Halt / Assist


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Goblin Squad Member

If Nihimon is correct in that a hideout or watchtower is needed to break fast travel that could seriously change my entire perception of PFO. Basically what that would mean from my understanding is you don't even get the option to stop/rob people who don't go off the beaten path unless you control a hideout nearby.

They can still screw with you while you're out adventuring, but caravans and people making long distance journeys are off limits if the road is clean of hideouts.

Goblin Squad Member

First, why would use use AoE's to attack one guy anyways?

Second, if you aren't using AoE's, what benefit does someone get in a tab-target system for hiding in a group of non-hostiles? I could see the argument for avoiding their physical detection because your model is not rendered for them, but I'd expect a nameplate to still be visible (probably a hostile name plate is more visible than a nonhostile one, through a red outline or something of that sort).

Third, and probably most important, if you start attacking someone in the NPC starter town, regardless of whether the person is a noob or not, you'll be swarmed by NPC killbots.

So I don't see people exploiting the starting areas to attack each other.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
It still comes down to the probability that only someone with nothing to hide or be held accountable for will obey a Halt command.

Andius seems to have addressed this concern in his OP.

As you level up a halt it becomes a spell like ability that can gain access to the following benefits:

• Longer range.
• Breaks the target out of fast travel.
Puts an increasingly potent slowdown effect on the target.

I am not too concerned with the mechanics, although I don't think that he offered a cost or counter to it. I am concerned that it will be abused and annoying as heck for regular people doing business. I will guess that "regular and legitimate" business will be a significant proportion of the activity or we already have serious problems.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius wrote:

If Nihimon is correct in that a hideout or watchtower is needed to break fast travel that could seriously change my entire perception of PFO. Basically what that would mean from my understanding is you don't even get the option to stop/rob people who don't go off the beaten path unless you control a hideout nearby.

They can still screw with you while you're out adventuring, but caravans and people making long distance journeys are off limits if the road is clean of hideouts.

I'm still hoping they trash the idea of caravan fast travel, and make transporting goods a strictly avatar-based experience. Fast travel seems so lame, and so uninvolved for the merchants.

This is as long as I have the same understanding of fast travel that others do. Is fast travel meant to indicate an instant teleport, an increased speed on-rails wagon that you can't control, or something else?

Goblin Squad Member

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Yeah I kind of agree with that sentiment. I feel like they should make wagons the largest thing for transporting goods, and make them move quickly on roads / not even able to off road in a lot of situations, but control of them should be 100% manual.

Perhaps the way to stop them would be to set up a barricade, and you can't do that unless you either control the hex or have a hideout there.

For smugglers, there should always be the take a pack mule through the swamps option.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
If Nihimon is correct in that a hideout or watchtower is needed to break fast travel...

To be clear, I'm not sure that it's required, I was merely pointing out that breaking people out of Fast Travel was described as a feature of Hideouts. There might well be other ways, too.

Goblin Squad Member

Shane Gifford wrote:

I'm still hoping they trash the idea of caravan fast travel, and make transporting goods a strictly avatar-based experience. Fast travel seems so lame, and so uninvolved for the merchants.

This is as long as I have the same understanding of fast travel that others do. Is fast travel meant to indicate an instant teleport, an increased speed on-rails wagon that you can't control, or something else?

In general, fast travel in Pathfinder Online will not be instantaneous. Instead, characters that are using fast travel are assumed to be moving at a rate of up to five times normal speed (that is, 20 times real time). Traversing a hex at this rate requires less than a minute. During fast travel, you will not have to direct your character—it will simply move to the destination you've selected.

There's an entire section on Fast Travel at the bottom of that blog.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
SADs and Halt mechanisms are the sort of thing that sounds cool if it happens every now and then but will cause people to quit the game entirely if it happens every time they venture out of the city.

And that is my point. This mechanic would probably at least double your chances that you would be stopped.

You take the precautions (whatever they are), you guard your caravan well or bring some tough friends with you to harvest. Ok, you are a less attractive target to bandits. Now you have to be worried that you will be Halt ordered by someone just to check your inventory in the wilds, where there is no law?

If the area is controlled legitimately by a lawful agent, then fine. Otherwise don't hassle me unless I am flagged criminal, hostile, you want to rob me, or you want a fight with consequences.

