Where's Marc Radle with a link to the New Paths Compendium???
Anyway, we have the Sacred Thaumaturge for our viewing pleasure. It might provide some ideas or design paths you might like or want to avoid. Note that it has very recently undergone a revision and will be released in an free Arcane Masters I PDF likely within the week...
I think you are better off using a single list that includes spells of both divine and arcane magic, blending together much like the witch does.
Poor BAB
Good will saves
Prime casting stat charisma
2 skills per level, but give free rank of spellcraft per rank or something similar.
Slow BAB progression.
Maybe two full 9 level spell lists? You are creating a full spellcasting class. Or the better option might be it's own spell list like what AnnoyingOrange said, which will probably work better.
I'm thinking that maybe your highest mental score is your primary one (I don't know how good that would be)? Or if you do a dual spell list thing you could do something similar to the Sacred Thaumaturge where you have two (sorta) casting stats.
Probably 2 maybe 4 + Int skills ranks per level.
Good Will, poor Fort and Ref.
Other than that, you might want to steal (if you haven't already) the mystic theurge abilities because they fit pretty well with the idea (who knew right?).
For some extra stuff, you'd probably get a domain and a familiar/bonded object, probably combine the wizard's and cleric's bonus languages abilities, no channel energy or arcane school, they would get whatever you would call their version of orisons or cantrips. They'd probably get scribe scroll as a bonus feat. Maybe/maybe not get the bonus feats like a wizard, and I don't know what to do with spontaneous casting either. Chaotic/Evil/Good/Lawful spells is a must have likely, and I'm not sure if the class should or shouldn't have a spellbook :/
Mind you all that stuffs just wizard and cleric stuff and you probably shouldn't limit yourself by just taking abilities and other things from those classes.
Ehh, I'm going to make a table and a character using this and see how good or bad it is right now. I'll come back with results (I hope).
I actually like two spell lists, each with its own stat.
Should I just take the wizard and cleric lists as they are? That seems really powerful. What, if anything, should I leave out?
Well, it might be powerful but they'd share the same spells per day at least. Maybe you just get less spells to choose from each day or something. Like diminished spellcasting? Might not fully balance it out but at least it's a start.
Okay! Here it is! A draftamajig of what it might be. Hopefully you will like it.
Mystic Theurge
[Insert Flavour Text here.]
[Insert Role here.]
Alignment: A mystic theurge's alignment must be within one step of his deity's, if any. They are usually neutral.
Starting Wealth:
Class Skills
The mystic theurge's class skills are Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device(?) (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Table: Mystic Theurge
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special (Spells per Day) 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Arcane Bond, magic domain, orisons, Scribe Scroll 3 1+1 - - - - - - - -
2 +1 +0 +0 +3 4 2+1 - - - - - - - -
3 +1 +1 +1 +3 4 2+1 1+1 - - - - - - -
4 +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 - - - - - - -
5 +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 1+1 - - - - - -
6 +3 +2 +2 +5 4 3+1 3+1 2+1 - - - - - -
7 +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 - - - - -
8 +4 +2 +2 +6 4 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 - - - - -
9 +4 +3 +3 +6 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 - - - -
10 +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 - - - -
11 +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 - - -
12 +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 - - -
13 +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 - -
14 +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 - -
15 +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 -
16 +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 -
17 +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
18 +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
19 +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1
20 +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Spell Synthesis 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1
Class Features
The following are the class features for the mystic theurge.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency
Mystic Theurge's are proficient with all simple weapons, but not with any type of armour or shield. Armour interferes with a mystic theurge's movements, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.
Spells
A mystic theurge casts both arcane and divine spells drawn from the cleric spell list and the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A mystic theurge must choose and prepare spells ahead of time. To learn(?), prepare, or cast a spell from the cleric spell list, a mystic theurge must have a wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. To learn(?), prepare, or cast a spell for the sorcerer/wizard spell list, a mystic theurge must have an intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mystic theurge's spell is 10 + the spell level + the mystic theurge's intelligence or wisdom modifier (intelligence for spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, and wisdom for spells from the cleric spell list).
