Goblin Squad Member
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Halt should be the base ability for stand and deliver. It would be non-alignment based and available to every class. At the base level it would be a ranged ability that makes your character shout a very audible "Halt!" accompanied by an audio/visual component such as a buzz and a brief reddening of the screen (or blueing of the screen if you are authorized to issue halts by the hex owners) for the target of the halt.
From that point on the target would have a set ammount of time they could continue moving before they get the "resisting" flag. This grants you the right to kill them without reputation loss and if the halt was lawful it also negates alignment drift. You are also immediately flagged as hostile to the target / their social circle if not an authorized agent of the hex where the halt was issued. You also receive a criminal flag if unauthorized halts are outlawed in the hex where you issue it.
If the target stops you have a set ammount of time to take one of the following actions or else they get to move on:
-Stand and Deliver: This allows you to inspect the carried items of the player and demand a portion of them. If the target complies then they may leave immediately and gets the "robbed" condition for five minutes. During these 5 minutes new SADs may not be issued and rep loss for killing them is multiplied. If they refuse the get the "resisting" flag. SADs are always a chaotic act. Any goods taken through SADs are flagged as "stolen" for 24 hours.
-Inspection: The inspection is both a tool for local authorities and vigilante justice seekers so it may or may not be a chaotic act depending on where it is issues. During an inspection you can.
• Demand stolen goods.
• Demand any contraband (Authorized agents only), free or sieze any slaves discovered, and destroy any items associated with opposing alignments.
• Collect any outstang fines. (Authorized agents only)
• Demand lawful taxes and tolls. (Authorized agents only) Doing so gives them an item they can present to other inspectors to show they have already done so, disabling the use of this option again until that item expires.
You may resist inspections as you would a SAD if the inspector tries to do something you aren't ok with. This may give you chaotic points if the inspector is authorized. SADs can be tacked on to unlawful inspections.
As you level up a halt it becomes a spell like ability that can gain access to the following benefits:
• Longer range.
• Breaks the target out of fast travel.
• Puts an increasingly potent slowdown effect on the target.
Finally, halts cannot be issued to someone who is already involved in a halt action.
Assist is a targeted ability you can use on anyone by characters of any alignment. When an assist is issued there is a brief fanfare and greening of the screen followed by a pop up (at the bottom right of the GUI by default) that asks if you would like to accept the assist. You can either manually click yes or no, bind hotkeys to those option or set youself to automatically accept or reject all assist requests. Default for new characters is set to auto-accept all but they are made aware of this during their starter quests.
When you assist someone you are treated as a member if their group for the purposes of sharing beneficial effects and who is marked as hostile to you. It goes without saying you are also penalized for their behaviors the same way you are if you heal / buff etc. someone who commits a misdeed. Unlike grouping with them however, they do not share hostility with targets who are hostile to you. Also, should you attack them or one of their group members the assist condition immediately ends and you are assessed a significant rep penalty.
The benefits you can get for training in assists depend a lot on your class but may include things such as:
• Increased health regeneration on the target.
• Redirection of a portion of the damage the target receives to you.
• Damage reduction.
• Immunity to your AoEs or transfer of your AoE damage from them and their party members to you. (Thus avoiding accidental betrayal.)
• Running or attack speed buffs.
The assist condition immediately end if you leave the area of the target. You may only assist one target at a time. Assists can be used to buff players who are already in your party.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TL:DR
The "halt" mechanic is introduced as way of stopping moving players , and removing the rep penalty from killing those who resist. Within the halt mechanic is the SAD for robbery, and the inspection for legal tolls/taxes, collecting fines, recovering stolen goods, inspecting for contraband etc
The assist mechanic is introduced as a way to quickly join another player's group for the purpose of assisting them against danger. Unlike actual grouping it only flags their hostiles to you, it does not flag them to your hostiles, so they don't have to waste time deciding whether or not they can trust you. The only reason to decline is if they don't want you attacking their hostiles.
Both are activated abilities that require a slot (likely a utility slot) and both can be upgraded through training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First I am reading this with an open mind, but it is lengthy so I'll focus in one or two points at a time.