And don't give anyone the power to do so out of the above contexts, because it will be used.

Annoying and "fun" draining.

Goblin Squad Member

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@Bringslite, I generally agree, which is why I hope the ability to break someone out of Fast Travel is tied to a nearby structure.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Andius wrote:
If Nihimon is correct in that a hideout or watchtower is needed to break fast travel...
To be clear, I'm not sure that it's required, I was merely pointing out that breaking people out of Fast Travel was described as a feature of Hideouts. There might well be other ways, too.

As I recall it was TDA whether or not SADs would be tied to hideouts or not. Same holds for if it is the SAD or the hideout that pulls someone out of fast travel.

I personally don't think that a SAD should require a hideout, or that only hideouts can pull you out of fast travel. Otherwise new player characters would be barred from starting out their career as bandits until such time that they construct a hideout.

Goblin Squad Member

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I don't recall the devs ever giving the impression that SADs would be tied to Hideouts. I also don't recall the devs ever giving the impression that you'd be able to break someone out of Fast Travel without using a Hideout to do so.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Andius wrote:
If Nihimon is correct in that a hideout or watchtower is needed to break fast travel...
To be clear, I'm not sure that it's required, I was merely pointing out that breaking people out of Fast Travel was described as a feature of Hideouts. There might well be other ways, too.

As I recall it was TDA whether or not SADs would be tied to hideouts or not. Same holds for if it is the SAD or the hideout that pulls someone out of fast travel.

I personally don't think that a SAD should require a hideout, or that only hideouts can pull you out of fast travel. Otherwise new player characters would be barred from starting out their career as bandits until such time that they construct a hideout.

Newby bandits should probably focus on newby harvesters and lone (non fast traveling merchants). It is a natural selection and "success = survival" thing isn't it?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I don't recall the devs ever giving the impression that SADs would be tied to Hideouts. I also don't recall the devs ever giving the impression that you'd be able to break someone out of Fast Travel without using a Hideout to do so.

Sorry my IPad autocorrected the wrong acronym... Not TDA..... Meant TBA or TBD.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:

If Nihimon is correct in that a hideout or watchtower is needed to break fast travel that could seriously change my entire perception of PFO. Basically what that would mean from my understanding is you don't even get the option to stop/rob people who don't go off the beaten path unless you control a hideout nearby.

They can still screw with you while you're out adventuring, but caravans and people making long distance journeys are off limits if the road is clean of hideouts.

Keep in mind that carry capacity is meant to be more limited. Fast travel seems an option for individuals, not for caravans, but I could be wrong. The spirit seems more about removing the tedium of crossing the map to play with your friends. If your goal is to move a vast amount of items from point A to point B to sell at a profit, then it makes sense to be subject to the standard environmental hazards inherent in slower travel. But if your goal is to meet up with some friends to go explore somewhere then you want the challenge to be in exploring and not in making your friends wait 20 minutes for you to cross a third of the map.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
Shane Gifford wrote:

I'm still hoping they trash the idea of caravan fast travel, and make transporting goods a strictly avatar-based experience. Fast travel seems so lame, and so uninvolved for the merchants.

This is as long as I have the same understanding of fast travel that others do. Is fast travel meant to indicate an instant teleport, an increased speed on-rails wagon that you can't control, or something else?

In general, fast travel in Pathfinder Online will not be instantaneous. Instead, characters that are using fast travel are assumed to be moving at a rate of up to five times normal speed (that is, 20 times real time). Traversing a hex at this rate requires less than a minute. During fast travel, you will not have to direct your character—it will simply move to the destination you've selected.

There's an entire section on Fast Travel at the bottom of that blog.

I've spoken opposition from that to the start and I'm still kind of behind that opposition.

Say Brighthaven, Phaeros, Callambea, Golgotha etc. are scattered all over the map. Pax is having a war with Shadowy Fiends From EVE. Shadowy Fiends From EVE lays siege to Callambea.

Within 20 minutes of that siege being laid armies from every major faction show up to support the sides they want to see win, or scroach the siege (Hang around and attack either side if they present a weakness to get their gear.)

