equivalents. Where are the CR-25+ inevitables, psychopomps & proteans? Those could make compelling enemies.
Maybe that's a legit reason why one an individual basis they are less powerful.
But why should they be less powerful FOR THE SAME CR?
CR is supposed to measure power, if they are less powerful, they should have lower CR.
Having lower power for their CR is simply not necessary if you want some dynamic along the lines you described.
Not all monsters of the same CR are equal. There are CR 1 swarms immune to weapon damage. A given CR is more a range of power that averages out to be roughly equal. It's not a formula. It's more of a gut check. That said, I'd be all for more powerful Empyreal Lords. I think they're awesome.
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Another argument I wish to debunk: Because they cooperate, empyreal lords should be individually weaker than evil-aligned demigods.
The desire to dominate others is not the only intrinsic reason to become ever more powerful. There’s also the desire to protect others, or simple self-perfection, or maybe a given empyreal lord was just lucky and got a great deal of cosmic power from the start. There’s also the fact that having a support system makes becoming more powerful less of an all-or-nothing gamble. I believe that’s the principle behind education.
As I’ve said before, there is no evidence that celestials are generally less intelligent or individually weaker. Regarding intelligence, I back that claim up with statistical evidence. Yes, I’m familiar with that Twain quote. Regarding individual power, I haven’t done a trend analysis of the powers of outsiders but neither have celestials seemed weaker to me. Different, yes (less HP at the lower CRs, more healing and utility spells overall), but not weaker.
On a related note…
So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
And we know how that worked out. The Schwartz was not strong with that one.
More seriously, evil is dumb when a verifiable afterlife is taken into consideration. In a best-case scenario, an evil person will be alone amongst enemies at the top. A more likely scenario is being merely one eternal victim among a countless many. Contrast this with good-aligned afterlives; celestials only get screwed over when they get in over their head, while goodly souls can opt to either transcend or luxuriate for eternity.
A more concrete example of evil being dumb is Cheliax, where the nobles have convinced themselves that Hell serves them. This is like beef cattle believing humans serve them because they’re given food, shelter, and desirable mates. They don’t even have the excuse of ignorance, with all the devil binding that goes on they have to know what happens after death to people with their fascist mentality.
But I’m speaking long-term and Dark Helmet was referring to tactics. What evidence is there that celestials won’t use guile? The sort of cliches Paizo works against?
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Having looked over the Empyreal and Demon Lords, I've got to agree with basically the entire first post with two minor exceptions:
1. Skill Points: Outsiders have 6+Int Mod skill points per HD. Most Outsiders put those into 6+Int Mod skills (maxing them all), but there's nothing wrong with spreading them out a bit more as, say, Korada does.
2. Size: Both Korada (who actually has Shapechange) and Cernunnos (who has Alter Self) can casually be Medium if they like. The Large version is their true, Godly form, which seems like it should indeed be at least Large.
That said, let's do some very basic examinations:
Cernunnos: 663 HP, 48 AC, +31 high save, +25 low saves (which he has two of, despite Outsider giving two good saves), +49 to hit (105 damage) or +40 to hit (195 damage), Save DC 17-24(!), 173 total points in stats.
Pazuzu: 752 HP, 48 AC, +35 high save, +31 low saves, +54/49 to hit (169 damage*) or +45/40 to hit (286*), Save DC 27-31, 213 total points in stats.
CR 30 Default: 760 HP, 48 AC, +31 High Save, +26 low save, +33 to +41 to hit (185-255 damage), Save DC 29-35. No stat point total specified.
So, Pazuzu is slightly low on HP, high on saves, attack and damage, and middling on Save DC.
Cernunnos meanwhile, is a bit low on saves, barely makes it into high hit and low damage when using Deadly Aim, is almost 100 HP down, and has something like 10 points too low a Save DC. That's...a really sad comparison.
I guess you could argue he's got DR and other advantages...but so does Pazuzu.
The CR 29 defaults actually look a lot closer to Cernunnos's stats, but even there, his Save DC is ridiculously pathetic. In fact, let's look at some CR 29 stats, shall we?