First: "You are also immediately flagged as hostile to the target / their social circle if not an authorized agent of the hex where the halt was issued."
This allows "authorized agents" the ability to freely attack anyone, and their own social circle will not see the attacker as hostile.
The one thing that Ryan has made clear. If someone is hostile to you, those in your social circle will see them hostile as well.
This as written would put incredible power in the hands of "authorized agents" who would halt and kill everyone with out consequences, enforcing an NBSI policy of a settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I tend to support the ability to enforce NBSI around a settlement, even if I do not wish to be part of a group that practices it. In a well-designed system, such a xenophobic society should encounter a number of other problems. The Halt mechanic would need a lot of playtesting and iteration to ensure it cannot be abused too much, however - for example Halting a group and making an unreasonable demand (albeit slowly) as a way to run down a timer for your reinforcements to arrive because maybe they were spread out in a net formation to maximize the potential catch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is not just the support for the NBSI part, it is that the Halt function severs the social contract within the player grouping.
The whole purpose of player grouping is to provide unified protection of the members of the group. Essentially, you don't just attack one, you attack all within the social group.
This will be exploited (not in the Eula) sort if way, but in an intelligent way and used by everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First: "You are also immediately flagged as hostile to the target / their social circle if not an authorized agent of the hex where the halt was issued."
I take this that the reverse is also true.... If an authorized agent, then the social circle will not see him as hostile.
Perhaps the wording is giving the wrong impression.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, I suppose I did not read this into the mechanic. I thought it implied that if an agent stopped a caravan to impose a tax, the caravan merchants and guards would see the agent and their group as hostiles and vice-versa.
You wouldn't see them as hostile until you got the resisting flag. Nobody would, not even the player being inspected. It's your routine trafic stop or someone saying "tickets please." It doesn't authorize them to kill you unless you try to run or refuse the terms of the inspection. They can only do this inside a hex they control or where the hex owners have given them the rights. And you they can only enforce their tax/toll policies, sieze/destroy contraband, or collect outstanding fines.
If NBSI is allowed (which it should be) it would be under a separate mechanic such as trespassing.
Anyway, I don't care much either way. It just seemed like making it so you can shotgun a law-enforcer in the face consequence free for asking you to pull over (figurative speaking) would be a tad bit odd... but it's not really toxic so I don't care that much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This mechanic is absolutely necessary. I remember learning the "HALT! Who goes there?" protocols when I was in the Army. Its a good idea.
In games where you can not physically stop players, the only way to stop them becomes killing them. And when you cant physically stop people without killing them, then you don't get conversations, dialog or any kind of verbal interaction (just running/striking/chasing). The verbal interaction occurs later after the action is over via private messages or forum bashing.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It seems like you should be able to run away from the law at no rep penalty (possibly a chaotic shift for committing a crime?), making yourself hostile to them and being allowed to attack first without additional effects.
Your immediate group would have to decide if they wanted to join you, committing the same crimes, or break group.
I think assistance would best be done by allowing any character to (perhaps with permission) gain all (but not any smaller subset) of the involvement statuses of another nearby character, along with the reputation and alignment shifts that they got for getting those statuses. When a traveler gets ambushed by a murderer and calls for help from anybody, the nearby bandit company should be allowed to step in and kill the attempted murderer 'for free', but anyone who steps in on the side of the murderer should not be able to do so 'for free'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, what I do not like about it is that there is no recourse for those being halted, and no penalty for falsely/failing to halt someone...or even just an outright cost for using the ability (such as rep or influence, I know halting me is goign to cost you both in metagame).
I get what you're saying but this a problem also presented by the mere existence if the SAD so it's important to note it's not a downside to this proposal, it's a bug already inherent in the system that this proposal doesn't address.
With that said, if you have a solution I'm very open to discussing it here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, what I do not like about it is that there is no recourse for those being halted, and no penalty for falsely/failing to halt someone...or even just an outright cost for using the ability (such as rep or influence, I know halting me is goign to cost you both in metagame).I get what you're saying but this a problem also presented by the mere existence if the SAD so it's important to note it's not a downside to this proposal, it's a bug already inherent in the system that this proposal doesn't address.