I just really don't want to see that happen here. I would rather see a system where your relationship with your neighbors is incredibly important, and your relationship with the group on the opposite corner of the map really isn't that important. I'd rather have it so if you decide "I want to go to Mosswater!" and you live in Thornkeep, its a bit of an adventure, not just a 20 minute automated trip. I'd rather see resources that come from one area require quite a trip to transport to another.

I think the need for fast travel is something instilled in people who are coming from themeparks. In themeparks you have your different level areas, and your quests that take you all over the map and your buddies will be in a different location every time you log on.

That's not how it works in these types of games. In Wurm, I live in the Southwest corner of the Serenity map. I spend 90% plus of my time logged in the southwest corner of the Serenity map. I can face anything from pigs to trolls, to PvP raiders in the southwest corner of the Serenity map.

When I lived in null sec. I lived in Scalding Pass. I spent 95%+ of my time in Scalding Pass. There were various levels of ore and NPCs available to me, in our sovereignty in Scalding Pass.

That's the way these games work. You go somewhere, you live there, you conduct your business there, you make connections there. It's your home, and you might go adventuring somewhere once in awhile but for the most part, you do everything in the same small geographic region.

You don't need fast travel to play that kind of a game! We don't even need mounts until the map get's bigger. All movement from any location to another should be manual, and I think 5 minutes travel time per hex is plenty sufficient unless the hexes are really small / the map is really large.

Goblin Squad Member

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Hmmm, thanks for the link Nihimon. I still think I'd rather have such a fast travel mechanic actually be players driving the fast travel wagon, and have bandit ambushes be just that, rather than an on-rails, almost scripted affair.

Tangential ideas for "if fast travel wagons were player operated":

These wagons could be fairly valuable themselves, and have a holding capacity which can be filled by goods, players, or a combination of the two. Caravans could be formed of any size, simply by having a train of wagons (much like actual caravans). Attacking a nation's caravan wagons would severely limit their ability to mobilize, and thus be an effective "indirect" war tactic.

Limited to only travelling on roads.

Bandit hideouts would give a warning that a caravan is nearby, but not automatically stop them.

Would give players the opportunity to stop the caravans if something doesn't "feel right"; for example, if they spot a scout. They could also change course mid-trip if they need to, whether turning around completely or choosing a different route at crossroads (though with increased move speed, they should have other limiting factors which prevent them from turning tail as soon as bandits are spotted, such as taking a very long time to "about face" the caravan).

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Shane Gifford wrote:

I'm still hoping they trash the idea of caravan fast travel, and make transporting goods a strictly avatar-based experience. Fast travel seems so lame, and so uninvolved for the merchants.

This is as long as I have the same understanding of fast travel that others do. Is fast travel meant to indicate an instant teleport, an increased speed on-rails wagon that you can't control, or something else?

In general, fast travel in Pathfinder Online will not be instantaneous. Instead, characters that are using fast travel are assumed to be moving at a rate of up to five times normal speed (that is, 20 times real time). Traversing a hex at this rate requires less than a minute. During fast travel, you will not have to direct your character—it will simply move to the destination you've selected.

There's an entire section on Fast Travel at the bottom of that blog.

I've spoken opposition from that to the start and I'm still kind of behind that opposition.

Say Brighthaven, Phaeros, Callambea, Golgotha etc. are scattered all over the map. Pax is having a war with Shadowy Fiends From EVE. Shadowy Fiends From EVE lays siege to Callambea.

Within 20 minutes of that siege being laid armies from every major faction show up to support the sides they want to see win, or scroach the siege (Hang around and attack either side if they present a weakness to get their gear.)

I just really don't want to see that happen here. I would rather see a system where your relationship with your neighbors is incredibly important, and your relationship with the group on the opposite corner of the map really isn't that important. I'd rather have it so if you decide "I want to go to Mosswater!" and you live in Thornkeep, its a bit of an adventure, not just a 20 minute automated trip. I'd rather see resources that come from one area...

I suppose I can understand much of this, but it strikes against much of my desire to play an MMO. This also relates somewhat to the problem PAX brought up about wanting to organizationally include everyone from their CE oriented members to their LG oriented members. When I go to play an MMO online these days, I have friends that also play in those domains and share similar interests and then they also have friends. If I discover two of my good friends are jumping into PFO and joining some Good settlement on the far side of the map because they have more friends that I otherwise do not know over there, then I suddenly have to choose between the new associates I have been making in Brighthaven and TEO or going cross-map to play with my friends.