Cernunnos: 663 HP, 48 AC, +31 high save, +25 low saves (which he has two of, despite Outsider giving two good saves), +49 to hit (105 damage) or +40 to hit (195 damage), Save DC 17-24(!), 173 total points in stats.
Hastur: 731 HP, 48 AC, +27 to +29 on all saves, +41 to hit (64 damage, 204 w/Sneak Attack), Save DC 28-32, or 40 for SA, 213 total points in stats.
CR 29 Default: 720 HP, 47 AC, +30 High Save, +25 low save, +32 to +40 to hit (175-240 damage), Save DC 28-34. No stat point total specified.
So...yeah, that comparison isn't looking too hot for Cernunos either. The respective abilities make it even worse, actually.
Maybe CR 28?
Cernunnos: 663 HP, 48 AC, +31 high save, +25 low saves (which he has two of, despite Outsider giving two good saves), +49 to hit (105 damage) or +40 to hit (195 damage), Save DC 17-24(!), 173 total points in stats.
Dagon: 676 HP, 46 AC, +37 high save, +24 low save, +48/43 to hit (98 damage, plus Constrict for 32, so 130), +39/34 to hit (211 including Constrict), Save DC 24-29, 211 stat points.
CR 28 Default: 680 HP, 46 AC, +29 High Save, +24 low save, +31 to +39 to hit (165-225 damage), Save DC 27-33. No stat point total specified.
Wow, we've finally gotten to the point where Cernunnos is still outmatched, but by a reasonable amount within a CR. At 2 CRs below his own. Yeah. And the critter's still got 40 stat points on him. This is seriously just sad. Again, you can try and cite special stuff...but it's not any better on that font either, really.
Let's try CR 27, just for the hell of it:
Cernunnos: 663 HP, 48 AC, +31 high save, +25 low saves (which he has two of, despite Outsider giving two good saves), +49 to hit (105 damage) or +40 to hit (195 damage), Save DC 17-24(!), 173 total points in stats.
Bokrug: 645 HP, 45 AC, +33 high save, +22 low save, +44/39 to hit (170 damage, 206 with constrict, which is actually rare this time), +36/31 to hit (290 damage, make that 350 with constrict), Save DC 23-26 or 41 with its poison, 188 stat points.
CR 27 Default: 640 HP, 45 AC, +28 High Save, +23 low save, +30 to +38 to hit (155-210 damage), Save DC 26-32. No stat point total specified.
Okay,this one legitimately has less HP and AC, but either better attacks or nearly double the damage and much better Save DCs. Yeah...this looks at least as close as Dagon did...so he's a strong CR 27 or a weak CR 28, stat-wise. That's...really pathetic. And Bokrug still has more stats, too.
Even assuming Bokrug's overpowered, just looking at the default stats, Cernunnos is better off defensively, but only by a couple of points,is right on par offensively, and still stupidly low in regards to Save DCs.
I'm tired so I'm not doing this for Vildeis tonight, and I actually would bet that Korada fares slightly better for his supposed CR (he might actually deserve his listed CR, and almost certainly deserves a 25)...but I think the point's made that something is notably wrong here.
*These numbers assume his stats simply forgot the halved damage on natural attacks for using a manufactured weapon.
Creative Director
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In hindsight, I probably should have been the one to design the 3 Empyreal Lords, I suppose... not because I think they're designed wrong at all, but because since I designed all the other high CR foes in the book (by which I mean CR 26 and higher), I was able to bring the same design philosophies and practices to the great old ones, kaiju, and demon lords.
The fact that the Empyreal Lords were designed by a different designer in parallel to my designs for the other nine high CR foes is what basically lies at the heart of the differences folks are seeing.
So, it's NOT a conspiracy against the Empyreal Lords, and I've CERTAINLY heard the complaints and, in the future when we stat more of them up, I'll be making sure to communicate my design philosophies to whoever stats them or develops them.
It's also something that isn't really appropriate for errata to fix, since what folks are asking for is a complete redesign, it sounds like. Actual errors in the statblock are errata to be handled later, of course.
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In hindsight, I probably should have been the one to design the 3 Empyreal Lords, I suppose... not because I think they're designed wrong at all, but because since I designed all the other high CR foes in the book (by which I mean CR 26 and higher), I was able to bring the same design philosophies and practices to the great old ones, kaiju, and demon lords.
