Barbarian Damage Reduction Question

[tcharleschapman]

I posted this question on another Thread but I don't think anyone read to the bottom to see my question so I'm asking it again here. For the original post and discussion that sparked this, please head here.

Some background. A guy was looking for input on his Barbarian Gnome. One guy offered maxing out Damage Reduction. I loved that idea. However, I need to ask some questions pertaining to the following passage from Ranroel:

Ranroel wrote:

you have 10HP. with Greater Stalwart and Improved DR rage powerx3 you have DR 36/nonlethal, DR 18/-. You get hit for 49 damage. Guarded Life activates and turns 22 of that damage into nonlethal damage, leaving you with 27 damage. DR negates the nonlethal damage an 18 lethal, meaning you take 9 points of damage.

this is at the price of -4 to hit.

1) Using the Invulnerable Rager with 3 x Increased DR Rage Power and Improved Stalwart I only arrive at DR 17/- at level 12 using Combat Expertise. He arrived at DR 18/- at level 11. Also, at level 11 Combat expertise is only a -3/+3 trade-off and he would only have access to Improved DR twice so the total DR would only be 13. Is my math wrong or is the original post? Or am I way off and he is actually going Total Defense with at least 3 ranks in Acrobatics making it impossible to attack in the end? And if taking Total Defense how would you even attack, or would you just be holding the line?

2) Guarded life makes it sound like once you hit 0 it kicks in, not before. Using that math, with the original stats displayed, I see the following: Original Damage is 49. You subtract your DR 18/- and are left with 31 points of damage and the original 10 HP. Then you take 10 points of damage which drops you to 0 HP at which point Guarded Life kicks in converting the last 21 points of damage into Nonlethal damage which is negated by the DR 36/lethal. In the end you should be left at 0 HP and Disabled, or am I reading that wrong?

3) It seems odd that you can take damage from one hit and, after you hit 0, convert it to Nonlethal and then negate that. Do those stack?

Thanks for any help. If I end up using this character I want to make sure I'm clear on the rules when a GM keeps wailing on my little gnome and he just won't die.

[Claxon]

He could use total defense which would grant a +4 dodge bonus to AC which becomes a +4 DR/-, which with improved stalwart would be +8. However, an invulnerabel rager barbarian at level 12 would only have 6 DR from class levels, and selecting Increased Damage Reduciton 3 times would make it 9. 9+8 is still only DR 17/-.

Though, with enough ranks in acrobatic the dodge bonus granted from figthing defesnively is 3 instead of 2 and for total defense is 6 instead of 4.

I'm not sure exactly how he got it to add up, but it is feasible to get it that high using total defense. At level 11 an invulenerable rager, having taken Increased Damage Reduction Twice, haveing the needed ranks in Acrobatics, having Improved Stalwart you would get 5 (Invulnerable Rager) + 2 (Increased DR) + 6*2(Improved Stalwart Total Defense with Acrobatics). This would be DR 19/-.

[tcharleschapman]

Thanks Claxon. Improved Stalwart maxes at DR 10/-. That helps.

I guess there really is no feasible way to get a DR 19/- and still be able to attack in the same round until Combat Expertise turns into +5/-5, which will never happen in PFS.

What about the other two questions?

[Driver 325 yards]

tcharleschapman wrote:

2) Guarded life makes it sound like once you hit 0 it kicks in, not before. Using that math, with the original stats displayed, I see the following: Original Damage is 49. You subtract your DR 18/- and are left with 31 points of damage and the original 10 HP. Then you take 10 points of damage which drops you to 0 HP at which point Guarded Life kicks in converting the last 21 points of damage into Nonlethal damage which is negated by the DR 36/lethal. In the end you should be left at 0 HP and Disabled, or am I reading that wrong?

You are correct that Gaurded Life kicks in when you HPs hits 0 and you are correct in your order of operation.

The only argument I have ever seen against this is when people argue that you can't apply 2 damage reductions to the same attack. However, such an argument finds no support in the rules anywhere.

[Shin Bilirubin]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

The only argument I have ever seen against this is when people argue that you can't apply 2 damage reductions to the same attack. However, such an argument finds no support in the rules anywhere.

You mean this:

d20pfsrd wrote:

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

[Driver 325 yards]

Shin Bilirubin wrote:

Driver 325 yards wrote:

The only argument I have ever seen against this is when people argue that you can't apply 2 damage reductions to the same attack. However, such an argument finds no support in the rules anywhere.

You mean this:

d20pfsrd wrote:

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Yes, this is the argument that I am talking about. People derive the incorrect implication from the quote you point to.

The rules are talking about damage reduction that apply to the same type of damage. In this case, we are talking about lethal damage and nonlethal damage. There is no stacking involved.

It doesn't make any more sense to say that lethal damage reduction and nonlethal damage reduction are stacking when you apply them to their corresponding damage types than it would to say the cold resistance and electric resistance stack when you apply them to their corresponding damage types.

Stated differently, if you are hit by a sword that does 10 electric and 10 fire and you have resistances to both of 10 then you avoid the electric and fire damage. This is not stacking.

If you take 20 fire damage and you have a racial resistance 10 against fire and have armor on that provides 10 resistance to fire, you can't stack them. You still take 10 fire damage.

Damage Reduction lethal and nonlethal are like the first example - absent a FAQ that erratas the rules.