Like other spellcasters, a mystic theurge can cast only a certain amount of spells per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Mystic Theurge. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high intelligence or wisdom score, whichever is highest (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A mystic theurge must spend 1 hour each day [studying his spell book in quiet contemplation or supplication] to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a mystic theurge can prepare spells. A mystic theurge may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list and sorcerer/wizard spell list [if he doesn't have a spellbook], provided that she can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation [and/or study].
[Not sure if they get a spellbook or do it like a cleric…]
Magic Domain
[Not sure if they actually get a domain.] At 1st level, a mystic theurge gains the Magic Domain and both the Arcane and Divine subdomain, but you lose both the hand of the acolyte and the dispelling touch abilities and gain both the arcane beacon and divine vessel abilities. If you have a deity, it must be one who has the Magic domain. The mystic theurge's effective cleric level is equal to his mystic theurge level. [Might instead do it as you get either the arcane beacon or the divine vessel ability, or you can jut choose to have the base domain or the base and one of the subdomains or something]
Arcane Bond
[Not sure if they actually get an arcane bond. Maybe something similar?] At 1st level, mystic theurge's form a powerful bond with an object or a creature. This ability functions like the wizard's ability of the same name. A mystic theurge's effective wizard level is equal to [half or something?] his mystic theurge level [(minimum 1)].
Orisons/Cantrips
Mystic Theurge's can prepare a number of orisons/cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Mystic Theurge under "Spells per day." These spells are treated like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
Scribe Scroll
At 1st level, a mystic theurge gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.
Bonus Langauges
A mystic theurge's bonus language options include Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, and Draconic (the languages of good, lawful evil, and chaotic evil outsiders, and dragons, respectively). These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of her race.
[Not sure if they should get bonus feats. Probably not.]
[Combined Spells will not get added as it is right now because it doesn't work with the class at this current point in time.]
Spell Synthesis
At 20th level, a mystic theurge can cast two spells, one from his cleric spell list and one from his sorcerer/wizard spell list, using one action. Both of the spells must have the same casting time. The mystic theurge can make any decisions concerning the spells independently. Any target affected by both of the spells takes a -2 penalty on saves made against each spell. The mystic theurge receives a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with these two spells. A mystic theurge may use this ability once per day. [Maybe have it as just two spells at the same time? Other than that, it falls into the same hole as combined spells because of how spells work for this class.]
Things in square brackets [] are like editors notes or whatever. They're me typing things, not the actual classes things.
I like the combined list idea, I'm not sure why that didn't occur to me.
Why 2+INT with bonus Spellcraft and why CHA? I just want to know your reasoning.
2+int because both the wizard, cleric and MT get 2 per level. Besides it is a casting class not skill based.
I'd base the casting stat on charisma because it is the default ability for magic and supernatural stuff (SLA, UMD) and can be associated with arcane or divine both.
Both wisdom and intelligence works if you don't mind having two casting stats. What are you then going to do with bonus spells though ?
Now, how do you balance a caster that gets access to two spell lists ?
Basically would not everyone want to trade wizard class abilities to get access to both spell lists ?
I suggest to take the wizard casting progression and reduce the number of spells at every spell level by 1. (but not cantrips/orizons)
Give the MT bonus spells based on wisdom and intelligence, this should even spells out with other full casters at low level, at higher levels this will focus the MT more on lower level spells, since that is what most bonus spells come from.
Basically spell progression of:
0
1
1-0
2-1
3-2
3-2-0
3-3-1
3-3-1-0
3-3-2-1
etc. (from the top of my head so I might have made a mistake)
I'd not give a domain, it is already tricky to balance this class against the wizard without extra spells per day.
I'd definitely go with wizard weapon proficiencies by the way, this is not someone that typically has had much martial training at all being purely focused on research, spirituality and magic.