The fact that the Empyreal Lords were designed by a different designer in parallel to my designs for the other nine high CR foes is what basically lies at the heart of the differences folks are seeing.
So, it's NOT a conspiracy against the Empyreal Lords, and I've CERTAINLY heard the complaints and, in the future when we stat more of them up, I'll be making sure to communicate my design philosophies to whoever stats them or develops them.
It's also something that isn't really appropriate for errata to fix, since what folks are asking for is a complete redesign, it sounds like. Actual errors in the statblock are errata to be handled later, of course.
Any chance we might see Zohls (the empyreal lord) ever stated? At the moment she's my favorite.
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In hindsight, I probably should have been the one to design the 3 Empyreal Lords, I suppose... not because I think they're designed wrong at all, but because since I designed all the other high CR foes in the book (by which I mean CR 26 and higher), I was able to bring the same design philosophies and practices to the great old ones, kaiju, and demon lords.
The fact that the Empyreal Lords were designed by a different designer in parallel to my designs for the other nine high CR foes is what basically lies at the heart of the differences folks are seeing.
So, it's NOT a conspiracy against the Empyreal Lords, and I've CERTAINLY heard the complaints and, in the future when we stat more of them up, I'll be making sure to communicate my design philosophies to whoever stats them or develops them.
That makes sense! Thanks for the explanation. :)
It's also something that isn't really appropriate for errata to fix, since what folks are asking for is a complete redesign, it sounds like. Actual errors in the statblock are errata to be handled later, of course.
Hmmmm...maybe just adjust their CR to reflect their actual capabilities? That way at least people won't use them in ways their capabilities don't warrant. That seems within the scope of Errata, unlike a full re-stat.
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Assuming you’re not in a Way of the Wicked-style game, one reason empyreals may oppose the PCs is out of simple disagreement. For example, Cernunnos could be fighting for nature a bit too hard, Korada could oppose whatever violence the PCs are up to, and Patch wrote a whole article on Vildeis.
Not to derail this really detailed thread, but thanks for the shout-out, AlgaeNymph! I'll get to Cernunnos and Korada when I swing back around to the top of the alphabet.
Also, as a being "who embodies the primeval force of nature as well as its wildness," Cernunnos might cross swords with PCs for any number of reasons. They might wander into his territory during a particular hunting season or a certain bloody liminal night, unknowingly marking themselves as fair game despite their intelligence and good intentions. Or he may have assumed the portfolio of some older, darker horned god of hunting (a Golarion analogue for Herne the Hunter for instance) and that aspect might sometimes need to be exercised. Or he might hunt the PCs to test their mettle or throw another Power off the scent (the Erlking does something similar to Harry Dresden in Cold Days). Plus, the description flat-out says "he occasionally lets anger overwhelm his better judgment"—so woe betide the PC who insults him or who has previously accepted the offer of aid (however temporary and mindful of the strings attached) from some infernal duke.
And combat doesn't have to mean "to the death." Korada "has a mischievous side and has been known to poke fun at or harass his opponents like a capricious monkey." He practically begs to be used as the great grandmaster in disguise who humbles the mighty high-level/ mythic PC in an informal bout. Odin was renowned for visiting homes in disguise to see that the customs of hospitality were maintained...why not also Korada asking PCs if they will share their fire (or at high levels, the comfort of their extradimensional hut)?
So yeah, there are lots of reasons you might need the stat block of even the goodliest empyreal lord...
It's also something that isn't really appropriate for errata to fix, since what folks are asking for is a complete redesign, it sounds like.
Paladin Smite was a redesign too. Crane Wing... etc.
Barring that, it seems like a good idea if they show up in any adventures (as allies or foes), for something to be done to up their "oomph" factor, like adding class levels and stat points without modifying their effective CR.
They completely rewrote smite evil?
Why'd that get nerfed? :P
Not to derail this really detailed thread, but thanks for the shout-out, AlgaeNymph!Assuming you’re not in a Way of the Wicked-style game, one reason empyreals may oppose the PCs is out of simple disagreement. For example, Cernunnos could be fighting for nature a bit too hard, Korada could oppose whatever violence the PCs are up to, and Patch wrote a whole article on Vildeis.