With that said, if you have a solution I'm very open to discussing it here.
Honestly, I think the whole problem is the Cost Free aspect. If it costs nothing to offer the Halt, then it is easy to abuse. There has to be some controlling elements. Feuds cost Influence, Wars cost DI, Factions require your opponents to opt into PvP Factions. SAD/Halt is the only mechanic that seems to avoid the Cost scenario completely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly, I think the whole problem is the Cost Free aspect. If it costs nothing to offer the Halt, then it is easy to abuse. There has to be some controlling elements. Feuds cost Influence, Wars cost DI, Factions require your opponents to opt into PvP Factions. SAD/Halt is the only mechanic that seems to avoid the Cost scenario completely.
The SAD has a cost, the bandit is giving up the advantage of surprise (ambush) in order to issue a SAD. That is no small cost if the caravan has guards, the merchant rejects the offer, and a fight ensues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And a failed SAD has a Rep hit. What does a failed Halt look like? And, since you are proposing Halt as the foundation of SADing...can one Halt a Halt to come to aid of those being abused with Halts?
I'm not aware of SAD giving rep hits unless you kill someone after a successful one. Can you cite your source for this?
No, you cannot halt a halt. However you can use an assist on someone being halted, which is just as good or better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like Inspection, but again, you will likely be able to do that as part of the SAD mechanic. Also, it has not been confirmed, denied or TBD if there will be stolen tagged items.
I certainly hope there will be for items that can be uniquely identified (ie a crafted item with a crafter's mark). But, for resources (coal, iron ore, etc) it would make less sense and is probably not easy to program.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can just imagine the abuse such a mechanic would foster. It would be like being blocked in a doorway if there is collision detection, except it wouldn't even require a door. A gang of players 'halting' an innocent interminably trying to throw him into a rage is just one abuse among several.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can just imagine the abuse such a mechanic would foster. It would be like being blocked in a doorway if there is collision detection, except it wouldn't even require a door. A gang of players 'halting' an innocent interminably trying to throw him into a rage is just one abuse among several.
Again, that's not a problem that comes with this system. It's a problem with SADs in general. I think the easiest solution to that is if you don't start with the skill you'll have to buy training time to use it.
That's griefing, and griefing is a bannable offense.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yeah, what I do not like about it is that there is no recourse for those being halted, and no penalty for falsely/failing to halt someone...or even just an outright cost for using the ability (such as rep or influence, I know halting me is goign to cost you both in metagame).I get what you're saying but this a problem also presented by the mere existence if the SAD so it's important to note it's not a downside to this proposal, it's a bug already inherent in the system that this proposal doesn't address.
With that said, if you have a solution I'm very open to discussing it here.
Attach a (probably small) influence cost to issuing a halt order, as has been suggested for SAD?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What does this proposed system do, that you could not do with the SAD?
I'm sure this is the question that you would get from Stephen, because that is exactly the type of question he brought up when presented with the Apprehend mechanic.
This system is an expansion on SAD to make it more useful for those extra things you claim SAD should be used for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And a failed SAD has a Rep hit. What does a failed Halt look like? And, since you are proposing Halt as the foundation of SADing...can one Halt a Halt to come to aid of those being abused with Halts?
Halt should inherit the cooldown on the victim that SAD is supposed to get. What was it? For 20 minutes after a SAD you can't be reSADed?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not every system needs to be in as part of MVP. Not every use I've suggested may ever be part of PFO. It's the idea that asking someone to halt is not a chaotic action. Making SADs a sub-component of halt from the start opens it up for usage for a variety of other purposes as the game is expanded.
Heck, in your own territory you should be able to halt people for a minute or so just to figure out what they are doing there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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translating this into the game(this assumes that players wont have floating names and guild tags above their head, and takes place in a neutral territory):
1. player Z sees player/party X and targets them.
2. Z issues the HALT mechanic to X.(this breaks Z's stealth/invisibility if active). DOES NOT BREAK X's fast travel.
3. X can do anything they want, but there is an explicit comply option (identify or bluff/disguise if applicable) which states X's name and allegiance + halts movement.