That is a bad position to be putting people in from a social retention aspect.

Goblin Squad Member

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A relevant post I found while researching something else.

Stand and Deliver as currently conceived doesn't have any control over a target's movement. It's a streamlined trade window without any more power to compel the target to stop than a strongly worded /tell. If you nuisance SAD someone, they can keep moving unhindered. It may have an effective range (like a normal trade window) and if the merchant leaves it, it counts as rejecting it, but we need to look into the tech restrictions and exploit possibilities of doing it that way.

Meanwhile, there's the complementary but not contingent system of hideouts and how they interrupt fast travel. We're still nailing down a lot of that as we get enough tech and map creation done to figure out more detail on how fast travel and private base building are going to work.

But we intend SAD to be something you don't require a hideout to use. If you're wandering in the deep wilderness and see a guy with a bunch of packs visible, you can absolutely send him a SAD rather than just jumping him outright. But if he's significantly faster than you, your SAD may be pretty much meaningless without a nearby base or allies to help you corner him.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
Fast travel seems an option for individuals, not for caravans, but I could be wrong.

I've always had the impression that Caravans would utilize Fast Travel. This doesn't say it outright, but seems to hint that a Teamster would be able to develop skills to increase travel speed.

Getting a wagonload of resources out of the wilderness and back to a civilized area will be a challenge. It would be useful therefore to think about becoming an effective teamster able to drive fast, move quietly, detect threats, and use cover and camouflage to hide.

I'm curious now to know if Fast Travel is intended for use with Caravans.


Nihimon wrote:
I've always had the impression that Caravans would utilize Fast Travel. This doesn't say it outright, but seems to hint that a Teamster would be able to develop skills to increase travel speed.

Caravans, using fast travel? That seems pretty reasonable.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:

Say Brighthaven, Phaeros, Callambea, Golgotha etc. are scattered all over the map. Pax is having a war with Shadowy Fiends From EVE. Shadowy Fiends From EVE lays siege to Callambea.

Within 20 minutes of that siege being laid armies from every major faction show up to support the sides they want to see win...

I'm right there with you, and always have been.

Ideally, I'd love to see slow-moving (relative to player characters) armies of mostly NPCs with supply lines, etc. maneuvering for advantage.

That was quite a while ago, and I realize the "mostly NPCs" part is probably out of the question. However, I'd still like to see something similar.

I wonder if it would be practical to require Formations to be formed at a friendly Settlement, and limit Formations to traveling at normal (or even reduced) speed.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Andius,

I agree completely, fast travel is not needed while the map remains small.

I'm quite hoping the travel takes about 20 minutes per hex. It possibly taking a real time hour to get from one settlement to another.

A quick search for average distance between Medieval settlements was between 1 and 3 miles.

The average speed of a horse drawn cart is about 5 miles per hour (unladen).

The average speed of a human (walking) is about 3.3 miles per hour.

Has there been any mention of hex size?


Andius wrote:

I've spoken opposition from that to the start and I'm still kind of behind that opposition.

Say Brighthaven, Phaeros, Callambea, Golgotha etc. are scattered all over the map. Pax is having a war with Shadowy Fiends From EVE. Shadowy Fiends From EVE lays siege to Callambea.

Within 20 minutes of that siege being laid armies from every major faction show up to support the sides they want to see win, or scroach the siege (Hang around and attack either side if they present a weakness to get their gear.)

I just really don't want to see that happen here.

If there's no lax on the Rep system during open PvP windows around a Settlement, sadly, this couldn't happen anyways (making Settlement warfare a back and forth endeavor see: Pong).

However, I have to agree that any type of fast travel that allows people to send rapid reinforcements is essentially a game destroyer. The only exception to the rule, naturally, would be very high level and dedicated Sorcs/Wizards with a teleport spell. Teleport being so integral to D&D, I would think that if someone spends 18 months dedicated to a Sorcerer or Wizard role, they'd have that ability. Otherwise I'd agree.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
The average speed of a horse drawn cart is about 5 miles per hour (unladen).