You're quite welcome. It's only fair I reciprocate the attention you gave me. :)
However, if it's not too much trouble, would teach me how to properly use a comma? I'm never sure if I'm doing it quite right. I also like having a full length of intestines, it keeps me from starving and dehydrating.
Oh, and somebody wants permission to tweak around with the spreadsheet. May I know who?
Minor two cents opinion, while Korada seems like he ought to usually be medium, Cernunnos seems like a Large kind of guy to me.
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It's also something that isn't really appropriate for errata to fix, since what folks are asking for is a complete redesign, it sounds like.Paladin Smite was a redesign too. Crane Wing... etc.
Barring that, it seems like a good idea if they show up in any adventures (as allies or foes), for something to be done to up their "oomph" factor, like adding class levels and stat points without modifying their effective CR.
Paladin smite and crane wing's fixes were included because the design team felt they needed fixes to address significant flaws in the rules that were open to abuse.
I can't imagine that the stat blocks for some CR 26+ monsters would come into play nearly as often as a 1st level paladin ability or a feat.
That said... if the design team thinks it's important enough to "fix" those stat blocks, they'll tackle it during the errata. I strongly suspect that they won't feel it's as big a deal as some folks here seem to think it is, though.
Minor two cents opinion, while Korada seems like he ought to usually be medium, Cernunnos seems like a Large kind of guy to me.
I concur here. Cernunnos is very much a figure of untamed male power in legend, so Large seems right. Although in myth he always seems more like Neutral than good to me (or even shading into evil).
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Me again, with some clarification.
While I never meant to imply that Paizo was biased against empyreal lords in the initial write-up, though it’s perfectly understandable how one would get that impression, I am concerned that there’ll be bias against them in future write-ups. My main concern is that the less-intelellctual among the demon lords will get better mental stats (if not overall stats) than the less-intelellctual among the empyreal lords. To put it in blunter terms, why (to use a drastic example) does Kostchtchie get to be so much smarter than Cernunnos?
Yes, my phrasing was clunky. I could have said the “the thuggish” rather than “less-intelellctual among the” but that was interpreted as an attack against ALL demon lords (i.e., that I was implying that all demons are chaotic stupid) rather than referring to the relative brutes among them. That defensiveness is how I feel about empyreal lords.
Also, I’m not insisting on a complete redesign; the main things are that the spell-like abilities need standardization and the mental ability scores need a boost, everything else I mentioned falls into “good to have.”
Lastly…
That said... if the design team thinks it's important enough to "fix" those stat blocks, they'll tackle it during the errata. I strongly suspect that they won't feel it's as big a deal as some folks here seem to think it is, though.
While Deadmanwalking’s post presents evidence that there is a problem, I am curious to see what the design team has to say and would very much like to see them reply in this thread. Maybe then I’ll get a better understanding of what their design philosophy behind empyreal lords would be.
Regardless, I think it’d be a good idea for us to continue giving feedback and that we should be encouraged to do so.
Good post. Fixing mental ability scores and SLA DC's is an "easy", direct fix that doesn't disrupt things anymore than fixing a type-o would. Maybe that still wouldn't be perfect or ideal, but it's 80% there.
I'm glad to know from James' post that they don't intent on continuing this trend with future Empyreal Lord stats... Although if they don't fix the current ones, it will end up making the current ones on par with colleagues 2 CR lower than them.
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Good post. Fixing mental ability scores and SLA DC's is an "easy", direct fix that doesn't disrupt things anymore than fixing a type-o would. Maybe that still wouldn't be perfect or ideal, but it's 80% there.
This is mostly true of Wis (though that does effect Will Save, too) and Chr, but sadly not of Int, due to skills. Both the others effect skill bonuses, but each +2 Int also gives 30+ skill ranks...which is tricky to errata in.
Adding one more maxed Skill for each +2 INT, or 'fixing' non-maxed Skills doesn't seem worse than errating a normal type-o in Skill calculations. /shrug
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Not to derail this really detailed thread, but thanks for the shout-out, AlgaeNymph!Assuming you’re not in a Way of the Wicked-style game, one reason empyreals may oppose the PCs is out of simple disagreement. For example, Cernunnos could be fighting for nature a bit too hard, Korada could oppose whatever violence the PCs are up to, and Patch wrote a whole article on Vildeis.