4. IF X does not comply AND enters a hex Z threatens, THEN Z can attack X without rep loss and it breaks X's fast travel.
5. IF X does not comply and does not enter a hex Z threatens, then Z cannot attack X without rep loss.
6. IF X uses the comply action. Then X can not be attacked by Z or Z's party without rep loss until a command AND OR sense check is resolved ( here is the chance for X to gain the upper hand if wanted)
7. Z may then do a perception/sense motive check. IF Z discovers X to lie or be disguised, they can attack X freely.
8. ELSE Z must immediately issue an explicit command like SAD or automatically releases X from HALT.
9. GOTO SAD FUNCTION, ELSE RELEASE
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Goblin Squad Member
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And a failed SAD has a Rep hit. What does a failed Halt look like? And, since you are proposing Halt as the foundation of SADing...can one Halt a Halt to come to aid of those being abused with Halts?Halt should inherit the cooldown on the victim that SAD is supposed to get. What was it? For 20 minutes after a SAD you can't be reSADed?
I think the main issue with this is say you are a trader moving goods from Brighthaven to Golgotha. We'll say that trip will take 15-20 minutes. At the start of the trip a soldier of Brighthaven decides to check you for slaves and evil aligned object. None are found so he sends you on your merry way.
Along the way UNC attempt to stop and SAD you and Golgotha want to inspect you for good / chaotic items and / or charge you a toll. Neither can because Brighthaven wanted to do a legitimate inspection of your goods.
Something worth considering is a system where you can only be lawfully halted once in any controlled hex, and you can only be unlawfully halted once by any faction with a hideout in a hex. As in if there is a UNC bandit hideout, TEO vigilante hideout, and Tony's "bakery" hideout on a Pax controlled hex you could potentially be halted by all 4 groups. Pax could solve this problem by torching the hideouts though.
I realize that suggestion may seriously piss some people off, but I'd seriously like to see hideouts be a huge deal. It's partially a nerf to SADs in that it confines you to areas where you have hideouts, but it's also partially a buff in that it eliminates fake SADs to get SAD protection.
Andius, you seem to keep suggesting these complex systems to suit your personal desires for how you want to play the game. The game won't be able to accommodate everyone on whatever "role" they're interested in playing.
If you want to be the "Bandit-Hunter" good guy hero, let me suggest a couple alternatives:
1) Instead of using some complex system like you're talking about, just use the SAD system yourself on whoever
2) Instead of hunting bandits, why not hunt Low Rep toons instead? You'll suffer very little rep loss for killing someone with a rep of -6k or below, so why not just do that? These people are probably worse than bandits anyways to your imagined land where you've killed all the bad guys, and everything's flowers and butterflies. So just do that.
You may not be able to play your perfect style. But, there are workarounds to make it happen at least somewhat. The MMO has to be reasonable with what they accommodate, and give some breathing room to certain roles so that people can use them for different reasons (the SAD system being the main one).
Most of the systems aren't much more complex than what you'll find in every blog, and I'm allowed to make suggestions. I can use SADs sure. What if I was a paladin? Paladins do get to enforce the law and help people. This system provides for that . SADs don't.
\
Just play a Fighter, they don't suck as hard anyways. lulz
P.S: Paladins would never take the Vigilante role. You're forgetting the Lawful half of their alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eh. Paladins are beastly tanks. Heavy armor, self heals, and Divine Grace. That bonus to saves is amazing and will make them incredible in PVE. Once they implement mounted combat they'll be incredible heavy cavalry for PvP with Divine Bond. Not that the mechanics will transfer over directly but they'll probably get slightly altered versions of those abilities that share the same name.
No paladins wouldn't play a vigilante, but they would play a guardian or crusader.