I can't be the only one who got that.

Bluddwolf wrote:
Has there been any mention of hex size?
Hexes are about three quarters of a mile from edge to edge...

[Edit] That was before they talked about subdividing Hexes into 7 sub-hexes.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
The average speed of a horse drawn cart is about 5 miles per hour (unladen).
I can't be the only one who got that.

It depends on the average age of the forum goers here. The 40+ crowd just hears the word "unladen" and probably knows the joke.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
The average speed of a horse drawn cart is about 5 miles per hour (unladen).
I can't be the only one who got that.
It depends on the average age of the forum goers here. The 40+ crowd just hears the word "unladen" and probably knows the joke.

But the African Horse is non-migratory.

Goblin Squad Member

Thats why we are talking about a european horse duh.

Goblin Squad Member

I'll admit, it flew right past me until Nihimon pointed it out.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

leperkhaun wrote:
Thats why we are talking about a european horse duh.

It's a simple matter of weight ratios!

Goblin Squad Member

The direction of travel must not be overlooked, especially during the Mistral.

Goblin Squad Member

Well as a king you should know these.....

Players will never be happy with a system that allows a spell like ability to root, snare, or freeze them.

I think a halt function could serve a purpose when a player is approaching a settlement, watchtower, outpost, what have you that you are not affiliated with. There is no reason a CC should have to wait until a group of bandits have walking into there outpost to strike the first blow to avoid rep hits. They should be able to draw their line in the sand so to speak. Cross the line and I KEEEL JUU, OK now this is the my line.

On fast travel I would expect the same restrictions as most games. I don't like it for the most part, but it does have a place with magic users. Instant travel via city stones like the Plain of Knowledge in EQ was the same thing as throwing away content. Expendables that are quite expensive relative to player level are reasonable if they only return you to a city where you have positive faction. Point to point speed boosts are also reasonable as long as they are limited to major features. All just my two cents worth I don't have strong feelings about any but the instant travel ala POK breaks the game in my opinion.

Goblin Squad Member

NONE SHALL PASS!!!

(It's on topic, halt commands and stuff)

Goblin Squad Member

MTX Store: Grail-shaped beacon. GoblinWorks supplants Blizzard.

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin wrote:
MTX Store: Grail-shaped beacon. GoblinWorks supplants Blizzard.

Thank you Proxima for illustrating the 'strike' command pair! I've needed it several times but never figured that one out!

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:


Assist

Assist is a targeted ability you can use on anyone by characters of any alignment. When an assist is issued there is a brief fanfare and greening of the screen followed by a pop up (at the bottom right of the GUI by default) that asks if you would like to accept the assist. You can either manually click yes or no, bind hotkeys to those option or set youself to automatically accept or reject all assist requests. Default for new characters is set to auto-accept all but they are made aware of this during their starter quests.

When you assist someone you are treated as a member if their group for the purposes of sharing beneficial effects and who is marked as hostile to you. It goes without saying you are also penalized for their behaviors the same way you are if you heal / buff etc. someone who commits a misdeed. Unlike grouping with them however, they do not share hostility with targets who are hostile to you. Also, should you attack them or one of their group members the assist condition immediately ends and you are assessed a significant rep penalty.

The benefits you can get for training in assists depend a lot on your class but may include things such as:

• Increased health regeneration on the target.
• Redirection of a portion of the damage the target receives to you.
• Damage reduction.
• Immunity to your AoEs or transfer of your AoE damage from them and their party members to you. (Thus avoiding accidental betrayal.)
• Running or attack speed buffs.

The assist condition immediately end if you leave the area of the target. You may only assist one target at a time. Assists can be used to buff players who are already in your party

Actually I like the idea behind an "assist" mechanic. Not so much the buffs, but it might be a simpler solution to the problem of not being able to aid someone.

If it could be rewritten so that it gives no advantage, I could get behind it. Simply an offer to aid the assaulted if within shouting distance. Don't make it any more than the chance to assist (no extra buffs needed until you see what SAD gives) and it could be useful.

Though it might still be a rarely useable option if bandits are careful about their targets. That could make it a risk to take the time to code in.

Still not onboard with "Halt". I think that it would be used, could easily be abused, and would end up being very annoying.

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