It would depend on the Feat, and it would depend on the person learning it. Like, a Fighter learning how to fight with two weapons, I could see it. A Wizard learning how to become Hulk Hogan, I'd be a bit more skeptical.
Unless the character who was actually Hulk Hogan decided to teach him, then I could buy it.
It would depend on the Feat, and it would depend on the person learning it. Like, a Fighter learning how to fight with two weapons, I could see it. A Wizard learning how to become Hulk Hogan, I'd be a bit more skeptical.
Unless the character who was actually Hulk Hogan decided to teach him, then I could buy it.
But then we're getting into even more complexity. Plus - why does it make sense (aside from balance) that a cleric who gets their spells from a deity would not be able to cast new spells? Or a witch - they get everything from their patron? How far do you want to go with justification by each class?
I see the lure of having a system like this - though I would not want to deal with it as a DM until I get a lot more experience at the basic stuff of designing adventures. Having to admit that I screwed up the pacing and everyone has leveled twice while stuck in the dungeon of doom (TM) would really be a problem - I wouldn't want to punish my players for my mistake as DM and wouldn't want the extra work of determining beforehand if a plot would have issues (basically what thejeff said above).
...It'll work fine if all your adventure arcs are less than one level long. But as I said before, even most published expect you to gain a couple levels in play.
In many years of gaming, I've never had a DM actually run a module at the table, but I have seen them implement training enjoyably (and, on occasion, really poorly.)
As fond as I am of well-told stories that include training, I can totally see how it might suck for tables telling a story off the shelf.
"Whelp, better leave the dungeon and spend a couple weeks back in town to train so we'll be able to handle the nasties we've heard rumors of further in. Hope they aren't able to fortify themselves too much before we get back."
Yeah. That would be the choice. Press on and level later, or retreat and level and give the enemy time to recover.
Ah yes, the classic "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" dilemma. Not too bad if it's another fight or two. Pretty sucky if it's multiple sessions later.
Made even worse if there's some kind of in game pressure to continue. Rescue the dragon, stop the BBEG before he finishes the ritual, etc.
You know, actual interesting motives for adventure besides "Those guys over there look like they might have good stuff we can take."
Definitely. And personally, I think the game is at its best when it's "pretty sucky", but I know I might be in the minority on that one, ha ha ha.
what about really passive and possibly intuitive feats, such as toughness? weapon finesse? dervish dance? open minded? power attack? pirahna strike? improved initiative? weapon focus in a weapon you used frequently in the dungeon? or iron will?IF you wanted to be serious about it, you'd divide what you get automatically by leveling and what you'd need training to improve.
For instance, for general characters, you don't get the bonus feat 1/2 levels without seeing a trainer.
You don't gain any additional class features or special powers.
Spellcasters wouldn't gain access to the next level of spells, but could improve their current ones as they wished. They shouldn't learn any new spells, either...if the fighters can't get feats, the casters shouldn't get spells.Your BAB, Saves, and hit dice would all improve without a problem, as would caster level, pools of stuff you already can do (rage rounds, bardic music rounds, ki points, etc). So you'd be better, more experienced, and tougher...but you wouldn't have the KNOWLEDGE and extra tricks.
But all that would require work and realism. Not exactly great lures in a game.
===Aelryinth
See, I love, love, love this ideas, they're great.
Because, like, say you're a Rogue, and your party has been sleeping in a dungeon because it's gonna take a week to clear it out. Where in the hell did you learn how to shoot a firearm, or how to fly a dragon, or how to communicate with an underwater whatever? You'd get better at doing what you're doing right now, but you'd need to go elsewhere to learn the new stuff.
Who says passive feats don't require intensive training and discipline to put into effect and keep going?
Toughness may require intense directed fighting and focused athletic endeavors, along with repeated healing.Weapon finesse is a completely unnatural healing style for humans and would require intensive retraining of basic combat manuvers. This is doubled by Dervish Dance, which also requires intensive mastery of the scimitar and a one handed fighting style. Piranha Strike, ditto, using coordination instead of power for power attacking? totally non-instinctive. Training mandatory.
Improved initiative? Living on a hair trigger?
Weapon Focus? Picking up a random weapon and suddenly you can use it better then your own hand? It's a next step beyond proficiency, an intense focus on a single weapon beyond just being able to use something without penalty.
And exactly how do you develop an iron will? Resistance training. You have to withstand stuff directed at your will, or exercise it in some other manner, since you can't exercise it spellcasting like casters do.
No, suddenly developing this kind of stuff out of nowhere isn't easy.
As for why clerics wouldn't suddenly get that new level of spells...they don't know the prayers. Why would you teach the prayers requesting 4th level spells to a 5th level cleric who can't use them? They don't have the power to even understand or use them properly. When they reach the level they can use them, they are initiated into a higher order of more powerful servants of a deity.
Now, spon casters may suddenly and abruptly find new doors opening in their minds. Or maybe they have to undertake a period of deep meditation or mind-opening training to unlock the new powers within them. Who knows?
training is realistically far more justifiable and realistic then suddenly bing! You know something that requires scores of hours of practice and rehearsal without any input from someone else who knows what you're trying to learn.
==Aelryinth
OF course, you could just say that learning new things is just another magical effect of leveling, and you're tapping into the akashic overmind with your new power and bing! you do indeed learn stuff that fast and easy.
Not much different then any other kind of magic, actually.
==Aelryinth
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or muy thai where you slam your body parts and get slammed by sticks for hours on end to toughen you up. Some even go so far as to sever nerves in their legs so they can hit harder and not feel the pain.
Or get tied to a rack and have coconuts dropped onto you from thirty feet in the air. So much of training is time, sweat and repetition, not bing! Inspiration.
But if magic can make you fly, I equally suppose it can make you incredibly tougher in a very short period of time, too.
We'll just call it 'Circumventing the training montage -Ex'.
==Aelryinth
But all that would require work and realism.
Not realistic.
No, suddenly developing this kind of stuff out of nowhere isn't easy.
It's not out of "no-where". You are learning by doing and in your off hours.
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Without a trainer, meaning you're just kind of vaguely experimenting and covering ground others already have.
It's a hand-wave over reality. Just accept it and move on.
==Aelryinth
I am a expert in anti-money laundering. Not only did I teach myself, I have "taught the teachers". I do go to occasional industry seminars- partly to teach, partly to network, and yes, a little to see what others are doing.
I have never actually had a day of formal training- I am the one doing the training. By the training rules I'd both be 1st level and the guy the epic adventurer goes to for training.
WHO TRAINS the TRAINERS?
The egg trained them.
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I am a expert in anti-money laundering. Not only did I teach myself, I have "taught the teachers". I do go to occasional industry seminars- partly to teach, partly to network, and yes, a little to see what others are doing.
I have never actually had a day of formal training- I am the one doing the training. By the training rules I'd both be 1st level and the guy the epic adventurer goes to for training.
WHO TRAINS the TRAINERS?
It's a bit of a fraught comparison though. It's not like you did this in a vacuum, right?
If you had first invented the concept of money laundering, that would be more relevant to pathfinder, I think.
Being self-taught in the information age is not quite the same thing thing as being self-taught in the iron age (or the pathfinder equivalent). I'm not trying to denigrate your achievement or call your expertise into question, but there's definitely a difference.
Some skills/abilities in the pathfinder context are just begging for a trainer to make sense of them. Others not.
Again though, a hand-wave certainly will suffice unless the DM can make training interesting enought to keep the players engaged.