Yea, the Primary Tank, Secondary Healer role makes them better tanks than most Fighters with the Primary Tank, Secondary DPS role, I'll give you that. Though for tanking straight magic-users, I'd prefer a Monk. In any case, SAD those SAD'ers, Andius. Make them SAD, and we'll make you SAD, while making everyone else SAD too. SAD the sheep, SAD the sheepdogs, SAD the weaker wolves, SAD the jackals, SAD the lambs. That's what I've always said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well if you break both the mechanic I suggested down to MVP versions you get to stop people using a system that I'm sure is similar to if not the same as what SADs already do without chaotic points if it's in your own hex, and you can use that to fire into things such as contraband inspections once contraband is implemented. For now you just attach the SAD. Not really any extra work for the time being.
The assist mechanic let's you quickly group up with someone for the purpose of helping them out in a sticky situation that calls for a quick response, but removes some of the traditional aspects of grouping such as them becoming hostile to players that are hostile to you. If also adds a few buffs. Also pretty simple.
If I was to sit here and describe probing or planetary interaction in EVE, the alignment system or taming in Mortal Online, the wound/healing system or priesthood in Wurm, or treasure maps or prowess in Darkfall in the same level of detail I do the systems I propose they would create equally big or much, much greater walls of text.
Sandboxes are much, much, much more complex games than theme parks. To put it bluntly they are catered to players who are generally more intelligent. (Which explains why they get so small when the Call of Duty type PvPers take over.)
This kind of stuff is pretty typical or even slightly simplistic for a sandbox.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And a failed SAD has a Rep hit. What does a failed Halt look like? And, since you are proposing Halt as the foundation of SADing...can one Halt a Halt to come to aid of those being abused with Halts?Halt should inherit the cooldown on the victim that SAD is supposed to get. What was it? For 20 minutes after a SAD you can't be reSADed?
Except again maybe I misread it, but to me what was said about the cooldown, it does not keep everyone from re-SADing you, only the bandit that just SADed you.
If the victim and Outlaw completed a stand-and-deliver trade, the Outlaw loses double reputation for killing the target within 20 minutes. (If they pay, you should let them go.)
The above quote is the foundation of this cooldown. It only applies to the specific bandit. To the best of my knowledge GW has never suggested an sort of global cooldown (correction quote welcomed).
@Andius, you are right about not loosing Rep, they just do not gain any.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would tie the sad skill to chaotic alignment and the "enforce" skill to lawful alignment and make them different skills. The enforce skill would just give the right to slaughter someone carrying saded/raided goods without rep/alignment shifts.
Though neutral should have something of their own... but what?
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Though neutral should have something of their own... but what?
OAR: Observe And Report
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Goblin Squad Member
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Except again maybe I misread it, but to me what was said about the cooldown, it does not keep everyone from re-SADing you, only the bandit that just SADed you.
At one point, there was a Fleeced flag that would apply after you were robbed that would stop others from robbing you for a time. Although the following quote doesn't make it explicit, it's fairly clear that the two situations Stephen is talking about (bolded below) are: 1) a number of hostile bandits serially robbing a single merchant, which they very much want to avoid; and 2) a number of friendly bandits serially robbing a single merchant for no gain just to apply the Fleeced flag, which they also want to avoid. Neither scenario would be worth discussing if the flag only applied to a single bandit.
In general, I think we're way more worried about "a half dozen guys work together to stop a single player and SAD him in sequence until he's bankrupt or cancels a trade and is therefore freely attackable" than we are organized groups of merchants moving from settlement to settlement and conspiring to get the Fleeced flag cheaply. The people most in danger from bandits are solo or small group explorers and resource gatherers out in the wilds trying to return home with full pockets, and they'll have a harder time arranging for their own bandit quisling when they need one. A "caravan" already implies a big enough group that they'll have other ways to deal with bandits other than exploiting the Fleeced flag.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would rather see the SAD mechanic as a catch all for all of these situations. First balanced though.
Robbery.
Interdiction in cases of faction, feud, and war.
Inspection or pursuit for contraband, but it only works if there IS contraband (or stolen goods) on board. In cases of pursuit for robbery, the bad guys are on a timer of vulnerability for it that can be sped up or eliminated if they enter a hideout.