Compared to the wizard this MT would at 1st lvl get:
* 1 divine and 1 arcane spell (with int and wis 12-19)
* Cantrips and Orisons free to pick either
* Scribe scroll
Wizard gets the same number of spells (not a specialist)
* 1 spell + 1 bonus spell (with int 12-19)
* arcane bond
* hand of the apprentice
* scribe scroll
Seems like a fair match to start out from, the MT has no school power and basically starts out with 1 spell less, but has versatility. It is a little weaker, but an extra domain seems a little too much. I'd have a list of mystic talents to choose from instead.
A little extra something at 1st should be fine, like hand of the apprentice using int or wis. Not sure how it will hold up over the other levels, but think it would be ok to follow the universalist wizard as a base.
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Where's Marc Radle with a link to the New Paths Compendium???.
Ha! You rang? :) The New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press has indeed officially been announced :)
The New Paths Compendium collects all the New Paths classes into a brand new print/pdf book with a completely new layout and organization - the classes themselves are all together in a Classes chapter, all the archetypes and spells get their own chapters, as do all the feats (close to 100 of 'em!)
In addition, there are a number of cool, brand-new things inside - 2 of which are exclusive to this book, including the theurge, a base class that combines arcane and divine in new and interesting ways!
New Paths Compendium includes:
- All the New Path classes, including the theurge, savant and skin-changer
- 28 new archetypes for monks, ninjas, gunslingers, barbarians, fighters, clerics, and 7 Compendium classes
- 7 tracking sheets for animal companions, favored enemies, prepared spells, summoned monsters and more
- 20 new spells for druids, rangers, shaman, and more
- Almost 100 new feats for new and existing classes
Please be sure to check out the book and the new Theurge class in particar! :)
You might want to check out the Iconodule - and also the link to what an "iconodule" is irl. Love the weirdness of early Christianity. :o
Class Abilities
This is a wizard archetype. This archetype has all normal class abilities, except as noted.
Clerical Studies
At 1st level, an iconodule adds all cleric orisons (zero level cleric spells) to his spell list. An iconodule begins play with three orisons of his choice in his spell book, plus an additional number of orisons equal to his Wisdom modifier. He can add additional orisons to his spellbooks as if they were wizard spells. An iconodule can use divine spell-trigger devices, such as scrolls, as long as the spell to be used is on his spell list.
At 2th level, and every 2 levels thereafter, add another level of cleric spells to the iconodule's spell list. This begins with 1st level cleric spells at level 2 and finishes by adding 9th level cleric spells to the spell list at 18th level.
An iconodule must have access to his bonded icon to prepare spells gained from this ability.
This replaces arcane school.
Bonded Icon
Icondodules begin play with a bonded icon at no cost. A bonded icon is a holy symbol of any type with special significance to the iconodule. It must must be held in one hand to be used. If an icondodule attempts to cast a spell without his bonded icon in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for this check is equal to 20 + the spell's level.
A bonded icon can be used once per day to cast any one cleric spell of a level the iconodule is capable of casting, even if the spell is not recoded in his spellbook. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the icondodule, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the icondodule's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities.
If a bonded icon is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the icondodule prepares his spells. If a bonded icon is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per icondodule level. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
This replaces arcane bond.
Bonus Languages
An inconodule's bonus language options include Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal (the languages of good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil outsiders, respectively). These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of her race and replaces the bonus languages of the wizard.
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells
An icondodule can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.
Table: Iconodule
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Spells per Day
0+1 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Bonded icon, cantrips, clerical studies (orisons), Scribe Scroll 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Clerical Studies (1st) 4 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Clerical Studies (2nd) 4 3 2 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Bonus feat 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Clerical Studies (3rd) 4 3 3 2 — — — — — —
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Clerical Studies (4th) 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Bonus feat, clerical Studies (5th) 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Clerical Studies (6th) 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — —
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Clerical Studies (7th) 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — —
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Bonus feat 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Clerical Studies (8th) 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Clerical Studies (9th) 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Bonus feat 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4