You're quite welcome. It's only fair I reciprocate the attention you gave me. :)
However, if it's not too much trouble, would teach me how to properly use a comma? I'm never sure if I'm doing it quite right. I also like having a full length of intestines, it keeps me from starving and dehydrating.
Oh, and somebody wants permission to tweak around with the spreadsheet. May I know who?
You're over-using commas when you should be using colons but your punctuation is in the right place.
It has come to my attention that I forgot to correctly set the viewing options for my spreadsheet, such that people had to get my permission before viewing it. And here I thought they wanted to edit it (that's why I wanted names first before giving permission). I have fixed this now.
I imagine that the Empyreal Lords don't need to be as powerful as their fiendish equivalents.
Being good, they have the loyal, devoted support of an army of minions, whereas evil beings must struggle constantly against others of their kind to maintain their positions since the evil realms are a savage dog-eats-dog environment.
The problem with that argument is that it's stated that every major evil outsider faction (namely, the devils, daemons and demons) outnumber the entire Celestial Host by themselves, possibly by a significant margin. And that's not even counting the kytons, the divs, the qlippoth and all the other evil outsider factions into the equation.
With such a massive numbers disadvantage, I don't care how disunited you try to present the forces of evil, the continued survival of the Celestial Host beggars belief if all the Empyreal Lords are a bunch of lightweights compared to their evil counterparts. Even the demon lords are capable of cooperation against a common enemy, after all - some even have longstanding alliances with each other. And if Asmodeus tells the forces of Hell it's time to gear up for war, no one in Hell has anywhere near the brimstones to argue with him.
So either the forces of evil are so monumentally stupid that they can't just put things on hold for a few minutes to play a rousing game of "exterminate the angels" before returning to their regularly scheduled infighting, or the forces of good in the outer planes are so inconsequential as to not even be worth putting serious effort into destroying, neither of which has good implications.
Sorry for the necromancy but did anyone ever redesign the six Empyreal Lords featured in both Bestiaries to make them more comparable to fiends of their CR?
can we also get Cernnunos as a deific obedience and favored weapons too?
can we also get clear errata to state that classes that utilize any "-obedience" feat allow for the emperyeal lords as well as deities?
these may seem like trivial things but they're pretty important to the people who care
Oh for sure we need those. I even asked James Jacobs in his thread about the absence of boons for cernunos (CR 30!), and he replied saying it's probably from some miscommunication between the designers (in the CotR he is listed as a minor empyreal lord. Yeah).
Ps: cernunos's favired weapon is the club.
Oh for sure we need those. I even asked James Jacobs in his thread about the absence of boons for cernunos (CR 30!), and he replied saying it's probably from some miscommunication between the designers (in the CotR he is listed as a minor empyreal lord. Yeah).
Ps: cernunos's favired weapon is the club.
woah it is? do you have a source for that? because if there are things for it I would love to see them. even if Paizo just put it up online because it's been like a 6-year haitus on any material released for him and he seemed like he could easily be one of the very popular empyeral lords if he'd ever gotten anything other than his single bestiary entry...
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Sorry for the necromancy-
Don't be; I want this thread active.
And no, I haven't gotten to the other Empyreal lords yet. I've...felt kinda "why bother?" about it, mainly due to James taking a dismissive attitude towards my concerns, likely due to toxic criticism burnout in general. Seeing others boldly stating "good is dumb" also didn't help.
Oh, and thanks for the counterargument, Leingod. I'll be sire to link back to it in the future. (:
Look, empyreal lords are supposed to make good look cool, and it's hard to do that with stats that aren't on par with demon lords. Paizo's (infamously) about social justice but that takes more than acknowledging QUILTBAG people exist; we need paragons of righteousness to look admirable rather than repulsive. We'd get a lot less "good is dumb" of we have good represented by characters more likable than practical expys of Tess & Monica.
Touched by an Angel featuring Lym & Arshea looks like much more fun, no?