Assume that I am a legit merchant or harvester/gatherer moving legitimate goods. Even if my entire journey is a 30 minute trek, I am going to get pretty frustrated if I am stopped, with this mechanism, 3 times or more every time that I move goods in a 30 minute stretch.
It doesn't sound like fun at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a reminder that (so far, caveats, yada yada) it's not the SAD that drops folks out of Fast Travel, it's the Hideout. Likewise, the Watch Tower was designed sort of as the other side of the Hideout coin, with the ability to detect interlopers. I hope that a lot of this functionality still requires structures.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem that I see with this, in the wild lands particularly, is that the only people that will obey a halt order are those not engaged in any criminal activity or the targets of bandits that are crazy enough to move goodies without protection.
For everyone else, legitimate or not seeking a fight, it is just a hassle. A hassle that is already existent with bandits and SAD.
I don't begrudge the owners of territory from wanting to stop and question people on their land, but I (as a merchant) can assure you that I will choose starting points, routes, and destinations where I am least likely to be hassled every time that I move goods through them.
Surely it could be set up with the owners of controlled hexes that they will not stop me EVERY time, but in the wilds, it will get pretty annoying if I am stopped all of the time by "good guys" as well as bandits. Especially if I am not doing anything "criminal" but they "just want to make sure".
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're a frequent traveller, you don't think you'll get to be known by the patrols? You build a rep with them and they'll trust you if you're an honest merchant. If you're being harrassed by bandits, they might even be willing to help you out with them.
I will give you that possibility. With everyone able to train the ability and a population that will (hopefully) exceed 100k, I think that it's value might end up diluted, however.
Edit: Nihimon's reminder that it may take a structure in the hex to employ such abilities could be a great help in that. I don't know if hideouts will be available for any except nefarious reasons and watchtowers in wild hexes (if possible) kinda make them "not wild"
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Goblin Squad Member
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It still comes down to the probability that only someone with nothing to hide or be held accountable for will obey a Halt command.
Couldn't all of it then be handled with flags? Criminal or hostile flags visible, contraband (if it exists) flags only visible if you have that watchtower in the hex?
Extending the Law into wild hexes, too much, seems counter to the idea of "WILD".
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Goblin Squad Member
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It still comes down to the probability that only someone with nothing to hide or be held accountable for will obey a Halt command.
Couldn't all of it then be handled with flags? Criminal or hostile flags visible, contraband (if it exists) flags only visible if you have that watchtower in the hex?
Extending the Law into wild hexes, too much, seems counter to the idea of "WILD".
You only get to enforce laws in your own territory if given proper authority. Outside of that, you have SADers instead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It still comes down to the probability that only someone with nothing to hide or be held accountable for will obey a Halt command.
Andius seems to have addressed this concern in his OP.
As you level up a halt it becomes a spell like ability that can gain access to the following benefits:
• Longer range.
• Breaks the target out of fast travel.
• Puts an increasingly potent slowdown effect on the target.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Other issues:
Assist
Assist is a targeted ability you can use on anyone by characters of any alignment. When an assist is issued there is a brief fanfare and greening of the screen followed by a pop up (at the bottom right of the GUI by default) that asks if you would like to accept the assist. You can either manually click yes or no, bind hotkeys to those option or set yourself to automatically accept or reject all assist requests. Default for new characters is set to auto-accept all but they are made aware of this during their starter quests.
When you assist someone you are treated as a member if their group for the purposes of sharing beneficial effects and who is marked as hostile to you. It goes without saying you are also penalized for their behaviors the same way you are if you heal / buff etc. someone who commits a misdeed. Unlike grouping with them however, they do not share hostility with targets who are hostile to you. Also, should you attack them or one of their group members the assist condition immediately ends and you are assessed a significant rep penalty.
1. I always find it suspect when some "election" is made and only overridden by an active Opt-out step.
2. What is to prevent someone with hostility flag, to jump into a grouping and be shielded by their not being seen as hostile to your pursuers?
I put those two together and see an exploit of using unsuspecting noobs as human shields to avoid the hostility state, or tying the hands of your pursuers from using AOEs or just simply attacking you while wading through a sea of blue noobs.